Liverpool FC Forum

[redbeergoggles]

I'm not sure he "aims" at the keeper mate, nobody could be that accurate. This is particularly the case when it's coming off your knee, your shin, your erse etc as it generally is with Dirk.

No, I don't think he's credible as a striker although he does do a decent job on the right side of midfield, buzzing around and doing his thing. In some respects I kind of feel sorry for him in advance because it is highly unlikely that he will have the same goalscoring season again in his Liverpool career that he's just had. When the goals dry back up and people begin to look at his other contributions, many of those who pour scorn on anyone who thinks he is isn't Pele reincarnated will be the first on his back.

I really like Dirk, always have and was one of the few on here who stuck up for him when he was in the middle of his previous spells of true awfulness. Was it Blackburn Away when he homed in on goal from the right touchline in the dying seconds, the goal gaping and the baying Away fans urging him to pass it into the net? Course he didn't, he got caught in about six minds and made a nonsense of it. I remember to this day the look of despair on his face as he sat on his erse and looked to the heavens, my heart went out to the poor fella. But he battled back, he ran around a lot and made himself into a decent right midfielder.

It would be cruel IMHo to put him back through the mangler one more time, just one more time to prove what we already know if we really look. Sometimes there is a defining moment which proves something beyond all doubt, perhaps that was Dirks. Heskeys was in the dying moments of a Home match with Man Utd, the goal yawning in front of him and glory awaiting him. He fell on his erse though as he had a tendency so to do and squirted it wide. His Liverpool career at that moment was as good as over, on such moments are players made and destroyed.

Leave Dirk where he is. Now Johnsons there with him, we'll have a good right hand side.

Mick you sound like your talking about the village idiot ,Kuyt's competent enough and he certainly isn't dumb ,I expect him to be as equally prolific this season , I like many others consider Torres to be the best striker around in world football ,but he too  made some glaring errors in front of goal last season ,but you never get people slating him .

As for your analogy of Heskeys moment of truth ,didnt the same thing occur with Cisse against the Mancs only Cisse never got of his @rse
Kuyt will always be the first back on his feet ,and that is the one defining difference in that Liverpool team, and our current team ,we now possess players that will battle for every ball ,well albeit Babel.

We will always differ in our opinion of Kuyt ,you stated you dont consider him credible as a striker ,Mick that much was apparent in your first paragraph, why people mock a player who contributed a vast amount of energy and passion ,with a fair amount of crucial goals, is and will continue to be perpetually beyond me ....

Surely Kuyts goals last season where equally as crucial as Torres ,in a time when the game was running away from us .
Im pretty sure you celebrated them goals with the same euphoria as me ,if so then surely Dirk should be treated with the respect afforded to other Reds...

[Ben Patrick]

I'm not sure he "aims" at the keeper mate, nobody could be that accurate. This is particularly the case when it's coming off your knee, your shin, your erse etc as it generally is with Dirk.

No, I don't think he's credible as a striker although he does do a decent job on the right side of midfield, buzzing around and doing his thing. In some respects I kind of feel sorry for him in advance because it is highly unlikely that he will have the same goalscoring season again in his Liverpool career that he's just had. When the goals dry back up and people begin to look at his other contributions, many of those who pour scorn on anyone who thinks he is isn't Pele reincarnated will be the first on his back.

I really like Dirk, always have and was one of the few on here who stuck up for him when he was in the middle of his previous spells of true awfulness. Was it Blackburn Away when he homed in on goal from the right touchline in the dying seconds, the goal gaping and the baying Away fans urging him to pass it into the net? Course he didn't, he got caught in about six minds and made a nonsense of it. I remember to this day the look of despair on his face as he sat on his erse and looked to the heavens, my heart went out to the poor fella. But he battled back, he ran around a lot and made himself into a decent right midfielder.

It would be cruel IMHo to put him back through the mangler one more time, just one more time to prove what we already know if we really look. Sometimes there is a defining moment which proves something beyond all doubt, perhaps that was Dirks. Heskeys was in the dying moments of a Home match with Man Utd, the goal yawning in front of him and glory awaiting him. He fell on his erse though as he had a tendency so to do and squirted it wide. His Liverpool career at that moment was as good as over, on such moments are players made and destroyed.

Leave Dirk where he is. Now Johnsons there with him, we'll have a good right hand side.

mick its a good post and i agree with alomost all of it,

If dirk doesnt aim at the keeper, then whatever he aims at is being more than left comfortable !

[bigmick]

I do "respect" him Red, I respect him 100%. I was merely making my point in a light hearted way, in the same fashion as you were earlier when you asked the anti Kuyt mob to form a queue . It's all just bar-room banter at the end of the day, but as a footballer and as a man I respect him very much, he's a decent player on the right side of midfield.

