Liverpool FC Forum

[RobinHood6969]

Chris Eagles £1,250,000
Gerard Pique £6,000,000
Phil Bardsley £2,000,000
Ryan Shawcross £1,000,000
Giuseppe Rossi £6,700,000
Kieran Richardson £5,500,000

Thats in the last two years anyway.

Well saint Pique and Rossi aint Manure porducts TBH.. They were poached 

child traffickers     

[paddy]

Thats some pretty strong accusations there against our manager saying they dont get a chance because they come through the youth ranks ?? any backing to those accusations ?

Right lets be sensible.

How can i possibly have proof, its just my opinion.

Its based on the fact that despite winning the youth cup two seasons running and then the reserve league the following season only a couple of players have even had a sniff.

What Rafa has done instead is gone out an brought in some more squad players that hinder these young lads chances of ever getting a look in.
Degen is one of them, yes Finnan was going so we may have been short of cover but Stevie Darby was reserve team captain that won the league and then sees Rafa bring in Degen who was injury prone before he arrived and described by Dortmunds fans as nowhere near good enough for LFC.

You keep saying Nemeth was going to be promoted to the first team squad and would have been playing but for injuries.
How do you know ?
We had at the start of the season....

Torres
Keane
Kuyt
Babel

and then Rafa signed Ngog, another unproven player.
Thats five players and given that we often play just one striker with Gerrardit seems unlikely that Nemeth would have got a look in, its just your assumption.

Again like Darby that would be a massive kick in the teeth for someone who played so well and who is already playing full international football.

El Zahr who keeps getting mentioned is around the same age as Rooney so hardly a kid and he plays here and there.

Cant see the comparison and anyone who thinks kids get a fair crack of whip at LFC is blinded imho.

excellent post mate and bang on

[GYBS]

i mentioned nemeth because rafa even stated he would be getting chances this season during an interview this summer .

as i mentioned in other posts which other clubs do things different then ? which other club that is challenging for honours gives the kids a chance ?

Rafa is offering them new contracts so what exactly does that say about how rafa feels about them ? they all played a part in pre season to see how they got on , they have all made cameo appeareances to see how they get on and are being eased into the team when the timing is right , they have all had playing time during the CC and the odd chances duriing the cl and prem so they have had chances to show and they train every single day with the first team squad so rafa and his coaches can sit there and judge them .

These players have to show through the week that they can compete with the others - vital prem games (which is all of them ) isnt the time to bring these guys in - i can just see it now - darby plays right back - makes a few errors - we loose - he gets crucified and rafa gets slagged off for playing someone not ready - same for spearing.

[RobinHood6969]

Thats some pretty strong accusations there against our manager saying they dont get a chance because they come through the youth ranks ?? any backing to those accusations ?

Right lets be sensible.

How can i possibly have proof, its just my opinion.

Its based on the fact that despite winning the youth cup two seasons running and then the reserve league the following season only a couple of players have even had a sniff.

What Rafa has done instead is gone out an brought in some more squad players that hinder these young lads chances of ever getting a look in.
Degen is one of them, yes Finnan was going so we may have been short of cover but Stevie Darby was reserve team captain that won the league and then sees Rafa bring in Degen who was injury prone before he arrived and described by Dortmunds fans as nowhere near good enough for LFC.

You keep saying Nemeth was going to be promoted to the first team squad and would have been playing but for injuries.
How do you know ?
We had at the start of the season....

Torres
Keane
Kuyt
Babel

and then Rafa signed Ngog, another unproven player.
Thats five players and given that we often play just one striker with Gerrardit seems unlikely that Nemeth would have got a look in, its just your assumption.

Again like Darby that would be a massive kick in the teeth for someone who played so well and who is already playing full international football.

El Zahr who keeps getting mentioned is around the same age as Rooney so hardly a kid and he plays here and there.

Cant see the comparison and anyone who thinks kids get a fair crack of whip at LFC is blinded imho.

Well in that case we should be doind wat Arsene does. Play carling cup with youth teamers. and if we are knocked out very early i think all of us would start bashing our manager. This is just my thought. most of the arsenal wonder kids also spent quite a lot of time playing in the divisions before they get a run with the 1st team

[RobinHood6969]

i mentioned nemeth because rafa even stated he would be getting chances this season during an interview this summer .

as i mentioned in other posts which other clubs do things different then ? which other club that is challenging for honours gives the kids a chance ?

Rafa is offering them new contracts so what exactly does that say about how rafa feels about them ? they all played a part in pre season to see how they got on , they have all made cameo appeareances to see how they get on and are being eased into the team when the timing is right , they have all had playing time during the CC and the odd chances duriing the cl and prem so they have had chances to show and they train every single day with the first team squad so rafa and his coaches can sit there and judge them .

