Liverpool FC Forum

by **burjennio** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:39 am

stmichael wrote:The main players who made this pass and move football work last season were Lucas, Spearing, Maxi and Suarez.

I think a big part of that is the three South Americans working together so effectively in making us look like a side comfortable in spreading the ball around on the deck. Carroll, Downing, Henderson and even Adam to an extent are all very direct players, looking to get the ball forward quickly and early and perhaps its trying to transition to a more patient, intelligent style of play that is causing these guys to struggle. If thats the case then serious questions have to be asked of our transfer targets over the last 12 months and who was the ultimate final authority on bringing these guys in. Are these the players Dalglish wanted 100% to fit into his system? Did he sign them looking to change the style of play from last season? How much input does Damien Comolli actually have in transfer policy and does he wield more authority than the manager?

by **metalhead** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:17 am

LFC2007 wrote:
Kerry07 wrote:"been there and done it"... in a different era.

Today is the first time i think most of us have had reason to be critical of Kenny's tactics...a back 5 and Kuyt upfront as a lone frontman, that line up today was shocking. Its the kind of formation you put out in an away tie in Europe when you want to keep it tight, and a draw is a result.

Havent really seen a problem with the tactics in any of the previous games (bar starting Carroll in games in place of Maxi).

The major criticism is off-field matters, his british transfers. How he undoes the 70million error will decide how his tenure with us goes. With Suarez unavailable we need a stand in... and bar Bellamy (who cant play 2 games in short space) we dont have anyone. 70million spent and we have nothing. Then theres midfield creativity, without the man who has saved us time and time and time and time again over 10 years, we dont have anyone. Only when we get signings right will we see league success/top 4 qualification. Comolli has been a massive failure thus far, and Kenny needs to get his next batch of signings right (if hes allowed to spend) because if he doesnt thats the end of him.

It's fair enough to highlight that Kenny's greatest successes herald from a different era...an era in which the challenges facing managers were different from today, but the principle of the game is exactly the same, making it a question of adaptation. His experience in the game doesn't count for nothing even if it doesn't prove he can cut it as a manager in the modern game. People also overlook the fact that after an extended period out of the game, a period of adjustment was in order to allow him to get up to speed with those changes, having regard also for the fact that the club itself was in a period of great transition. It never was likely to be a smooth ride after two dire seasons with turmoil on and off the pitch, and the rise of Man City and Spurs.

Some of the signings Kenny made (signings being a crucial part of management) that haven't worked out so far, and the tactics to correspond, might be symptomatic of this need to adapt. But he deserves a fair and proper chance at building a team of his own which he hasn't yet had, not nearly.

great post, most sensible on here.

by **only me** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:19 pm

Penguins wrote:
only me wrote:Some proportions ,Rafa's last years were $hiit his Aqua signing was criminal and his teams were so tacticful it squeezed the life out of everyone ,he was your classic cup manager but not a team builder or PL contender.

Kenny deserves his chance for sure ,i agreed with every single signing he made for the team and he i'm sure is devastated more then anyone with their current performance ,his tactics on the other hand are a total failure and so far he failed in deploying the correct players in the right position with the right game plan. He needs to understand that not losing isn't the purpose of the game ,at least not for Liverpool ,he must take risks if he want to succeed.

Talk about losing the plot...

You call Rafa's signing of Aqua criminal but in the same breath raise Kenny's signing to the skies...
Aqua got more goals and assists in fewer games than Downing and Henderson combined!!!
Aqua was A failure still. But it was A failure. costing 17 million.
WTF isn't the 3 stooges then?? Mega failures?

And then you continue to on the tactics of Rafa when we weren't even close of scoring so few goals under him than we are now!!

And as the icing on the cake you call rafa a cup manager!
LOOOL!
We finished 2nd, 3rd, 4th under him and 7th at worst.
Kenny has managed to get us nowhere from last season when we finished 7th with backing only Rafa could dream of.
Bur he is on his way to get us to the league cup final....

Sure, Rafa lost it late on, but Kenny is doing everything Rafa did bad even at a worse rate!
There, I said it...

Your whole arguement rests on hindsight which is a rather cheap form of discussion.

Was Rafa decision to spend the bulk amount of his money on an Injured player Reasonable??? In my book never in a million years. He gambled LFC season away which for me is criminal and deserved immidiate sacking.

Was Kenny decision to sign Downing/Hendo/Adam/Carrol based their track record in the moment of signature ,Reasonable??? In my opinion Yes it was.

