Liverpool FC Forum

[Judge]

He gets stick for not showing passion.

He shows passion, he gets stick.

the stick is because weve lost a shed load of games in a short space

people are venting their frustration

[lakes10]

76 is a hell of a lot of players......................and we are star talking abiut it when its shown up that we dont have any good back up players, thats when you have got to ask what the hell has he been playing at for the last 3 years.

one thing Rafa should never be able moan about is not buying players, and as for trhis i keep reading that he has made a profit here and there................ he is not there to make a profit he is there to build a winning team.

[kazza]

76 is a hell of a lot of players......................and we are star talking abiut it when its shown up that we dont have any good back up players, thats when you have got to ask what the hell has he been playing at for the last 3 years.

one thing Rafa should never be able moan about is not buying players, and as for trhis i keep reading that he has made a profit here and there................ he is not there to make a profit he is there to build a winning team.

It seems the owners may disagree with you.

[access]

Hi new poster on here ....

I have been trawling the web for views and feedback on Rafa for the past week sad eh ...... only if to increase my views that 'he is' the right man for the job.

But the web is full of positive views and negative views ...this forum is full of supporters who will stand by Rafa through thick and thin and keep telling me/you/us that we have the right man NO DOUBT and I start to believe them.

But I have started to delve a bit deeper and there is always information that makes me think .... when people answer back to my views telling me Rafa is a first class coach and we could not get any better I tend to agree but statistics tell a different story see this article below my concerns relate the paragraph that relates to the 'state of Valencia' after he left .... read on.

I posted an article on here a week ago and within 10 minutes I had someone argueing each of my points and having a decent view on each.

But then I found this one?

First, a quick look into the past of the man, to see where he came from. The widely held view is he broke up the Madrid-Barca duopoly in Spain, winning La Liga and UEFA Cup with Valencia.

Delve a little deeper and you discover he was at Madrid in the late '80s and early '90s as a youth team coach. He left in 1994 and was appointed manager of Real Valladolid but was sacked after only two wins in 23 games with the club bottom of La Liga.

In 1996, Benítez took charge of Osasuna in the Second Division, but after only nine games and one win he was sacked. In 1997, he joined another Segunda División side, Extremadura, and led them to promotion, finishing second. They only survived one season in Primera División, however, and were relegated in 1999 after finishing 17th.

Benítez subsequently quit CF Extremadura and took a year out. In 2000, he was appointed manager of Tenerife in the Segunda División, a team that boasted Mista, Curro Torres and Luis Garcia. He gained promotion to La Liga by finishing third.

So, three second division jobs, two sackings, but success with a well-equipped team brings us to Valencia. At the time, Barcelona were almost bankrupt, anyone who has seen the Laporta documentaries knows this; he spent two years rebuilding the club. Real Madrid were at the tail end of the first Galactico era, and we all know how that story ends.

So along comes Rafa, with a club that, before he arrived, was good enough to reach the Champions League Final. He spends countless millions on Marchena, Mista, Curro Torres, Rufete, de los Santos, and Salva—and in doing so delivers two La Liga titles and a UEFA Cup.

Then he leaves for Liverpool, and ‘’Valencia are almost bankrupt’’, still battling today to pay for the excess's of delivering that side. He sells Owen, buys Alonso and Garcia. With no small amount of luck, he takes Houllier's team to a penalty shoot out cup win and is hailed a genius.

So now the man runs the club top to bottom. Are Liverpool a better, more competitive outfit for it? Is the team, man for man, better than in Houllier's era?

Where are the bright prospects coming through?

Where is any evidence that he is the right man doing a good job?

THEN I HAVE DOUBTS AGAIN

[Benny The Noon]

76 players? i thought it was 67 with 30 plus of those players being youngsters ?!

[Emerald Red]

76 players? i thought it was 67 with 30 plus of those players being youngsters ?!

It is. But Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! Don't tell anyone that. Some people like to see a big number and be aghast by it.

[Benny The Noon]

76 players? i thought it was 67 with 30 plus of those players being youngsters ?!

It is. But Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! Don't tell anyone that. Some people like to see a big number and be aghast by it.

Right im with you - manipulating the stats to prove the point .

