Liverpool FC Forum

by **Benny The Noon** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:44 pm

Ciggy wrote:
s@int wrote:
Benny The Noon wrote:Liverpool (from): Cavalieri, Johnson, Carragher, Skrtel, Insua, Aquilani, Lucas, Mascherano, Gerrard, Riera, Ngog, Riera, Benayoun, Aurelio, Darby, Spearing, Kelly, Pacheco, Agger.

Two Riera's and no Reina ?

And no Torres

Yeah strange as the report says he will be on the bench but he isnt in their teamlist

by **NANNY RED** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:57 pm

Im

fuming with our club fuming . they havnt got a clue. Mosiac feck off , i wont be holding no cards, Listen to the fans for once you stupid suited idiots , This Mosiac lark tomorrow , could turn into a disater for us in the futue , it need fecking off right away,

by **dawson99** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:58 pm

NANNY RED wrote:Im fuming with our club fuming . they havnt got a clue. Mosiac feck off , i wont be holding no cards, Listen to the fans for once you stupid suited idiots , This Mosiac lark tomorrow , could turn into a disater for us in the futue , it need fecking off right away,

the what in the where now?

by **Benny The Noon** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:00 pm

Its shocking Nanny - they are pretending we are linked becuase of Hillsboro yet every man and his dog knows its all because of Hysel - the banners and t shirts and scarves they had afterwards statiing 39 less Juve fans says it all really .

by **Ciggy** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:00 pm

NANNY RED wrote:Im fuming with our club fuming . they havnt got a clue. Mosiac feck off , i wont be holding no cards, Listen to the fans for once you stupid suited idiots , This Mosiac lark tomorrow , could turn into a disater for us in the futue , it need fecking off right away,

Imagine we draw Juve in the Europa league talk about pouring petrol on the flames, there will be feckin murder. :no

by **Benny The Noon** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:03 pm

Daws Fiorentina have been going on about some twin with us out of mutual respect but everyone knows and feels they want it becuase of heysel and there has even been Fiorentina fans on forums and websites thanking Liverpool fans for killing 39 juve fans . It was also known that when Everton played Fiorentina they even thanked them because they are from Liverpool .

by **Ciggy** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:04 pm

PUBLIC LETTER TO LIVERPOOL FANS

Hello, I'm writing to you on behalf of thousands of Juve fans; this is the first time we contact you after 24 years. Distance between us remains massive since we never talked after the Heysel tragedy despite more than 24 years have now gone by. Maybe without this perverse "twinning" we'd have not contacted you but in life nothing is still therefore we take the opportunity to let you know our opinion on this "twinning" and how the viola fans had used it against us during the match we played against fiorentina three weeks ago, and, above all, how they will always use it in the future. Of course you are free to befriend whoever you want, and we are definitely not asking you to give up this friendship, but we want you to be aware that since the first day that we aknowledged the intention of the viola ultras (because the idea came from them, not from shirters) to set up this "twinning" with you guys, it has been clear to us that the main reason, I'm not saying the only one - even if it's very likely, was the Heysel night. Since that awful night in 1985 every match we played against fiorentina was the time for chants and banners cheering that night. We are used to it and I personally don't even care, they do that as some of us do the same with the death of their former President or with the Arno flooding and the Superga tragedy. This is the way ultras behave and I'm not in the position to change some of my people's morality. However no juventus fan could ever deny the from our terraces these songs are sung, even if by a minority.

Viola ultras are clearly lying to you, all fiorentina ultras sing those songs. It's not a minority, as some of you said before, it is a majority, the same that arrived three weeks ago in Torino wearing liverpool jerseys with MENO (MINUS) 39 on the back and singing the usual array of songs cheering the deaths of 39 innocent people. Those shirts were made and those songs were sung by the same ultras that now are saying that the reasons for this "twinning" are pure and sincere. It’s a :censored:

blatant lie. Now that the real reasons for this "twinning" are coming out of the shell here in Italy they are trying to deny what it's been so clear to all ultras in Italy, not only to us. For once, only once, the viola should be brave and admit what was really behind it.

