Liverpool FC Forum

[heimdall]

Rafa got it so wrong last night by playing Voronin.  He offered absolutely nothing in the first half yet Rafa kept him on until the 68th min. 

You can't defend the decision to play him never mind persist with him until the 68th minute.  It is nothing new for Rafa though, he has done it with Kuyt, Lucas and others in the past.

He also has a habit of bringing off players who are having a good game, he doesn't like bringing off either of his beloved holding players even if we need to score.

The man is an enigma, there's no method in his madness but there's madness in his method!

I'm actually starting to think he's a bit dim, some of his decisions just don't make any footballing sense at all, e.g Voronin. Also why in the feck did he not play Aquaman, at least give him 20 minutes and tell him to stake a claim, become a hero.

Because he isn't fit you sad fool. DO you even think about things before you type them?

I wish you would accidentally break your laptop and give us all a break from your feeble posts.

I'll break it for you if you want?

OK Why dn't you try and break my laptop.

"Lando who stares at keyboards" 

Why do you have to insult people Lando, surely with your vast intellect you can rise above it, or are you maybe not quite as clever and witty as you think.

If Aquaman wasn't fit, why was he on the bench, that doesn't make any sense to me and why was Nando taken off with 5 minutes to go, would those 5 minutes have injured him any more?

[heimdall]

Damn, you've got to admire Lando.  Defending Rafa on here must be a really hard job, especially with so many wum pr!cks lurking around this place at the moment.

I don't know he has plenty of support from great contributors like yourself.

Awesome post btw.   

[Emerald Red]

Damn, you've got to admire Lando.  Defending Rafa on here must be a really hard job, especially with so many wum pr!cks lurking around this place at the moment.

The holy trinity:

The Fans
The Team
The Manager

[Emerald Red]

If Aquaman wasn't fit, why was he on the bench, that doesn't make any sense to me and why was Nando taken off with 5 minutes to go, would those 5 minutes have injured him any more?

Aquilani wasn't 100 percent fit, but could possibly still play should either Lucas or Mascherano get injured on the pitch. Ever had a flu and play a football match, Heimdall? I can tell you now, you only have the energy to last about 15 minutes at best. Rafa also took Torres to that game and it was a big risk him doing so. Torres is still not 100 percent fit, and he wasn't himself all game. In fact, Babel came on and carried more threat than Torres did in almost 90 minutes, so that shows how f*cked he was. Don't be surprised if he needs an op, but then again, if he does you'll probably blame Rafa for that as well.

[bigmick]

In fairness people who are defenders of the faith moan about people "blaming everything on Rafa", and then with posters such as Heimdall they instantly give it the old "Oh FFS I don't believe this sh!t" even when he asks a perfectly reasonable question. It's not a question of "blaming everything on Rafa" (and I actually thought we played well the other night and said so a number of times) but there are legitimate questions. One of them of course is Aquilani. Obviously if he was fit enough to be on the bench he was capable of playing at least for some time, and it's a reasonable question to ask why he didn't. Now I don't really care whether he did or didn't to be perfectly honest, nor am I convinced he would have had an effect either way, but the question in itself is not ridiculous, as much as some people would prefer to pretend it is.

Similarly, I don't myself think taking Torres off "invited them onto us" anymore than would have been the case anyway. I do think it is legitimate though to question whether resting him for four minutes made any difference (I'd have taken him off much earlier to be honest), and also it is reasonable to ask whether putting on a defender rather than N'Gog might have been the call.

Equally, I think it's reasonable to ask whether we may have been better starting with Babel than Voronin (as I did before the match). 


Unfortunately though, as some people are so desperately keen to smother any sensible football debate and "stand up for the manager", the minute anybody asks a question they simply get shouted down which is a shame.

[Owzat]

He's taking us backwards, they say. Houllier was a better manager; his squad is no better. Blah!

I'd just like to hearken back the fact that Rafa has had more wins in his first 200 games in the league than any other manager to have managed us in the league.