[GRAHAM01]

76 players? i thought it was 67 with 30 plus of those players being youngsters ?!

It is. But Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! Don't tell anyone that. Some people like to see a big number and be aghast by it.

Right im with you - manipulating the stats to prove the point .

people will see what they want to see! everyone knows rafa has bought a lot of younsters in to the club over the past 5 years and a lot of so called first team players

some have work some have not, i think more so in the youngster there are a lot still at the club, now how many of them show up to be good/great first team players?? well i guess only time will tell

but what if in 2/3 years time 3 of those 30 younsters comes through and become good/great first team players, would many be moaning about the small amount paid on them or would it be forgotten? as by then he may not even be at the club any more?

a few people have talked about arsene wenger being able to spot good young talent, which is very true but he has been at ars for a long time now and i wonder how many of these younsters that are coming through now for him where bought 4 or 5 years ago

like many great things some times they need a little bit of time to form in to that great thing

it shouldn't be the case where we need to get 30 in to make 3 good players but that is what has happened, who know maybe 10 or more may come good given time and then rafa would be saying well see i told you so

only trouble with that is we want to win things now and in the future not just in the future.......

[stmichael]

Fair analysis this  i think.





The truth behind Benitez
By Norman Hubbard
(Archive)
November 12, 2009
Comment
Email
Print
He has won the Champions League, but only one of his last nine fixtures. He still appears adored by many on the Kop, but is derided by still more on messageboards and phone-ins. He is one of the most divisive figures in football. But how many of the criticisms commonly levelled at Rafa Benitez stand up to analysis?


TonyMarshall/Empics

Rafael Benitez: Always on the touchline

1. Benitez practises a rotation policy

Once this was unarguable. The 2-0 win against Fulham in November 2007 was the first time in exactly 100 games that the Liverpool manager named an unchanged team. Now, however, the picture is very different. Jose Reina, Lucas Leiva and Dirk Kuyt have started every Premier League game this season. Emiliano Insua has only missed one. Glen Johnson and Jamie Carragher were ever-presents until injury and suspension respectively ended their runs in the team. And few question the places occupied by Steven Gerrard and Fernando Torres in the manager's plans.

2. Benitez prioritises Europe over the Premier League

It was an allegation voiced by the former Liverpool midfielder Ronnie Whelan recently. It is another that had some truth initially. In the last 18 months, however, there can be little doubt that Benitez's views have changed and there is a recognition that his reputation depends in part upon winning the Premier League. The weakest side he has fielded this season, at Fulham, had far less to do with the proximity of the trip to Lyon than injuries and illness that ruled out Gerrard, Johnson, Daniel Agger, Martin Skrtel, Albert Riera, Fabio Aurelio, Alberto Aquilani and Martin Kelly.

3. He has signed a lot of players and too few have succeeded

That is definitely true. In total, 76 have arrived at Anfield during his five-and-a-half years at the helm. Of those, 38 - in this observer's estimation - were not initially signed as first team players. A few, such as Insua, have become regulars; others - Dani Pacheco, Krisztian Nemeth, Daniel Sanchez Ayala, Mikel San Jose, Peter Gulacsi - are sufficiently young that they may yet emulate the Argentine. Many more of those 38, however, have already left Anfield, often as anonymous as when they arrived (Godwin Antwi and Besian Idrizaj, for instance).

The other 38 include 19 members of the current first team squad. Of those who have come and gone, five - Xabi Alonso, Luis Garcia, Alvaro Arbeloa, Momo Sissoko and Peter Crouch - justify being called successes. A further four - Scott Carson, Robbie Fowler, Craig Bellamy and Jermaine Pennant - produced mixed returns. The remaining 10 - Antonio Nunez, Josemi, Fernando Morientes, Mauricio Pellegrino, Bolo Zenden, Jan Kromkamp, Mark Gonzalez, Gabriel Paletta, Sebastian Leto and Robbie Keane - can safely be said to have failed. However, Benitez is entitled to argue that he made profits on several and that only Keane and Morientes ranked as expensive additions.