As I mentioned earlier it's obvious that there still is a huge distance between us mainly because your hools, the real responsible for what happened, never looked for forgiveness, if not few of them in private and only 20 years later (forgiveness that was by the way refused by Otello Lorentini - president of the association of the victims of Heysel - just before our encounter in 2005). Not only, the majority of them still say that they were attacked by Juve fans and that they only defended themselves. With these people there could not be any dialogue, only hate, forever and ever.

At the same time it is also very true that younger Liverpool fans have always seen the Heysel tragedy as a huge soft spot, something to be really ashamed for and even feeling guilty for something they have not commited. And it's also very true that during recent years it was them who actually did more than anybody else to remember the victims and show them the due respect.

Back in 2005 when you offered us friendship, many of us didn't accept it also because we felt it was one of those UEFA plans to make football look good... We just didn't believe it was genuine.

For the above mentioned issues, of course there's still a lot of rage from our side and it's not even easy just to write to you, not to mention full forgiveness, at least without important gestures from your side. At least not before looking at each other's eyes after so many years. At least not after full awareness of the true story of what happened that night. It will be very difficult for you and us to come close until there are still people on your side that are happy for what happened.

However this is the real chance to start this process. Should you make a historic gesture towards our victims I'm sure this would not go unnoticed by the majority of our supporters. After a tragedy like the one we suffered of course this process will take a long time but something has to be done sooner or later and this gesture may well be a beginning.

It's obvious that viola fans are now coming out with silly excuses for those above mentioned jerseys, for the liverpool scarves shown and the songs "we love liverpool" sung at our faces during our last encounter. We know that a doubt has already appeared in some of you about the real nature of this "twinning". We advise you to test the viola fans before your match against them at Anfield. Ask them to join you in a display of respect towards the victims of Heysel, maybe with a banner held together by you and the viola ultras (the CAV, collettivo autonomo viola), not the shirters, they would have no problem in joining you, but the ultras, the real masterminds behind this "twinning" with you guys. Ask them to show respect and take distances from that horrible jersey they were wearing during our last encounter with them. Ask them to give you a strong signal that this "twinning" is sincere and not based on the Heysel tragedy.

We are not loved by anyone in Italy, as it happens everywhere with winning clubs, however all italian ultras agree on the real reasons behind this friendship and condemned the hypocrisy shown by Italian media portraing it as a finally mature behaviour by some Italian ultras despite being well aware of the real reasons behind it. And they despise the viola ultras for denying the truth. Ultras may be bad in a lot of ways but they don't lie. They are honest and brave. They don't like cowards lying in order to let a wrong message come through. And this is clearly the case.

In conclusion, we don't ask you to do anything, but if you really care to come closer to us test the viola ultras. If we are right they will never accept and you know that they only wanted to use you. If we are wrong at least you'll be sure about the reasons of this "twinning". We'll be watching and we'll draw our conclusions. But if you really want to come closer to us starting a pattern of dialogue this is THE chance. Ther won't be others so clear and easy to approach.

www.orgogliogobbo.it

www.j1897network.com

by **Benny The Noon** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:08 pm

That is a very good letter and should be spread around everywhere and to help people understand .

by **NANNY RED** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:11 pm

I want nothing to do with it its a disgrace , an anyone who sees the cards should rip them up , if theres any around me they will all be collected an ripped up , simple ,,an everyone else should do the same, thatll feck there friendly mosiac up. im so angry with the club its unbelievable, they seriously need to listen to the voice of the fans on this one, As Ciggy said what happens if in the next few months we draw Juventus , or any other Italian team for that matter, Bad bad pr by the club here , an it needs looking into ,

by **Benny The Noon** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:12 pm

Its a lack of knowing the history and common sense from the club .

by **Ciggy** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:14 pm

A thorny friendship.

http://theitalianview.tumblr.com/post/250030004/a-thorny-friendship

After the final whistle had blown at the end of Fiorentina’s 2-0 home win against Liverpool in the Champions League, Fiorentina ‘ultras’ marched across the pitch towards the away fans proudly displaying a massive banner with the words, “Welcome Reds your story is for us a legend”.