As so often happens on the boards though, as we go over the same things and the same issues over and over again, the debate becomes less and less about the football side of things (is Kuyt any good, does Rafa rotate too much, is Alonso the most important player at the club, is Martin Skyrtel our player of the year etc etc) and more about the oneupmanship contained within the debate. We are all guilty of it, and it's an in inevitable consequence of a forum situation I think.

Kazza said a few weeks back that he hoped against hope that we won the title next season leading all the way, not just for the obvious reasons of being a fan but also because he'd like to stick my "golden opportunity" theory up my erse. I kind of understood that, just like having taken untold abuse and bullsh!t off of people on here for four years over rotation/the delayed gazelle etc etc I was willing us on even more than normal when we changed our outlook. I certainly didn't want us to lose while we were rotating, but being totally honest I enjoyed the wins even more once we put the silly theories well and truly to bed by winning lots of matches with a settled team. It's the nature of the forum. Equally, during the debate on Alonso and the "unseen work/his form really hasn't dipped honestly" the debate quickly became less about the player, and more about the people involved in it. This is magnified of course if one of the debatees takes a particularly aggressive stance. We do have one or two posters on the boards who if you disagree with them become apopleptic and throw insults around like confetti. Life being life of course this is inevitably followed by them being 100% wrong each time they do it, but once again the debate becomes more about the debatee and less about the question.

So no, I like Kuyt and I respect him. Not you, but some people got ridiculously over zealous in their protection of him a few months back (in fairness to them I think they probably realise it now) whereby if you so much as mentioned his name in passing, there were four pages of rat a tat tats in reply. Perhaps because of that, the criticism of him becomes more focused than perhaps the player deserves as well.

Whatever though, I think it's unrealistic to expect him to score as freely next season as he did this, but I'll still think he's a decent player on the right. He's not a striker though IMHO, and it would be more than possible to get a right midfielder who is better IMHO. I do like him however both as a player and man, and I do respect him.

[redbeergoggles]

To be honest Mick you are by far not the worst offender ,but the Kuyt baiting has now come to a point where its just a crescendo of annoying noise ,I think to the more patently unobservant amongst us Kuyt will always be a source of mirth and cruel jibes ,that much is obvious and it will never change .

Maybe there are better wingers out there Mick ,but one with more heart I beg to differ ,take Riera for example fine player fleet of foot ,but  he hardly wears his heart on his sleeve ,then there is Babel quite simply a huge dissapointment regardless of the platitudes he received on his signing  .

I think you could fill Liverpool to the brim with limitless talent ,but they would still come up short if the hearts missing .
players like Kuyt provide the effervescent spark of pure energy  ,and if I have to defend his traits and attributes I will do so with conviction

[bigmick]

Mate I'm with you all the way on his heart, and he does contribute much more than Riera despite the Spaniard being much the more talented player. Equally, every teams needs it Kuyts, Jimmy Case's, Craig Johnsons etc etc, but Dirk ain't no front player for me. Plus, when he goes up front we miss him on the right.

[account deleted by request]

I fail to see why we would consider moving Dirk back up front where he has constantly struggled when he has proved such an asset playing right mid.

The best thing Dirk offers when played up front is that he creates space for his partner, so to consider him as a REPLACEMENT for Torres would IMO be a mistake.

This is not about his character or his hard work, this is about playing someone where we can get the best out of them. Sadly as a striker Dirk has always looked as if he would struggle to find goals since he came, while playing him wide and allowing him to drift in allows him to use not only his incredible work rate , but to be an actual goal threat, while still creating time and space for the forwards to exploit.

[Igor Zidane]

Back on topic , Vorinin is still , far to static and no threat whatsoever . I was more impressed with egg nogg and young pancake in the second half .

[redbeergoggles]

Mate I'm with you all the way on his heart, and he does contribute much more than Riera despite the Spaniard being much the more talented player. Equally, every teams needs it Kuyts, Jimmy Case's, Craig Johnsons etc etc, but Dirk ain't no front player for me. Plus, when he goes up front we miss him on the right.

Mick I was just going to mention Jimmy Case as another case scenario

[redbeergoggles]

Im not advocating moving him up front Saint, I am simply saying he has earned the right to be an option ahead of Ngog and co .

[redbeergoggles]

Whilst engaging in this light-hearted banter ,I have totally missed my 500th post and I had such a party planned

[account deleted by request]

Im not advocating moving him up front Saint, I am simply saying he has earned the right to be an option ahead of Ngog and co .

I would certainly consider him as a replacement for Gerrard as support striker (in the event that Gerrard is injured/needs a rest etc etc) but as an out and out striker I think we are in trouble if Torres is out.

