Liverpool FC Forum

by **Thommo's perm** » Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:44 pm

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:34 pm wrote:
Thommo's perm

Any ar'sehole can look for negatives. Theyre not hard to find.
Slagging someone off takes no effort whatsoever. Its like moaning, it comes naturally to most people because its not difficult to do.
Go on facebook or twitter, listen to phone ins, read the papers: moan, moan, Fu*king moan. "I dont like him", "He's sh'it", "He's clueless" "He's not good enough" on and on ad nauseum. There is no easy solution to the situation we are in. But SOMEONE'S got to try and get us back on an even keel. Someone has to take charge and try and steer us back on track to where we want to be. Not Gandalf, or Merlin or any other cu'nt with a magic wand, but a real, passionate, hard working man who believes and has a vision. Someone who is willing to take chances and change things. Someone who will have the balls to make mistakes and take the flack on behalf of the team. Someone who is desperate to put LFC back where the fans know we belong. Someone who "gets us"
Criticise all you want but youre wasting your time wishing and dreaming that Mourhino will arrive on a white horse and save the day. Rodgers is the new Shankly and people would be better off looking for positives and giving him their support rather than constantly whinging like arl women

i think in the future rodgers might make a good manager but at the moment he`s got a lot to learn.
for a start he`s got to learn to be a bit more pragmatic, the game at the very top is all about winning, `first is first and second is nowhere` as shanks put it, no one gets a trophy for playing the best footy.
top managers like benitez and mourinho both grew up in countries were the culture is to pass the ball but it didnt stop them having the likes of drogba, carew, crouch etc in their teams and we are talking about a pair of champions league winning coaches here.
hypothetically speaking say we played against a team with a couple of 5 foot 2 centre halves and we had carroll in the squad, we know rodgers wouldnt play him, even though there is an obvious weakness in the opposition he wouldnt try to exploit it because it goes against his `philosophy`.
i think thats crazy, bill shankly won our first ever european trophy by spotting a weakness in the opposition defence and pumping high balls into john toshack. thats not being ale house thats being smart. shankly was the man who invented the `pass and move philosophy`, he`s a million miles away from long ball merchants like dave bassett or tony pulis but he also knew you had to exploit weaknesses in the opposition when they were there.
it`s alright us having mobile quick forwards but what happens if the opposition defence is full of mobile quick defenders? say the opposition defence is made up of 4 bertie vogts? do we flog a dead horse all day or do we try to change tack?
rodgers has only been in management 4 years and he`s had a lot of pats on the back for his style of play so it`s understandable that he wants to keep doing the same things that have got him so many plaudits and seen him get one of the most prestigeous jobs in world football but he`s at the top now and the only thing that matters is results.
he`s making it far too easy for other managers to read him, after the arsenal game at anfield one of the mods posted a tactical analysis of the game in the after match thread and although i think tactics are a bit over rated that analysis was startling, wenger absolutely read us like a book and you can be sure every team that plays us is going to use that as a blueprint.
on sunday you could sense the frustration in pardew because it was only a piece of sublime individual brilliance from suarez that stopped the plan from working again. he actually said in his after match interview that his plan was working great and at half time he thought he`d won.
it`s not a coincidence why we seem to struggle to score in every game and keep getting hit on the break.
rodgers needs to get smart and mix his game up, his philosophy is 90% right, he just needs to add pragmatism to it.

Your first line sums it up perfectly if you change "might" for "will"
:;):

by **Thommo's perm** » Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:50 pm

ethanr » Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:19 pm wrote:
The Raven » Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:43 pm wrote:
Couldn't have said it better myself.

I absolutely love Rodgers. I think he's a class manager, a class person, and an absolute role model when it comes to the way he works. I think he's a really smart manager who believes in the proper way to play football, and I believe that he believes he will be here for 30 years, will have a few generations of players who truly believe in what he's doing and will love Liverpool, and will win lots of trophies. I wish I could see 5 years down the line to be honest, because I think he's here for the long-run. We've been extremely unfortunate this season, but we have played some brilliant football. We'll see come January if we make the right choices in the market, and as he continues to tweak little things I think it will work out well for him.

So far I've been beyond impressed with what he's done with the player's he's got at his disposal.

Wow.

He is class why? What has he ever done to be "class" he is at best uproven at worst underqualified.

A role model? did you see the way he treated carroll? even worse going to press to slag of downing?

Just beacuse he wants to play nice football does not mean he is the second coming.