It's a nonsense stat mate and you know it so why put it up? It used to be two points for a win, so a draw at a lower team was a good result. That takes out of the equation all the managers before the change to the rules.

Just like the "he's signed 67 players" is a nonsense statement, so is this.

It's not a nonsense stat. How can you say it's a nonsense stat? It's a fact, is it not?

It may be a "fact", but the accompanying fact is that football is different, sides win the league with more points and the money factor means there is a gulf between the top sides and the rest. Here's a fact for you, more people have died in airplane crashes since airplanes were invented than did before they were invented! The point bigmick is making is that you can't take it at face value.

Sure he's got the third highest wins percentage of Liverpool managers in the top flight, for what that is worth. If that was the be all and end all we wouldn't be debating his future, we'd be celebrating more success than ever before. But even with that fantastic record as "fact", we haven't won the league - I wonder why that might be....................... (see point about difference between football now and in the past if you're stuck for an answer)

That's why he has enjoyed more success relatively speaking in Europe, two-legged ties and no need to win 70%+ of your games. I've long since said that you need to win about 27 games to win the league, Rafa has managed 25 as his best which is way better than his overall wins percentage.

But let's look at other cold hard 'facts', ones that don't rely purely on factors that have changed and therefore make comparison pointless.

LIVERPOOL MANAGERS BY TOP FLIGHT FINISHES

League Titles

6 Sir Bob Paisley
3 Sir Kenny Dalglish
3 Sir Bill Shankly

Runners-Up

3 Sir Kenny Dalglish
2 Sir Bob Paisley
2 Sir Bill Shankly
2 Tom Watson

3rd Place

2 Roy Evans
2 Rafa Benitez
2 Sir Bill Shankly

Rankings are ordered by number, then by fewest seasons in charge which is why Roy is above Rafa who is in turn above Sir Bill in terms of 3rd place finishes.

If we're to use the kind of logic that suggests most wins in first 200 games means in some way Rafa is one of our better managers, does that mean he's also a better manager than Sir Bill Shankly because Rafa won the European Cup and Sir Bill didn't? Or perhaps we all realise that to win the European Cup in the old days you had to be Champions of your domestic league which we haven't been since 1990. I wonder how many European Cups we and indeed Sir Bill could boast if the top four qualified back then. He'd have had another four shots at it.

[LFC2007]

Says the bloke who argued that stats tell you "whatever they show"

[Emerald Red]

Look, argue the toss all you want. Fact is, it's a figure that raised a few eyebrows when it was brought to the attention of supporters not so long ago. No matter what age of football we're in, it's still an impressive statistic. Point being, that if we've a manager that is supposed to be taking us backwards, then I hope we can keep going backwards. What's that saying, two steps backwards, one step forward? Erm, now that is being ironic.

[SupitsJonF]

-edit-

[lakes10]

Look, argue the toss all you want. Fact is, it's a figure that raised a few eyebrows when it was brought to the attention of supporters not so long ago. No matter what age of football we're in, it's still an impressive statistic. Point being, that if we've a manager that is supposed to be taking us backwards, then I hope we can keep going backwards. What's that saying, two steps backwards, one step forward? Erm, now that is being ironic.

yes mate and the amount of win over the last few weeks if we keep going like that we will be going backwards into the Championship.

I know you dont like it but football has moved on so much in 20 years and managers today can not be stated up with old managers, theres too much money in the game now, if any of the top 4 teams dont end up in the top 4 then the managers job is at risk, that would not have happend 20 years ago.

with better tv rights and CL and overseas game bringing in so much moneys any owner will make the top 4 spots as a must.

i tell you now that if man u did not make the top 4 for 2 years there would be a new manager there.