These players have to show through the week that they can compete with the others - vital prem games (which is all of them ) isnt the time to bring these guys in - i can just see it now - darby plays right back - makes a few errors - we loose - he gets crucified and rafa gets slagged off for playing someone not ready - same for spearing.

Exactly and the next time Darby gets a touch he gets booed. How would that make him a better player? a kid losing his confidence is like a man losing his manliness, both would never come back

[Owzat]

Chris Eagles £1,250,000
Gerard Pique £6,000,000
Phil Bardsley £2,000,000
Ryan Shawcross £1,000,000
Giuseppe Rossi £6,700,000
Kieran Richardson £5,500,000

Thats in the last two years anyway.

Well saint Pique and Rossi aint Manure porducts TBH.. They were poached 

..........fried, roasted, baked, boiled and then sent packing.

There's a thread on a general footy forum I go on and they were talking about which areas produce the "best talent" - NE, NW, SE, SW. You'd be surprised at the origination of some footballers commonly thought to have started their career at a big club.

Youth Careers according to wikipedia

Theo Walcott (AFC Newbury, Swindon, Southampton)
Gareth Barry (Brighton & HA)
Emile Heskey (Leicester City)
Michael Carrick (Wallsend Boys Club, West Ham)
Shaun Wright-Phillips (Notts Forest, Man City)
Matthew Upson (Luton Town)
John Terry (Senrab, Chelsea)
Jermaine Defoe (Senrab, Charlton)
Rio Ferdinand (Eltham Town, QPR, West Ham)
Peter Crouch (Tottenham)
Darren Bent (Ipswich)
David James (Watford)
Ben Foster (no listed youth, first club = Racing Club Warnock)
Rob Green (Norwich)

the page on Senrab is worth a read [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senrab_F.C.]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senrab_F.C.[/url][/color]

A few mancs/ex-mancs, not all claimed to be through the youth ranks, but I wonder if many fans knew their first club

Manc/ex-manc players youth careers

Rio Ferdinand (Eltham Town, QPR, West Ham)
Michael Carrick (Wallsend Boys Club, West Ham)

Kieran Richardson (West Ham, Man Utd)
Lee Martin (Wimbledon, Man Utd) - current, not the old one
Ryan Giggs (Man City, Man Utd)
David Beckham (Brimsdown Rovers, Man Utd)
Ben Amos (Crewe, Man Utd)
Giuseppe Rossi (Parma, Man Utd)
Sylvan Ebanks-Blake (Cambridge Utd, Man Utd)
Paul McShane (St Josephs Boys AFC, Man Utd)
Chris Eagles (Watford, Man Utd)
Ben Foster (no listed youth, first club = Racing Club Warnock)
Jonathan Greening (no listed youth, first club = York City)

Quite a few like nobhead neville, Brown, Welbeck, Scholes and Evans did come through their ranks, but not nearly as many as the popular myth - it's a myth that's grown because people assume origins. Ask where some of those players listed started, bar the hammers pair, and most will say Man Utd, as would I in some/most cases before I checked. That said they do produce a fair number of players, although not many break into the first team and establish themselves - Wes Brown about the last to do so with any regularity. West Ham is a club that gets credit, but isn't necessarily the first club a player played for

You can fairly safely assume the foreign ones are poached, I left out Zieler and Pique as they're more obvious although Rossi isn't exactly English. It's all too easy with the EU rules to poach youngsters, much bigger market and more talent than the English market - and less likely to be held to ransom, anyone seen how much Leeds want for their midfielder? (Delph)

It does beg the question whether the club is really worthy of credit for developing talent, or if they'd develop as great players no matter where ie nature vs nurture[/color]

[Ace Ventura]

Not sure if anyone is reading my posts or what i have said.

Just to clarify i dont think Rafa should be picking kids in the first team in general.

What i do think is that we shouldnt buy/bring in mediocre gamble squad players that stop the kids from getting near the first team even in the Carling cup games.
I mentioned the Degen situation yet it got ignored.

Just to advise you Darby and Spearing didnt play in the carling cup at all this season.
Plessis played as did El Zahr and Insua but they were all players that have been signed.

Darby and Spearing have been brought on in Europe when the game has been dead and buried.

I am not trying to beat Rafa with a stick, i agree that other top teams dont give younger players a look in enough either.

Thats why i agree with alot of the original article, whether the author has an ulterior motive against english sides or not.

We still all have over inflated squads that could be still strong enough if the numbers where trimmed and some of the most promising young lads given the odd game here and there.

[Ace Ventura]

i mentioned nemeth because rafa even stated he would be getting chances this season during an interview this summer .

as i mentioned in other posts which other clubs do things different then ? which other club that is challenging for honours gives the kids a chance ?