Beyond impressed? You really think that? my god! He has done nothing apart from blood some young talent that impresses me. Hes loss record is worse than roys, he seems to love talking to the press, and we are 6 points above the bottom 3 at xmas.

All he does is talk down (like roy) about how 4 years wont be enough to turn the club around yadda yadda.

Nobody's perfect, and the Carroll situation was really his one negative mark. But what's he supposed to do? He didn't think Carroll would work in his system, and he didn't want to flat out lie to fans, so it was hard for him to handle the Carroll situation He can't just say Carroll doesn't work, we're trying to move him on. It would destroy the player and the player's value. He didn't slag off downing, the media did. All he's said is his players knows where they stand, and the media turned that into slagging off Downing, he never used names, and he has every right to talk about his club like that. This is consistently the best football we have played in years, and he's done it with only a few top-class players, and 3 players under the age of 20.

I mean honestly, We have Suarez who's playing really well under his system, Rodgers has figured out what works best for Suarez. We have Reina in the back having a shocking season and thats got nothing to do with Rogers. Agger and Skrtel are both playing well. Johnson's playing much better than last season. Enrique's form has been horrible so we've resorted to using Wisdom, Our 3 in the center have, for the most part played really well together as we've out possessed almost every club we've played. Our 2 outside attackers are both young and yet have put in good performances against some top clubs. Even with Lucas out and Shelvey filling in the middle, we really have done alright. If it weren't for some players individual mistakes, and quite a few calls gone against us, we'd be near, if not in the top 4.

Against United, if the ref had gotten the red fairly called, we would have won that game.
Against City, Skrtel made a horrible back pass, that's 2 lost points.
Against Arsenal, we didn't play all that well, but Mertesacker should have seen red and we would have had a pen to tie the game. No way we would have lost that one.
Bad call against Everton is 2 lost points.

Two mistakes that we can clearly choose lost points from, against City and Everton, that's 4 points, no if's and's or but's. Out of all the mistakes you can make that's 2 that have cost us 4 points. We'd be on 15 just below the top 4, and that still doesn't do justice to what our performances have deserved.

Well said. We are as good as any team in the league on our day
:nod

by **woof woof !** » Tue Nov 06, 2012 6:05 pm

Well said. We are as good as any team in the league on our day

Problem is "our day" has rapidly become few and far between.

Never mind, let's just blame it on "bad luck"

by **tubby** » Tue Nov 06, 2012 6:14 pm

I don't think the Carroll situation was bad. He failed to deliver and had ample time and number of opportunities to make his mark. He was a victim of short run of forum and FSG fell for it. Ultimately he can't play the game Rogers wants so the best thing to do is for people to go their own way and forget about it.

by **parchpea** » Tue Nov 06, 2012 6:31 pm

Rodgers is criticised for offloading Carroll but you get the impression he had to shift wages to
lower costs and this was the only way he could raise a transfer kitty. Other big wage departures
included Acquilani, Kuyt and Maxi and a host lower down the pecking order.

Last week Rodgers showed his frustration by having a dig at Cole who himself is a player holding
back funds by claiming a huge wage for no return. Its clear our manager has to clear out before
he can bring in with FSG now looking to claw back the transfer money spent under Dagger and
Hodgson before they have the bottle to have another crack at it.

If anything the rebuild has happended far too quickly but when you are in a position of having
to lose players to buy as a new manager you really can do little else to at least put a small
marker down to start building your own team.

In some ways I think Rodgers had an escape with Siguardsson and Dempsey who have not really
produced at Spurs so lack of funds may have helpded him on those two deals, but overall the
lads got a hell of a job on meeting expectation whilst trying to lower running costs and facilitate
a leaner more cost efficient sports club at the same time.

Our owners beleive you can be competitive if you run a club smart and professionally but I personally
do not share that outlook and unless they are willing to speculate on some level then Liverpool will
find it extremely difficult going in the Premier League even withstanding the Fair Play rules that
John Henry and Werner have placed so much faith in.

The trouble is do Liverpool fans really have the heart to keep the faith with this long term plan after
so many years already gone as an also ran in Premiership terms. Its one hell of an ask but then again
we dont really have an option with our American masters holding the keys to Anfield and calling
the tune from across the pond.

by **Thommo's perm** » Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:04 pm

woof woof ! » Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:05 pm wrote:
Well said. We are as good as any team in the league on our day

Problem is "our day" has rapidly become few and far between.