4. He has spent a lot of money

In the wider scheme of things, that is certainly correct. A total of £229 million is certainly substantial. It is, however, less than Manchester City's outlay in the last three transfer windows and little more than Chelsea's expenditure in the first 13 months after Roman Abramovich's takeover. It also excludes the money raised by selling players: around £118 million, meaning that, in six summers, his average spend is under £20 million. Whatever George Gillett and Tom Hicks insist, Benitez made a £12 million profit in January while his summer dealings only cost £2 million after the proceeds of the sales. In assessing the biggest buys, there is invariably the question of where the line is drawn, but of the 10 costliest, two - Aquilani and Johnson - are too soon into their Anfield careers to assess; three - Keane, Ryan Babel and Andrea Dossena - have disappointed; and five - Torres, Mascherano, Alonso, Crouch and Kuyt - have flourished.


MikeEgerton/Empics

Rafael Benitez: A man under pressure

5. Liverpool haven't improved under Benitez

Benitez is entitled to argue that he started from a lower base than their three principal rivals. In Gerard Houllier's final season, 2003-04, Liverpool amassed 60 points (30 fewer than Arsenal, 19 less than Chelsea and putting them 15 behind Manchester United). In Benitez's first year, they took 58 (37 behind Chelsea, 25 less than Arsenal and leaving them 19 adrift of Manchester United). It supports the argument that he inherited a substandard squad overloaded with deadwood. Last season, Liverpool ended with 86 points. That indicates a considerable improvement. However, with 19 points from 12 games thus far this campaign, they are only on course for 60. Does that mean they have progressed and then regressed?

6. Benitez fails as a man-manager

Separately, Torres, Gerrard and Carragher have all said that they struggle to think of conversations with Benitez that weren't about football. It suggests he is only interested in footballers as players, rather than as people. Alonso's departure this year can certainly be attributed to Benitez's attitude during his attempts to sell his fellow Spaniard the previous summer. Yet if Benitez's methods do not make him the next Harry Redknapp, the moaners have generally been those who did not feature regularly and many of his players, past and present, have produced the best form of their careers under him. And they include, in Gerrard, Torres, Carragher, Alonso, Reina and Mascherano, the leading players at Anfield in that time.

7. His interference harms players

It was a complaint voiced by Pennant, who said he was frustrated by his manager's continual presence on the touchline, forever conveying orders. Benitez could respond that his attention to detail has been responsible for some of his tactical triumphs and that tinkering with his players' positions has had benefits. Under Houllier, Carragher was normally deployed at full-back and Gerrard was sometimes the deepest man in midfield. Converting both to new roles has been justified.

8. He is a poor judge of a striker

It is an argument that gathers weight every time Andriy Voronin is on the pitch and one that is used against Benitez whenever Crouch, Keane or Bellamy scores. Nevertheless, it is worth remembering that the two Tottenham forwards made their exit in part because the success of the Gerrard-Torres axis limited their opportunities, a fate that might have befallen Michael Owen had Benitez opted to bring him back to Anfield. Bellamy's exit, which has been lamented rather more in the past two months than during the previous two years, helped finance the signing of Torres. While there have been striking failures, notably Morientes, Benitez moved for Torres when others appeared unsure of his quality.

9. His is a two-man team

Liverpool did beat Manchester United 14 months ago in a match that neither Gerrard nor Torres started, but they slumped more recently at Sunderland when both were absent. Players of the calibre of Carragher, Kuyt, Reina and Mascherano could dispute that oft-heard analysis. What may be truer to say is that when Liverpool's captain and top scorer are missing, there is a reliance on Yossi Benayoun for invention. And what is probable is that most teams, to some degree or another, are dependent upon their two premier attacking talents.

10. Benitez is a defensive manager

It is another one to irritate the Liverpool manager. His preference for two holding midfielders, which was apparent from his time in Spain, is well known and helps account for Gerrard's berth further forward. But whereas there was a time when Liverpool were far from prolific - they only mustered 57 league goals in the 2006-07 campaign, for instance - they outscored Manchester United, Chelsea and Arsenal to end up with 90 last year.