[Bad Bob]

In fairness people who are defenders of the faith moan about people "blaming everything on Rafa", and then with posters such as Heimdall they instantly give it the old "Oh FFS I don't believe this sh!t" even when he asks a perfectly reasonable question. It's not a question of "blaming everything on Rafa" (and I actually thought we played well the other night and said so a number of times) but there are legitimate questions. One of them of course is Aquilani. Obviously if he was fit enough to be on the bench he was capable of playing at least for some time, and it's a reasonable question to ask why he didn't. Now I don't really care whether he did or didn't to be perfectly honest, nor am I convinced he would have had an effect either way, but the question in itself is not ridiculous, as much as some people would prefer to pretend it is.

Similarly, I don't myself think taking Torres off "invited them onto us" anymore than would have been the case anyway. I do think it is legitimate though to question whether resting him for four minutes made any difference (I'd have taken him off much earlier to be honest), and also it is reasonable to ask whether putting on a defender rather than N'Gog might have been the call.

Equally, I think it's reasonable to ask whether we may have been better starting with Babel than Voronin (as I did before the match). 


Unfortunately though, as some people are so desperately keen to smother any sensible football debate and "stand up for the manager", the minute anybody asks a question they simply get shouted down which is a shame.

Would agree with you about the shouting down, Mick but I think part of why it happens is because Heimdall's "perfectly reasonable question" (to take one instance) was prefaced by "I'm starting to think Rafa's a bit dim".  Sadly, that takes what might ordinarily be construed as a reasonable question and bungs it deep into handbags country.  Maybe it's time to acknowledge that both 'camps' need to work a lot harder at fostering quality discussion around here.  Obviously I'm not condoning abuse but I'm not a big fan of the sly wind-ups that often start the ball rolling either.

[Emerald Red]

Look, argue the toss all you want. Fact is, it's a figure that raised a few eyebrows when it was brought to the attention of supporters not so long ago. No matter what age of football we're in, it's still an impressive statistic. Point being, that if we've a manager that is supposed to be taking us backwards, then I hope we can keep going backwards. What's that saying, two steps backwards, one step forward? Erm, now that is being ironic.

yes mate and the amount of win over the last few weeks if we keep going like that we will be going backwards into the Championship.

I know you dont like it but football has moved on so much in 20 years and managers today can not be stated up with old managers, theres too much money in the game now, if any of the top 4 teams dont end up in the top 4 then the managers job is at risk, that would not have happend 20 years ago.

with better tv rights and CL and overseas game bringing in so much moneys any owner will make the top 4 spots as a must.

i tell you now that if man u did not make the top 4 for 2 years there would be a new manager there.

Lakes, if we - or any other club - sacked their manager every time they had a bad spell due to an atrocious injury crisis in the league, then clubs would be changing managers two or three times a season. And before anyone starts that it's not down to just injuries, IMO, it's MOSTLY down to injuries. I don't give a f*ck what anyone says: if you take 8 players (we'd 10 at one point) out of any squad, anywhere in the world, then that team will suffer big time. Our team is not as sh*t as some over-reactionaries like to think. Wait until we get at least something that resembles our first team running for a few games before at least attempting to make out that everything is down to Mr Benitez. This is the worst injury list I've ever seen in my time as a Liverpool supporter of 20 or so years and it's reflecting on our season.

Another thing: Torres has been battling through a hernia problem. People moaned about why Rafa was taking him off against Fulham, well there's the answer. People would also moan why he wouldn't have started against Lyon seeing he got taken off. Rafa said he was taking a risk with him. So does Rafa play Torres and risk injuring him for about another 2 months, or does he play him for a bit, then sub him? (which happend). What would happen if Rafa played him and he got badly injured? Sure enough, people would b*tch about him playing him in the first place. The man cannot win! I can understand the press being w"nkers about such a thing, but our own fans? It's now looking very likely that Fernando will need an op, as will Gerrard

[lakes10]

Look, argue the toss all you want. Fact is, it's a figure that raised a few eyebrows when it was brought to the attention of supporters not so long ago. No matter what age of football we're in, it's still an impressive statistic. Point being, that if we've a manager that is supposed to be taking us backwards, then I hope we can keep going backwards. What's that saying, two steps backwards, one step forward? Erm, now that is being ironic.

yes mate and the amount of win over the last few weeks if we keep going like that we will be going backwards into the Championship.