Never mind, let's just blame it on "bad luck"

Its not "just" bad luck, although we have had more than our fair share

by **RED BEERGOGGLES** » Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:23 pm

If we're talking specifically about the attributes Rodgers tactics bring to our game ,then we can start by his unyielding persistence in adhering to his principles.
I can only applaud his stubbornness in playing the game the way he believes it should be played ,because not once has he deviated from these values .

Rodgers looks comfortable in interviews ,he talks with an eloquence and confidence rarely associated with managers who have yet to win honours in this game ,but when he talks people listen ... His methodology however alien it may seem to a media desperately waiting to ridicule the man ,has a ring of truth about it
especially to us auld arses who've bore witness to some of the very best managers this game has seen .

Last season and probably a few seasons before that ,fans (especially on this site ) wanted a manager in the Mourinho mould ,who would make decisions that
would leave even the real readers of the game THE FANS nonplussed .

Well guess what ? If the game against the Bitters doesn't prove how innovative a manager Rodgers is,then I fail to see a clearer example occurring this season.

I was completely lost for an explanation when he made those substitutions ,but then again I don't aspire to management ,but still the substitutions came early
and completely altered the course of that game .

One argument is the reds so called predictability ,this particular debate falls flat on its proverbial arse when you think about the top managers who
have failed to stop our fluid movement and constant forcing of teams to defend their own area for large parts of the game ... Ferguson was clueless ,Mancini
equally hapless,and Pardew made to look like Joe Royal was back with his "Dogs Of War " .

Only Arsenal and West Brom got the measure of the reds ,and that was because we were for want of a better description inept in one game and bullied in the next ..... Second argument is we're a one man team with Suarez are only striker ,but Suarez would be just as vital and exciting in any team ,he makes those
charges into the box oblivious of the support around him ,and his sheer single mindedness is something I have never seen from a player.

Anyway ,this post is all about Rodgers and the qualities he brings to this team ,and so far even given our standing in the table I believe he was the right choice
to bring us kicking and screaming back to firstly credibility ,and then clawing our eventual way back to greatness.

YNWA

by **ycsatbjywtbiastkamb** » Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:42 pm

RBG that derby game changed the moment miralles went off, i think your giving rodgers way too much credit.
in the second half everton dominated the midfield and we were reduced to hoofing the ball upfield to 2 five foot 7 forwards in suarez and sterling. thats not a tactical genuis to me.
and i dont think he`s this great communicator that you try to make him out to be, he handled the carroll situation terribly in pre season by saying one thing then another and he did the same with agger too, one minute saying he`s going nowhere and just as every liverpool fan breathes a sigh of relief thinking danny`s staying rodgers comes out and says every player has his price.
one minute he`s saying `the title challenge starts here` then 2 weeks later he said it will probably take 4 years for us to challenge for the top 4 never mind the title! this was all before a ball was kicked.
even the game this weekend, i watched the pre and post match interviews last night and the difference was amazing, before the game he was all excited saying if we win this we are right in the mix for the top four and after the game he was `this is going to take years`.
he contradicts himself all the time. he`s like houllier. i just switch off now when he speaks because i know he`ll say the exact opposite in a week.

by **RED BEERGOGGLES** » Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:22 pm

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:42 pm wrote:RBG that derby game changed the moment miralles went off, i think your giving rodgers way too much credit.
in the second half everton dominated the midfield and we were reduced to hoofing the ball upfield to 2 five foot 7 forwards in suarez and sterling. thats not a tactical genuis to me.
and i dont think he`s this great communicator that you try to make him out to be, he handled the carroll situation terribly in pre season by saying one thing then another and he did the same with agger too, one minute saying he`s going nowhere and just as every liverpool fan breathes a sigh of relief thinking danny`s staying rodgers comes out and says every player has his price.
one minute he`s saying `the title challenge starts here` then 2 weeks later he said it will probably take 4 years for us to challenge for the top 4 never mind the title! this was all before a ball was kicked.
even the game this weekend, i watched the pre and post match interviews last night and the difference was amazing, before the game he was all excited saying if we win this we are right in the mix for the top four and after the game he was `this is going to take years`.
he contradicts himself all the time. he`s like houllier. i just switch off now when he speaks because i know he`ll say the exact opposite in a week.

I think you're affording him little space to make these supposed errors ,lets take for instance the Carroll situation ,Its common knowledge the owners wanted
him gone as they apportioned a large part of the blame for our subsequent failures last season on the Big Man . So lets say you're a new manager who needs
to keep the owners on side and of course the fans in order to implement your ideas .....How would you in your obvious infinite wisdom have resolved keeping both parties happy ? I don't mean to be facetious ,but you seem to have all the answers .