Can you spot the difference? Of course Kenny's signing are currently a hugh failure ,but at the time did he make a reasonable decision ,I think Yes. Rafa thought he is so brillient he could micro manage a team without bringing quality players and when he did he brought an injured one ,his Ego led him to think he is bigger then LFC and that was his ruin.

by **Thommo's perm** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:40 pm

stmichael wrote:
Thommo's perm wrote:I just wonder why, when KK took over 12 months ago, arent we playing the same type of football which dragged us up the table? What happened to that attitude and philosiphy?

The main players who made this pass and move football work last season were Lucas, Spearing, Maxi and Suarez. As it stands two of the aforementioned are injured, one is banned and the other doesn't seem to be getting a look in despite scoring nearly everytime he plays. We signed Henderson, Bellamy and Enrique who can all play this type of football and yet Gerrard is still not 100% fit and Bellamy can't play every week because of his knees.

If you look at our best displays this season in terms of movement off the ball I'd say Brighton away in the first half an hour when Spearing, Suarez, Maxi and Bellamy all played and we cut them to ribbons but couldn't finish. Chelsea away in the league (Suarez, Maxi and Bellamy all played). Is this purely coincidence? I don't think so. These guys are exceptionally intelligent footballers who whilst they may not be as quick as they used to be they are still a genuine goal threat which is what we are seriously lacking at the moment.

On the other hand Carroll, Downing and Adam don't fit this philosophy at all which raises questions about why they were brought if that was the case. Adam I can forgive because he's still had some excellent games but the other two just haven't done it.

I still wonder if we had a system in mind to play when we were signing these players or whether we decided to buy the players and then build a system around that.

I dont believe for one minute that KK didnt have, even while Hodgson was managing, his own ideas of what he would do if he became manager again. It was always in his mind, and according to him he wanted to come back soon after he left, but wasnt allowed to. He hasnt sat round idly since Rafa brought him back. As Rush said, he knows everything about football and footballers. So I cant accept that he would buy ANYONE without knowing what they were capable of, and more importantly, how they would fit into his own system.
When he returned as manager last january, he took over a squad in turmoil. He settled people down, brought calmness and confidence, but above all he brought unity that was missing. We went on a great run and except for a few fu'ck ups (e.g spurs) we could have finished in the top four. When the season ended KK had his choice and the money to buy the players he wanted to fit his system. Are they good players? I dont think anyone could argue that. Are they playing well? Debatable. Is KK's system working? It would seem not, but as he says, we are a "work in progress" Unfortunately we are all guilty of impatience (some more than others) and we want results now. We want qualification for the CL NOW! Maybe we should wind our necks in? But realistically we cant, because we are LFC and we demand success.
Whether the light comes on and KK's system work remains to be seen. But it aint half frustraiting waiting for it to happen

by **mart** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:46 pm

only me wrote:

Was Rafa decision to spend the bulk amount of his money on an Injured player Reasonable??? In my book never in a million years. He gambled LFC season away which for me is criminal and deserved immidiate sacking.

Kenny just paid twice that amount for a completely untested and injured player (Carroll), and he didnt have to deal with the two :censored:

. It seems you have double standards. Its not ok for Rafa to sign an injured player, but when kenny spends almost twice that amount on a player that will be out for a similar amount of time it its reasonable.

Was Kenny decision to sign Downing/Hendo/Adam/Carrol based their track record in the moment of signature ,Reasonable??? In my opinion Yes it was.

Can you spot the difference? Of course Kenny's signing are currently a hugh failure ,but at the time did he make a reasonable decision ,I think Yes. Rafa thought he is so brillient he could micro manage a team without bringing quality players and when he did he brought an injured one ,his Ego led him to think he is bigger then LFC and that was his ruin.

If Kenny didnt have the history he has with the club you would not have said that.

by **Penguins** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:24 pm

mart wrote:
only me wrote:

Was Rafa decision to spend the bulk amount of his money on an Injured player Reasonable??? In my book never in a million years. He gambled LFC season away which for me is criminal and deserved immidiate sacking.

Kenny just paid twice that amount for a completely untested and injured player (Carroll), and he didnt have to deal with the two . It seems you have double standards. Its not ok for Rafa to sign an injured player, but when kenny spends almost twice that amount on a player that will be out for a similar amount of time it its reasonable.