The two sets of fans had agreed to what in Italy is called a ‘gemellaggio’, a twinning.

Whilst this gesture was not widely reported in England, it was warmly greeted. Dave Murphy of the LFC Official Supporters Club, Merseyside Branch, commented on the Liverpool website, “It promises to be a great occasion, so if you are traveling to the game be sure to come along and meet some of our new friends.”

Despite the twinning happening this year Fiorentina fans have been wearing Liverpool scarves and singing ‘Amo Liverpool’ [I love Liverpool] for over twenty years. The reason this for this is upsettingly clear: Heysel.

After the tragic events of the Heysel stadium disaster, 29 May 1985, thirty-nine people who went to watch the European Cup Final played between Juventus and Liverpool in Belgium never returned home. They were crushed when part of the stadium collapsed. This was caused by bianconeri supporters fleeing from a charging group of Liverpool fans. Thirty-two of the victims were Juventus fans, the other seven were neutrals, Belgian, French and a Northern Irishman.

In the aftermath of the event other supporters in Italy showed almost unanimous solidarity with Juventus. Banners in many stadiums were displayed in remembrance of the dead.

The scene was very different at Fiorentina’s Artemio Franchi stadium the Sunday after the Heysel disaster. Still smarting from losing the title on the last day of the 81/82 season to Juve the Fiorentina fans unveiled an altogether more tasteless banner:

“Heysel: 39 gobbi in meno” [Heysel: 39 less Juve fans]

In the years that have passed Fiorentina’s hatred of Juventus has grown and the invoking of Heysel and praise of Liverpool has not gone away.

As can be imagined Juventus fans were outraged by this twinning. It was seen as an officialized smear on the memory of their ‘39 angels’.

In the run-up to the match that would see Juventus hosting Fiorentina for the first time since the ‘gemellaggio’, Stefano Sartoni, the head of the ‘ultras’ group Collettivo Autonomo Viola that had initiated the twinning, attempted to defuse the situation, stating:

“We know that the Juvetus fans haven’t taken it very well, that’s their problem. We’ve already explained the reason: we’ve always admired the Reds and Heysel is irrelevant.”

Most Juventus fans were unconvinced by these words and during their meeting on the 17th of October they unveiled banners that read: “Honour to the Heysel fallen, we ask for respect” and “A twinning of squalor for fans without honour”.

Despite the words of Sartoni as to the reason for the twinning, their fans arrived in Turin loaded with Liverpool scarves and a banner stating, “Amo Liverpool”. But more disturbingly fans were seen, and photographed, with Liverpool shirts featuring the name and number of an inexistent player: Meno [Less] 39.

Though an innocence can be claimed in the ambiguity of Reds scarves and ‘loving Liverpool’, a shirt with ‘Meno 39’ leaves nothing to the imagination and no room for debate. It’s as clearly a reference to the Heysel dead as it is tasteless.

The official Juventus response was striking; utter silence. The hierarchy is still weak following the events of ‘calciopoli’, but it is still shocking that they made no comment, did not denounce the Fiorentina fans, report them to the Federation or release any visuals of the culprits.

In contrast, a week after the Juventus - Fiorentina match a comparable incident took place on British shores. A Millwall fan wore a Galatasaray shirt to their away match against Leeds, taunting the home fans over the deaths of Christopher Loftus and Kevin Speight. The two fans that were tragically killed before the clubs away Champions League clash against the Turkish giant.

The actions of the Millwall fan lead to national outrage. Photos of the incident were splashed across newspapers and the Millwall chairman denounced the fan’s behaviour. The supporter is now facing the prospect of a lifetime ban.

Conversely, in Italy there was no mention of the incident in any newspaper. This non-action has given rise to an astonishing campaign by Juventus fans; a mix of fan power and modern technology.

Juventus fans across the Internet, on forums and social networking groups, have begun fighting against this twinning. They have been sharing evidence of misdeeds by Fiorentina fans, but, more intriguingly, they have begun talking to Liverpool fans on their forums.