As for Houllier being even remotely similar to Rodgers ,well that's just plain ridiculous Houllier played on the counter attack ,and there was never a consistency
between attack and defence like Rodgers is trying to establish ..... You do have a penchant for comparing managers when maybe the time has arrived to just
forget our past failures and allow us to support Rodgers implicitly and afford him the rare commodity of being his own man ?

by **7_Kewell** » Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:17 pm

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:42 pm wrote:RBG that derby game changed the moment miralles went off, i think your giving rodgers way too much credit.
in the second half everton dominated the midfield and we were reduced to hoofing the ball upfield to 2 five foot 7 forwards in suarez and sterling. thats not a tactical genuis to me.
and i dont think he`s this great communicator that you try to make him out to be, he handled the carroll situation terribly in pre season by saying one thing then another and he did the same with agger too, one minute saying he`s going nowhere and just as every liverpool fan breathes a sigh of relief thinking danny`s staying rodgers comes out and says every player has his price.
one minute he`s saying `the title challenge starts here` then 2 weeks later he said it will probably take 4 years for us to challenge for the top 4 never mind the title! this was all before a ball was kicked.
even the game this weekend, i watched the pre and post match interviews last night and the difference was amazing, before the game he was all excited saying if we win this we are right in the mix for the top four and after the game he was `this is going to take years`.
he contradicts himself all the time. he`s like houllier. i just switch off now when he speaks because i know he`ll say the exact opposite in a week.

lad, you've got a short memory if you think that BR is poor at tactics and media handling. He's miles ahead of what we were doing last season and a clear improvement to anyone who wants to see it.

by **ycsatbjywtbiastkamb** » Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:49 pm

RED BEERGOGGLES » Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:22 pm wrote:
ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:42 pm wrote:RBG that derby game changed the moment miralles went off, i think your giving rodgers way too much credit.
in the second half everton dominated the midfield and we were reduced to hoofing the ball upfield to 2 five foot 7 forwards in suarez and sterling. thats not a tactical genuis to me.
and i dont think he`s this great communicator that you try to make him out to be, he handled the carroll situation terribly in pre season by saying one thing then another and he did the same with agger too, one minute saying he`s going nowhere and just as every liverpool fan breathes a sigh of relief thinking danny`s staying rodgers comes out and says every player has his price.
one minute he`s saying `the title challenge starts here` then 2 weeks later he said it will probably take 4 years for us to challenge for the top 4 never mind the title! this was all before a ball was kicked.
even the game this weekend, i watched the pre and post match interviews last night and the difference was amazing, before the game he was all excited saying if we win this we are right in the mix for the top four and after the game he was `this is going to take years`.
he contradicts himself all the time. he`s like houllier. i just switch off now when he speaks because i know he`ll say the exact opposite in a week.

I think you're affording him little space to make these supposed errors ,lets take for instance the Carroll situation ,Its common knowledge the owners wanted
him gone as they apportioned a large part of the blame for our subsequent failures last season on the Big Man . So lets say you're a new manager who needs
to keep the owners on side and of course the fans in order to implement your ideas .....How would you in your obvious infinite wisdom have resolved keeping both parties happy ? I don't mean to be facetious ,but you seem to have all the answers .

As for Houllier being even remotely similar to Rodgers ,well that's just plain ridiculous Houllier played on the counter attack ,and there was never a consistency
between attack and defence like Rodgers is trying to establish ..... You do have a penchant for comparing managers when maybe the time has arrived to just
forget our past failures and allow us to support Rodgers implicitly and afford him the rare commodity of being his own man ?