Was Kenny decision to sign Downing/Hendo/Adam/Carrol based their track record in the moment of signature ,Reasonable??? In my opinion Yes it was.

Can you spot the difference? Of course Kenny's signing are currently a hugh failure ,but at the time did he make a reasonable decision ,I think Yes. Rafa thought he is so brillient he could micro manage a team without bringing quality players and when he did he brought an injured one ,his Ego led him to think he is bigger then LFC and that was his ruin.

If Kenny didnt have the history he has with the club you would not have said that.

No use, he is blinded by the legendary status....

by **teamleader1** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:43 pm

Have to say that on hearing the line up on the way to the game we were all scratching our heads

Just couldn't understand it, Why tamper that much when we are so desperate for pts?
Not many on here couldn't have picked a more balanced side.
Looked more like change for the sake of it, a complete fk up that can only be put down to Kenny
We are slowly limping out of contention for a top 4 place.
We need to get a grip before its to late.

by **dawson99** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:45 pm

teamleader1 wrote:Have to say that on hearing the line up on the way to the game we were all scratching our heads
Just couldn't understand it, Why tamper that much when we are so desperate for pts?
Not many on here couldn't have picked a more balanced side than Kenny did yesterday
Looked more like change for the sake of it, a complete fk up that can only be put down to Kenny
We are slowly limping out of contention for a top 4 place.
Get a grip Kenny before its to late.

That's thwe weird thing. Every one of us knew it was a bad line up, so is there more going on than we know?

by **neil** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:54 pm

I have a feelin that Carol will be loaned out this window with Bent coming in.

by **7_Kewell** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:58 pm

stmichael wrote:
7_Kewell wrote:dear oh dear, what an awful performance and bad set up. 5 men in defence against a team who play 10 men behind the ball at all times....why?

I'm sorry guys, but for me Kenny isn't the man to lead us forward. He's transformed us into Newcastle of 1998....poor ideas, average players and no ambition.

Kenny's out of touch with the modern game and lacks the dynanism that modern football has developed. Today's managers think nothing of changing their approach, formation 2 or 3 times per half to outwit the opposition. Kenny's the complete opposite and Stoke must have p!ssed themselves laughing when they saw our team sheet.

But it's not just the set up and tactics...it's Kenny's signings too, which are the WORST in the history of our great club. Downing, Adam, Carroll, Henderson...they're all garbage and they cost us the best part of 100 million. It's a f**king joke.

I'll get panned for saying this, but i hope the board are now searching for someone new, young and capable to take over in the summer and move Kenny back upstairs. Otherwise, he'll get sacked and will be forced to leave Liverpool under a cloud, never to return.

You did your best Kenny, but a top 4 Premier League manager you are not...

Welcome to the modern day football fan. Were you saying the same before the game?

Kenny got it wrong today but to call for his head is just ludicrous. It doesn't surprise me though. The bloke was getting abuse from his own fans after winning away at City in the week and keeping a clean sheet in the process.

Sigh.

I've had serious concerns for the last 2 months, but have always thought it was too early to judge. However, I'm not seeing progress...kenny's dealings in the transfer market have been a f**king disaster and we've gone backwards as a result.

As for the City game...playing 10 men behind the ball for 45 mins to cling on to a 1-0 win is NOT the Liverpool way to play football...and it smacked of desperation as we played like a championship side in the 2nd half hoping to scrape through. Sure, it was a win, but we won because Man City were unable to hit the goal, and not because of Kenny's tactical wonderment.

As far as i can see we're at least 5 players short and the thought of giving Kenny another 100 million leaves me with dread...

by **parchpea** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:21 pm

I would like to know what part Comolli is actually playing in our revival when to this point we have pretty much recruited from within the Premier league.

I was under the impression he was brought in to find these young lads from world football, some real bargains for us, but hes done nothing of the sort.

You see players like the boys Newcastle got in from French football which is supposed to be Comollis hunting ground but we missed them.

If hes going to present us with Downings and Hendersons then take him off the payroll because anyone can pick up those lads if you want to chuck big money at it.

by **only me** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:24 pm

mart wrote:
only me wrote:

Was Rafa decision to spend the bulk amount of his money on an Injured player Reasonable??? In my book never in a million years. He gambled LFC season away which for me is criminal and deserved immidiate sacking.

Kenny just paid twice that amount for a completely untested and injured player (Carroll), and he didnt have to deal with the two . It seems you have double standards. Its not ok for Rafa to sign an injured player, but when kenny spends almost twice that amount on a player that will be out for a similar amount of time it its reasonable.