11. The team miss Xabi Alonso

Gerrard has admitted it and few would dispute it. But until Aquilani is available on a regular basis, it remains to be seen just how much Liverpool will miss the Basque playmaker in the long term.



http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns....cc=5901

that's a really really good article that

[Judge]

whatever the stats are on players in, 60+ is alot. With that lot we shouldve at least won the prem, or be so near each year - its not happened.

no more excuses, we have dead weight in our team, and no depth of squad to seriously challenge

at this rate we will struggle to finish 4th

[made in UK]

Fair analysis this  i think.





The truth behind Benitez
By Norman Hubbard
(Archive)
November 12, 2009
Comment
Email
Print
He has won the Champions League, but only one of his last nine fixtures. He still appears adored by many on the Kop, but is derided by still more on messageboards and phone-ins. He is one of the most divisive figures in football. But how many of the criticisms commonly levelled at Rafa Benitez stand up to analysis?


TonyMarshall/Empics

Rafael Benitez: Always on the touchline

1. Benitez practises a rotation policy

Once this was unarguable. The 2-0 win against Fulham in November 2007 was the first time in exactly 100 games that the Liverpool manager named an unchanged team. Now, however, the picture is very different. Jose Reina, Lucas Leiva and Dirk Kuyt have started every Premier League game this season. Emiliano Insua has only missed one. Glen Johnson and Jamie Carragher were ever-presents until injury and suspension respectively ended their runs in the team. And few question the places occupied by Steven Gerrard and Fernando Torres in the manager's plans.

2. Benitez prioritises Europe over the Premier League

It was an allegation voiced by the former Liverpool midfielder Ronnie Whelan recently. It is another that had some truth initially. In the last 18 months, however, there can be little doubt that Benitez's views have changed and there is a recognition that his reputation depends in part upon winning the Premier League. The weakest side he has fielded this season, at Fulham, had far less to do with the proximity of the trip to Lyon than injuries and illness that ruled out Gerrard, Johnson, Daniel Agger, Martin Skrtel, Albert Riera, Fabio Aurelio, Alberto Aquilani and Martin Kelly.

3. He has signed a lot of players and too few have succeeded

That is definitely true. In total, 76 have arrived at Anfield during his five-and-a-half years at the helm. Of those, 38 - in this observer's estimation - were not initially signed as first team players. A few, such as Insua, have become regulars; others - Dani Pacheco, Krisztian Nemeth, Daniel Sanchez Ayala, Mikel San Jose, Peter Gulacsi - are sufficiently young that they may yet emulate the Argentine. Many more of those 38, however, have already left Anfield, often as anonymous as when they arrived (Godwin Antwi and Besian Idrizaj, for instance).

The other 38 include 19 members of the current first team squad. Of those who have come and gone, five - Xabi Alonso, Luis Garcia, Alvaro Arbeloa, Momo Sissoko and Peter Crouch - justify being called successes. A further four - Scott Carson, Robbie Fowler, Craig Bellamy and Jermaine Pennant - produced mixed returns. The remaining 10 - Antonio Nunez, Josemi, Fernando Morientes, Mauricio Pellegrino, Bolo Zenden, Jan Kromkamp, Mark Gonzalez, Gabriel Paletta, Sebastian Leto and Robbie Keane - can safely be said to have failed. However, Benitez is entitled to argue that he made profits on several and that only Keane and Morientes ranked as expensive additions.

4. He has spent a lot of money

In the wider scheme of things, that is certainly correct. A total of £229 million is certainly substantial. It is, however, less than Manchester City's outlay in the last three transfer windows and little more than Chelsea's expenditure in the first 13 months after Roman Abramovich's takeover. It also excludes the money raised by selling players: around £118 million, meaning that, in six summers, his average spend is under £20 million. Whatever George Gillett and Tom Hicks insist, Benitez made a £12 million profit in January while his summer dealings only cost £2 million after the proceeds of the sales. In assessing the biggest buys, there is invariably the question of where the line is drawn, but of the 10 costliest, two - Aquilani and Johnson - are too soon into their Anfield careers to assess; three - Keane, Ryan Babel and Andrea Dossena - have disappointed; and five - Torres, Mascherano, Alonso, Crouch and Kuyt - have flourished.