Since the events of Heysel there has been no love for Liverpool from the Juventus faithful. It is a part of their history they have never forgotten, partly for what they perceive as a lack of effort or care on Liverpool’s part to apologise for what happened.

When the two teams met in 2005, the first time since the tragedy and by coincidence the 20th anniversary of the disaster, the Kop unveiled a huge sign reading, ‘Amicizia’ [friendship]. A large part of the travelling support turned their backs, for them this apology, after 20 years, was far too late.

This twinning however has paradoxically opened communications betweens the two sets of fans. With an open letter by Juventus fans being published all over the Anfield club’s fan forums and other followers of the bianconeri joining online debates.

In this message the Juve supporters give their view on the reason behind the twinning and many Liverpool fans, still wary of their reputation as a result of the Heysel incident, are taking note; not wishing to get involved in something that could potentially be a massive PR catastrophe.

The Liverpool fans have been urged to test Fiorentina’s motives. Juventus fans have suggested that both clubs at the return match at Anfield make some kind of joint gesture in memory of Heysel. The Viola fans, who have also been making their voices heard of the same forums, have, for the moment, not taken kindly to the idea.

Whether this campaign by Juventus fans is successful or not and a gesture is made in remembrance will be revealed when Liverpool host Fiorentina. What is certain, however, is that this ‘gemellaggio’ is not a problem that is going to be laid to rest any time soon, and that both Liverpool and Juventus will continue to be haunted by the ghosts of that tragic day in May 1985.

by **Benny The Noon** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:19 pm

Latest Squad - Pacheco has been pulled out due to a virus .

Liverpool: Diego Cavalieri, Pepe Reina, David Martin, Glen Johnson, Daniel Agger, Fabio Aurelio, Sotirios Kyrgiakos, Emiliano Insua, Jamie Carragher, Stephen Darby, Martin Kelly, Martin Skrtel, Andrea Dossena, Alberto Aquilani, Steven Gerrard, Yossi Benayoun, Javier Mascherano, Lucas Leiva, Jay Spearing, Damien Plessis, Albert Riera, Fernando Torres, Andriy Voronin, Dirk Kuyt, Ryan Babel, David Ngog, David Amoo, Nathan Eccleston.

by **Ciggy** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:24 pm

Benny The Noon wrote:Its a lack of knowing the history and common sense from the club .

Its not, its to defuse the planned protests the club know quite feckin well why they like us, and its to goad Juve fans over heysel.

Its on par with us playing Bayern and giving them a banner with Your Run Way Is Great on it.

Ive just said to Nanny in pm I am really starting to hate LFC and I never thought Id say that.

by **dawson99** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:40 pm

Ciggy wrote:
Benny The Noon wrote:Its a lack of knowing the history and common sense from the club .

Its not, its to defuse the planned protests the club know quite feckin well why they like us, and its to goad Juve fans over heysel.

Its on par with us playing Bayern and giving them a banner with Your Run Way Is Great on it.

Ive just said to Nanny in pm I am really starting to hate LFC and I never thought Id say that.

you'll never hate LFC hun, just some of the politics that go with it at a certain time...

ps - is that you in the xmas hat?

by **NANNY RED** » Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:57 pm

dawson99 wrote:
Ciggy wrote:
Benny The Noon wrote:Its a lack of knowing the history and common sense from the club .

Its not, its to defuse the planned protests the club know quite feckin well why they like us, and its to goad Juve fans over heysel.

Its on par with us playing Bayern and giving them a banner with Your Run Way Is Great on it.

Ive just said to Nanny in pm I am really starting to hate LFC and I never thought Id say that.

you'll never hate LFC hun, just some of the politics that go with it at a certain time...

ps - is that you in the xmas hat?

Ill tell you what Daws if this mosiac goes ahead an loads of people hold them cards up , there are gonna be serious consequenses for the Traveling Liverpool fans in Europe , we can see it why cant the club, Its a disgrace an i want no part of it, Our club is becoming horrible, it doesnt belong to us anymore , It dosnt care about what we think an its wrong so wrong, an if it carries on like this i wont be giving them my money for much longer , its my money thats paying for this mosiac, Im absolutly :censored:

disgusted with the club,

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