i compared him to houllier in the sense that he waffles, remember houlliers classics like we are ten games away from greatness, cheyrou is the new zidane, we have turned a corner etc?
listening to rodgers boldly proclaim one minute that `the title challenge starts here` and then hear him say the next minute `it`s going to take 4 years to even challenge for a top 4 place` reminds me of the stuff houllier used to come up with.
they are poles apart in terms of philosophy and rodgers teams are a lot better to watch than houlliers i`m not denying that.
although to be fair to houllier (and i wasnt his biggest fan) he did win the F.A cup, 2 league cups, the uefa cup, european super cup and even managed to finish second in the league one year.
people forget that we had to beat some good sides to win that uefa cup as well.
we beat capello`s roma who were top of the italian league at the time with players like cafu, battistuta, montella, emerson, tommasi, samuel etc in their line up and we also beat barcelona as well with pepe reina in goal and the likes of rivaldo, guardiola, puyol, overmars, de boer, cocu, kluivert in their starting XI and xavi on the bench.
infact in the 5 years houllier was in sole charge we finished 4th, 3rd, 2nd, 5th then 4th, which by the standard of the last few years is quite good!
plus he did sign some good players ( hyypia, hamaan, riise, anelka, litmanen etc) and brought through the likes of gerrard and carragher.
people are proclaiming rodgers a genuis already and he has got miles to go before he even matches someone like houlliers record, and ged isnt really remembered as one of our greats but his record is respectable.
rodgers has done nothing in the game.

by **Thommo's perm** » Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:16 am

He's been dropped in the deep end of a swimming pool of sh'it.
Hicks and Gilet, Rafa going, Hogdson arriving, FSG arriving, Hodson going, KK arriving, KK going, Commoli going, millions spent, being attacked from all sides because of the Suarez witch hunt, Carroll going, no replacement striker, injuries and having to play kids.The list is endless.
The mans stepped up to the plate and is trying his best to turn us into a force before its too late. Thats right, before its too late, because unless he gets support from the fans and money from the owners we are well and truly fu'cked.
Then people will know what mid table mediocrity really is.
Sheeeeesh!
:no

by **red till i die!!** » Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:38 am

as bad as last season was we were 7 points better off after 10 games and 6 places higher up the table.
we were playing some great stuff also and could have been better if carroll and suarez gelled.we kept on frustrating ourselves with bad finishing and had a similar run of draws. its also coming up to a year since lucas got that injury and then our fortunes changed.
fsg failed to spend in january and again in the summer and now we are seeing the result of that and i hope they are also. january and the summer will be crucial for this club and its intentions.if they fail to back the manager then we are looking at years in the wilderness because he will be forced to sell stars to gamble on cheaper replacements. if they do back him with 3-4 players in that time by replacing carroll,cole,downing and maybe enrique with some better quality players then i see no reason why we can't be challenging for the top 3 places this time next year.
only by backing the man will we know if he's got what it takes or not and im pretty sure he would have never went a near this job if he thought he would be paying for past managers spending.
his only real failings in my book is how he handled the transfer window but im mostly impressed at what i see on the field. he has his moments but thats down to inexperience of being in the spotlight of such a big club but he seems to catch on quicker than most.

by **The Raven** » Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:44 am

Thommo's perm » Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:16 pm wrote:He's been dropped in the deep end of a swimming pool of sh'it.
Hicks and Gilet, Rafa going, Hogdson arriving, FSG arriving, Hodson going, KK arriving, KK going, Commoli going, millions spent, being attacked from all sides because of the Suarez witch hunt, Carroll going, no replacement striker, injuries and having to play kids.The list is endless.
The mans stepped up to the plate and is trying his best to turn us into a force before its too late. Thats right, before its too late, because unless he gets support from the fans and money from the owners we are well and truly fu'cked.
Then people will know what mid table mediocrity really is.
Sheeeeesh!

He wasnt dropped anywhere he knew what he was walking into when he took the job. Granted he walked into a pool of *****. Stepping up to the plate? Doing his job.

Just because i bitch and moan here does not mean i dont support the team. Im just worried about whats happening and when i look to our manager i want to hear something that makes me feel better. All i got was "my time here wont be enough to turn things around" The effort to dumb us down is in full swing. So that means 3 years with no CL?

For all his faults Kenny never backed down
Rafa walked into a like for like ***** pile and said hes here to win.

I want to see some fight, something other than excuses and the lowering of expectations.

by **Thommo's perm** » Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:58 am

What are your expectations based on? I too have had the "rose tinted glasses" syndrome, but Ive took mine off.
We havent won the league in over two decades and have only looked like seriously competing for it once, maybe twice in all this time. It took a miracle to win the CL, and we duly fu'cked it up in 2007 when it was easier to win the thing. We scraped through to win an FA cup in 2006 on penalties and did the same for the league cup last season. Im sorry to be the bearer of bad news but we aint the force we were in the late 80's and only hard work and full support from owners and fans will get us through and hopefully turn us into contenders again.
I an constantly being called deluded by bitter tw@ts, which I laugh off by calling them jealous. But secretly, deep down I wonder if I, and other Reds really are...?

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