MikeEgerton/Empics

Rafael Benitez: A man under pressure

5. Liverpool haven't improved under Benitez

Benitez is entitled to argue that he started from a lower base than their three principal rivals. In Gerard Houllier's final season, 2003-04, Liverpool amassed 60 points (30 fewer than Arsenal, 19 less than Chelsea and putting them 15 behind Manchester United). In Benitez's first year, they took 58 (37 behind Chelsea, 25 less than Arsenal and leaving them 19 adrift of Manchester United). It supports the argument that he inherited a substandard squad overloaded with deadwood. Last season, Liverpool ended with 86 points. That indicates a considerable improvement. However, with 19 points from 12 games thus far this campaign, they are only on course for 60. Does that mean they have progressed and then regressed?

6. Benitez fails as a man-manager

Separately, Torres, Gerrard and Carragher have all said that they struggle to think of conversations with Benitez that weren't about football. It suggests he is only interested in footballers as players, rather than as people. Alonso's departure this year can certainly be attributed to Benitez's attitude during his attempts to sell his fellow Spaniard the previous summer. Yet if Benitez's methods do not make him the next Harry Redknapp, the moaners have generally been those who did not feature regularly and many of his players, past and present, have produced the best form of their careers under him. And they include, in Gerrard, Torres, Carragher, Alonso, Reina and Mascherano, the leading players at Anfield in that time.

7. His interference harms players

It was a complaint voiced by Pennant, who said he was frustrated by his manager's continual presence on the touchline, forever conveying orders. Benitez could respond that his attention to detail has been responsible for some of his tactical triumphs and that tinkering with his players' positions has had benefits. Under Houllier, Carragher was normally deployed at full-back and Gerrard was sometimes the deepest man in midfield. Converting both to new roles has been justified.

8. He is a poor judge of a striker

It is an argument that gathers weight every time Andriy Voronin is on the pitch and one that is used against Benitez whenever Crouch, Keane or Bellamy scores. Nevertheless, it is worth remembering that the two Tottenham forwards made their exit in part because the success of the Gerrard-Torres axis limited their opportunities, a fate that might have befallen Michael Owen had Benitez opted to bring him back to Anfield. Bellamy's exit, which has been lamented rather more in the past two months than during the previous two years, helped finance the signing of Torres. While there have been striking failures, notably Morientes, Benitez moved for Torres when others appeared unsure of his quality.

9. His is a two-man team

Liverpool did beat Manchester United 14 months ago in a match that neither Gerrard nor Torres started, but they slumped more recently at Sunderland when both were absent. Players of the calibre of Carragher, Kuyt, Reina and Mascherano could dispute that oft-heard analysis. What may be truer to say is that when Liverpool's captain and top scorer are missing, there is a reliance on Yossi Benayoun for invention. And what is probable is that most teams, to some degree or another, are dependent upon their two premier attacking talents.

10. Benitez is a defensive manager

It is another one to irritate the Liverpool manager. His preference for two holding midfielders, which was apparent from his time in Spain, is well known and helps account for Gerrard's berth further forward. But whereas there was a time when Liverpool were far from prolific - they only mustered 57 league goals in the 2006-07 campaign, for instance - they outscored Manchester United, Chelsea and Arsenal to end up with 90 last year.

11. The team miss Xabi Alonso

Gerrard has admitted it and few would dispute it. But until Aquilani is available on a regular basis, it remains to be seen just how much Liverpool will miss the Basque playmaker in the long term.



http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns....cc=5901

that's a really really good article that

That is not an analysis, that is a brief summary with holes in it.

[Owzat]

re the article which makes a few good points, but some of their logic is flawed with a few odd comparisons and selective citation

1. I had to laugh at this, saying Rafa didn't rotate any more by comparing the first time in 100 games Rafa named an unchanged side and saying because SOME players now are everpresents that Rafa doesn't rotate. I think you'll find that quite a lot of players played every game in 2007 when rotation was rife.

2. Rafa took Torres off after around 63 mins at 1-1 against Fulham, but when we needed a winner against Lyon he somehow stayed on until a few minutes from the end until just after what could have been the winner was scored. We didn't need to prioritise the CL last season as we walked the group, this only really rears its ugly head when we are struggling to progress

4. He compares our spending with the super rich citeh and chelski, does that not say it all? "Oh well, we've spent less than the richest of the rich", how about comparing with what the mancs and goners have spent. Too selective in comparing, surprised he didn't get the nets out.