Rafa is offering them new contracts so what exactly does that say about how rafa feels about them ? they all played a part in pre season to see how they got on , they have all made cameo appeareances to see how they get on and are being eased into the team when the timing is right , they have all had playing time during the CC and the odd chances duriing the cl and prem so they have had chances to show and they train every single day with the first team squad so rafa and his coaches can sit there and judge them .

These players have to show through the week that they can compete with the others - vital prem games (which is all of them ) isnt the time to bring these guys in - i can just see it now - darby plays right back - makes a few errors - we loose - he gets crucified and rafa gets slagged off for playing someone not ready - same for spearing.

Exactly and the next time Darby gets a touch he gets booed. How would that make him a better player? a kid losing his confidence is like a man losing his manliness, both would never come back

And although we have seen some disgraceful booing of Lucas that has come after a long list of bad performances, i dont condone anything like that by the way but i dont think for one minute if we had no players at right back and Darby came in and made one mistake that he would get boo'd.

That imo would not happen at all.

[GYBS]

ok so rafa brought in an experienced international who hasnt worked out - if darby was better than degen then he would get the chance to show it on the training ground and when he got a chance - so far arbeloa has been playing right back and darby hasnt been needed causehe wont get in ahead of arbeloa - when arbeloa has been out carra has played there - still a better option than darby - so you can keep mentioning degen but degen hasntg stopped darby playing as degen hasnt been fit all season .

[account deleted by request]

NORTH WEST Premier League clubs whose current squads contain Academy graduates with at least one league appearance to their name

LIVERPOOL

None

EVERTON

Jack Rodwell

Jose Baxter

Leon Osman

James Vaughan

Tony Hibbert

Victor Anichebe

MANCHESTER CITY

Micah Richards

Nedum Onuoha

Michael Johnson

Daniel Sturridge

MANCHESTER UTD

Danny Welbeck

Jonny Evans

BLACKBURN

Keith Treacy

Matt Derbyshire

BOLTON

Joey O'Brien

WIGAN

Luke Ashworth

LINK TO FULL ARTICLE

[Ace Ventura]

ok so rafa brought in an experienced international who hasnt worked out - if darby was better than degen then he would get the chance to show it on the training ground and when he got a chance - so far arbeloa has been playing right back and darby hasnt been needed causehe wont get in ahead of arbeloa - when arbeloa has been out carra has played there - still a better option than darby - so you can keep mentioning degen but degen hasntg stopped darby playing as degen hasnt been fit all season .

Yes Rafa's inflated squad has though.

You have been saying Rafa has faith in Darby and Spearing hence the new contracts.

I am saying no he doesnt as if he did he wouldnt of played people out of position when there was an injury crisis.

There are alot of fans that are annoyed with that and even posters on here like Nanny red said they think he is good enough to be given a go.

Its very easy and i think personally naive to say that if they were good enough in training they would be getting a go.

Its clear to me that there is no chance of them proving they are good enough because even if there is a potential position due to injuries of their own positions then our squad is that large that there will always be a reshuffle rather than give someone a chance.

And just to say Johnny Evans at united has been given a chance in a key position.

[GYBS]

or maybe our manager feels an expericnced prem and international player will do better there than a youngster and to be fair i dont blame him one bit tbh as i expect pretty much every single one of us bar aac ouple  would do the same . evans was an international before he became a prem player for man utd proving himself on loan at another prem club first so that is not the same as darby . i myself would rather established players play ahead of un experinced youngsters in the prem when it is so crucial . the risks are far to great - i dont care where players come from as long as they are good enough . darby has played a few games and has been ok he is young and has plenty of time ahead of him to prove if he is worthy of a place in the team - but i will take carra at right back 100 times out of 100 over darby at right back in the prem .

[Ace Ventura]

Thats where we differ, i dont like Carra at right back for one, and also i think we need his organisation in the centre.

The only reason Lucas or other young kids have more experience than their english counterparts is because of the way the big clubs in england ignore young players.

The inevitable thing will happen with Darby and Spearing, loaned out then sold off for a few million at most.

Meanwhile we will likely sign a few players that are of similar or worse ability in their respective positions.

Why do i think that ?

Cos its been happening for years.

[GYBS]

and which one of these guys that we have sold on have gone onto prove us wrong ? How many major trophies did the last bunch of young talented kids we had win ? How many young liverpool lads did we have in those great teams of the 70s and 80s ? Why do we have to play young lads ? Were is the proof and backing that they need to play ?

[account deleted by request]

And where the f'uck would we be now but for Mcmanaman, Fowler, Owen, Carra and Gerrard. How many cups would we NOT HAVE WON if they hadn't come through.