Was Kenny decision to sign Downing/Hendo/Adam/Carrol based their track record in the moment of signature ,Reasonable??? In my opinion Yes it was.

Can you spot the difference? Of course Kenny's signing are currently a hugh failure ,but at the time did he make a reasonable decision ,I think Yes. Rafa thought he is so brillient he could micro manage a team without bringing quality players and when he did he brought an injured one ,his Ego led him to think he is bigger then LFC and that was his ruin.

If Kenny didnt have the history he has with the club you would not have said that.

Sorry mate it is a totally different Scenario. Let me try and explain.

Kenny bought Carrol not with last season in mind but for THIS season ,he bought him after Torres pressured the club with his last minute getaway and he bought him in the middle of the season as he just received a broken team from Roy.

Rafa bought an injured player ,as a calculated risk and gamble BEFORE the season started ,he KNOW Aqua couldn't play for month and he know he had no one to hold the midfield (Except Lucas which was pretty owfull). Rafa built our whole season on the toss of a dice that we would be able to hold the fort till a healthy succesfull Aqua returns.

Kenny didn't know Carrol would stink the place ,he didn't know Adam nor Hendo nor Downing would be too shell shocked to perform as they did in the past ,and that is why i thought Rafa action were unreasonable and criminal while Kenny's were reasonable even if not succesfull.

I Still think Kenny fails in other aspects of a football manager ,in tactics ,in game managment ,in overall approach ,but this discussion is more over player picking and signing.

by **Reg** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:28 pm

One thing's for sure, folks on this forum are starting to lose patience.

by **dawson99** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:30 pm

only me wrote:
mart wrote:
only me wrote:

Was Rafa decision to spend the bulk amount of his money on an Injured player Reasonable??? In my book never in a million years. He gambled LFC season away which for me is criminal and deserved immidiate sacking.

Kenny just paid twice that amount for a completely untested and injured player (Carroll), and he didnt have to deal with the two . It seems you have double standards. Its not ok for Rafa to sign an injured player, but when kenny spends almost twice that amount on a player that will be out for a similar amount of time it its reasonable.

Was Kenny decision to sign Downing/Hendo/Adam/Carrol based their track record in the moment of signature ,Reasonable??? In my opinion Yes it was.

Can you spot the difference? Of course Kenny's signing are currently a hugh failure ,but at the time did he make a reasonable decision ,I think Yes. Rafa thought he is so brillient he could micro manage a team without bringing quality players and when he did he brought an injured one ,his Ego led him to think he is bigger then LFC and that was his ruin.

If Kenny didnt have the history he has with the club you would not have said that.

Sorry mate it is a totally different Scenario. Let me try and explain.

Kenny bought Carrol not with last season in mind but for THIS season ,he bought him after Torres pressured the club with his last minute getaway and he bought him in the middle of the season as he just received a broken team from Roy.

Rafa bought an injured player ,as a calculated risk and gamble BEFORE the season started ,he KNOW Aqua couldn't play for month and he know he had no one to hold the midfield (Except Lucas which was pretty owfull). Rafa built our whole season on the toss of a dice that we would be able to hold the fort till a healthy succesfull Aqua returns.

Kenny didn't know Carrol would stink the place ,he didn't know Adam nor Hendo nor Downing would be too shell shocked to perform as they did in the past ,and that is why i thought Rafa action were unreasonable and criminal while Kenny's were reasonable even if not succesfull.

I Still think Kenny fails in other aspects of a football manager ,in tactics ,in game managment ,in overall approach ,but this discussion is more over player picking and signing.

But Kenny did know that Carroll is masively suited to al ong ball game, a style of football that Liverpool tries not to play.

I'm not having a go at Kenny, the guy is God, but if any other manager had spent the money he had on the players he has and we were playing the way that we are, hed be gone.

It ALMOST looks like Kenny has told the team to play sh!t until Suarez comes bac

by **mart** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:35 pm

only me wrote:Kenny bought Carrol not with last season in mind but for THIS season ,he bought him after Torres pressured the club with his last minute getaway and he bought him in the middle of the season as he just received a broken team from Roy.

Haha so we really needed a striker that we knew would be out for most of the season because we lost torres? The season was already lost and yes we would have been fine without carrol for the 7 games he managed to play at the end of last season.

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