5. It's hard to say if we've really improved as the league has changed so much. It goes hand in hand with spending as the rich get richer, the poor get relegated. Our squad is the main bone of contention, without just one or two players we lose six out of seven - even then they didn't all miss all the defeats. We haven't won a trophy since 2006, we did very well last season but had we not won at Stamford Bridge would we not have finished third?

6. Hard to know the full story unless you really do have inside information.

7. He won't be the first manager to play players out of position, he won't be the last. But players like what they are used to and comfortable with, I would take anything Peasant says with a pinch of salt

8. Is he a poor judge of a striker or simply unwilling to give them a chance? How long did Keane, Fowler, Morientes, Bellamy and Kuyt get as strikers outright? 1.5 seasons sound about right? Voronin is only just into 1.5 seasons playing at the club with one season at Hertha, he may go in January if the fans get their wish which would make 2.5 seasons of which 1.5 were in the red of Liverpool.

9. Nice selectivity in examples, without Torres and Gerrard we might win the odd game because the players lift themselves and cope, but we look a poor side most games without. No doubt Kuyt, Reina and the rest he lists are good players, but are they match winners in their own right? Kuyt is about the closest to that, but is he the same player when more burden is placed on his shoulders to carry the attack?

10. Debatable obviously because ONE season's stats contradict the norm. We've scored a lot of goals this season, but six against Hull and four each against Stoke and Burnley hardly typify our week in, week out goals return. Bottom line is we've always tended to knock in goals against the weaker sides, the tail end of last season we were in great scoring form but not that great in early 08/09. And how many of our countless draws last season were 3-3 or 4-4?

11. Until we put out Rafa's first choice XI in full strength for a few games, how can anyone tell? The Alonso money was spent on Aquilani who's barely played, by the time he does settle in and Johnson, Gerrard AND Torres are all fit and playing week in, week out, Mascherano could be sold in January and that may influence the whole balance of the side as much as Alonso's absence. What we are missing is defensive solidity, conceding needless free-kicks and corners to give away too many goals as well as from poor marking in open play. I don't expect us to win 1-0 all the time, but we are neither solid at the back nor free-flowing enough in scoring to win 3-2 every game.

[LFC2007]

He gets stick for not showing passion.

He shows passion, he gets stick.

the stick is because weve lost a shed load of games in a short space

people are venting their frustration

I was referring to a different kind of stick.

The kind you see saying that he's 'cold', 'arrogant', 'only in it for the money' and that he should "Show some passion FFS!  "

[lakes10]

76 players? i thought it was 67 with 30 plus of those players being youngsters ?!

It is. But Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! Don't tell anyone that. Some people like to see a big number and be aghast by it.

if you have had talk sports on today you would have heard them read out all thr 76 names  and age,

i was sure there was a lot more younger players than there was, so even i was worng on that.

more so how the young players that they listed that have now left the club without playing a game in any liverpool team

i am starting to wonder if its a problem with our scots and not the manager that so many players are coming to the club and turn out to be .

[Emerald Red]

76 players? i thought it was 67 with 30 plus of those players being youngsters ?!

It is. But Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! Don't tell anyone that. Some people like to see a big number and be aghast by it.

if you have had talk sports on today you would have heard them read out all thr 76 names  and age,

i was sure there was a lot more younger players than there was, so even i was worng on that.

more so how the young players that they listed that have now left the club without playing a game in any liverpool team

i am starting to wonder if its a problem with our scots and not the manager that so many players are coming to the club and turn out to be .

I don't listen to the media. They're mostly all gobshytes that speculate anyway. They have to make their shows interesting, and by interesting they have to invent sh*t half the time. The quote about players coming here and turning out sh*t has nothing to do with them being good or bad players. Most of them are decent players that just can't adjust to the league. If anyone here is to tell me that Morientes is a sh*t player, I'd sugest they take their face for a sh*te. Brilliant player; just couldn't adjust. Dossena is a similar example. He's not as bad a player as people like to think.