Kuyt can do a job, but over say a 5 or 6 game stretch I think we would pay the price in terms of points dropped.

[redbeergoggles]

I hope Rafa has a striker in mind Saint ,because in general I tend to agree with the last part of your summary ,but that said the main reason I posted was the lack of respect Kuyt genuinely   has afforded to him ,to the point of every thread or post in the main has been  tinged with sarcasm when describing Kuyts contribution to the game ,surely a player who exemplifies the passion Liverpool are synonymous with ,can be merited for the season we just had ,or am I wrong ....

[account deleted by request]

I think overall I have been a supporter of Kuyt during his time with us, but its also true that when he was struggling up front I advocated selling him and I would honestly have taken a figure of around £7million for him at the time. Similarly with Alonso, I would happily have exchanged him for a top striker a season or so back. 

I think its a strange phenomenom on here that some people can't seem to admit when a player is struggling for form, while others can't seem to admit that they may have been a little hasty in their judgement when a player starts to regain their form. That doesn't mean that the player should be shown disrespect or called names, but I do understand how, as Mick says the "battle lines get drawn". The stronger that people defend them, the more others criticise until both sides seem to lose sight of reality and the player becomes just a pawn in the middle of a battle.

For me Kuyt has never shown less than 100% comittment to Liverpool, and that alone makes him deserving of respect. Yes there are better players out there, but he is certainly deserving of his first team place until we sign one, and I think whoever we signed would still have a battle on their hands to be chosen infront of him.

I don't think there is any need to disrepect our players, but I don't think giving an honest opinion of their form or ability is in itself disrespectful. I think thats part and parcel of football.

If I say that I think Kuyt lacks pace or goal threat when played as a striker ..... thats my opinion. If I say that Kuyt is a clown/w@nker/t0sser etc etc  who shouldn't be allowed on a football pitch ..... thats disrespectful. 

I think it's important that we should be allowed to express honest opinions about the players,the manager and the team, but I don't think that means that we can say just anything.

[Sabre]

Well I don't understand the insults towards any Liverpool and Voronin is no exception.

It dissapoints me though to see him last game in St Gallen. Preseason is not a part of the season to jump into many conclussions but I think that if I was Voronin I would be running like a mad bull from minute one to show Rafa I deserve a place in the team. Voronin, showed his more than decent technique yesterday, but he need another intensity if he wants to triumph here. He has some quality, he just must be ársed to change his mindset to this league.

I don't consider him what I want in Liverpool first team, but right now he's a more solid option than N'gog so we'll have to support him.

[GYBS]

I think overall I have been a supporter of Kuyt during his time with us, but its also true that when he was struggling up front I advocated selling him and I would honestly have taken a figure of around £7million for him at the time. Similarly with Alonso, I would happily have exchanged him for a top striker a season or so back. 

I think its a strange phenomenom on here that some people can't seem to admit when a player is struggling for form, while others can't seem to admit that they may have been a little hasty in their judgement when a player starts to regain their form. That doesn't mean that the player should be shown disrespect or called names, but I do understand how, as Mick says the "battle lines get drawn". The stronger that people defend them, the more others criticise until both sides seem to lose sight of reality and the player becomes just a pawn in the middle of a battle.

For me Kuyt has never shown less than 100% comittment to Liverpool, and that alone makes him deserving of respect. Yes there are better players out there, but he is certainly deserving of his first team place until we sign one, and I think whoever we signed would still have a battle on their hands to be chosen infront of him.

I don't think there is any need to disrepect our players, but I don't think giving an honest opinion of their form or ability is in itself disrespectful. I think thats part and parcel of football.

If I say that I think Kuyt lacks pace or goal threat when played as a striker ..... thats my opinion. If I say that Kuyt is a clown/w@nker/t0sser etc etc  who shouldn't be allowed on a football pitch ..... thats disrespectful. 

I think it's important that we should be allowed to express honest opinions about the players,the manager and the team, but I don't think that means that we can say just anything.

great post saint - i will happily admit im one of kuyts biggest supporters and will back the lad . I know he has his faults and lacks certain attributes but some people concentrate on those negative attributes and totally ignore all the great positive stuff that he brings to the team  and the positive effect and his productivity forthe team . Also will agree people will the constant insults ie donkey/sh.it/ etc is very disrespectful towards him . also look at a lot of his goals from last season and most of them where scored when during the game he took up a strikers position so would be confident he could work well as a second striker but will agree he shouldnt lead a line as thats not his game and never has been - you could see last night in only a couple of segments that its a myth about lacking in attacking ability - just look at that ball he played   through to pacheco - great ball and if gerrard or xabi had played it we would of been praising it to high heaven . I am happy to predict that this season he will be as important and as productive as last