I know you dont like it but football has moved on so much in 20 years and managers today can not be stated up with old managers, theres too much money in the game now, if any of the top 4 teams dont end up in the top 4 then the managers job is at risk, that would not have happend 20 years ago.

with better tv rights and CL and overseas game bringing in so much moneys any owner will make the top 4 spots as a must.

i tell you now that if man u did not make the top 4 for 2 years there would be a new manager there.

Lakes, if we - or any other club - sacked their manager every time they had a bad spell due to an atrocious injury crisis in the league, then clubs would be changing managers two or three times a season. And before anyone starts that it's not down to just injuries, IMO, it's MOSTLY down to injuries. I don't give a f*ck what anyone says: if you take 8 players (we'd 10 at one point) out of any squad, anywhere in the world, then that team will suffer big time. Our team is not as sh*t as some over-reactionaries like to think. Wait until we get at least something that resembles our first team running for a few games before at least attempting to make out that everything is down to Mr Benitez. This is the worst injury list I've ever seen in my time as a Liverpool supporter of 20 or so years and it's reflecting on our season.

Another thing: Torres has been battling through a hernia problem. People moaned about why Rafa was taking him off against Fulham, well there's the answer. People would also moan why he wouldn't have started against Lyon seeing he got taken off. Rafa said he was taking a risk with him. So does Rafa play Torres and risk injuring him for about another 2 months, or does he play him for a bit, then sub him? (which happend). What would happen if Rafa played him and he got badly injured? Sure enough, people would b*tch about him playing him in the first place. The man cannot win! I can understand the press being w"nkers about such a thing, but our own fans? It's now looking very likely that Fernando will need an op, as will Gerrard

injury list/ other teams have had it just as bad mate, yet they had a better bench than us, look at man u the other year, almost the whole team was out yet they still won the prem.

the problem i that if Rafa had spent more time building a better bench and not just youth players, having 3 big players out would not hurt as much.

[bunglemark2]

Look, argue the toss all you want. Fact is, it's a figure that raised a few eyebrows when it was brought to the attention of supporters not so long ago. No matter what age of football we're in, it's still an impressive statistic. Point being, that if we've a manager that is supposed to be taking us backwards, then I hope we can keep going backwards. What's that saying, two steps backwards, one step forward? Erm, now that is being ironic.

yes mate and the amount of win over the last few weeks if we keep going like that we will be going backwards into the Championship.

I know you dont like it but football has moved on so much in 20 years and managers today can not be stated up with old managers, theres too much money in the game now, if any of the top 4 teams dont end up in the top 4 then the managers job is at risk, that would not have happend 20 years ago.

with better tv rights and CL and overseas game bringing in so much moneys any owner will make the top 4 spots as a must.

i tell you now that if man u did not make the top 4 for 2 years there would be a new manager there.

Lakes, if we - or any other club - sacked their manager every time they had a bad spell due to an atrocious injury crisis in the league, then clubs would be changing managers two or three times a season. And before anyone starts that it's not down to just injuries, IMO, it's MOSTLY down to injuries. I don't give a f*ck what anyone says: if you take 8 players (we'd 10 at one point) out of any squad, anywhere in the world, then that team will suffer big time. Our team is not as sh*t as some over-reactionaries like to think. Wait until we get at least something that resembles our first team running for a few games before at least attempting to make out that everything is down to Mr Benitez. This is the worst injury list I've ever seen in my time as a Liverpool supporter of 20 or so years and it's reflecting on our season.

Another thing: Torres has been battling through a hernia problem. People moaned about why Rafa was taking him off against Fulham, well there's the answer. People would also moan why he wouldn't have started against Lyon seeing he got taken off. Rafa said he was taking a risk with him. So does Rafa play Torres and risk injuring him for about another 2 months, or does he play him for a bit, then sub him? (which happend). What would happen if Rafa played him and he got badly injured? Sure enough, people would b*tch about him playing him in the first place. The man cannot win! I can understand the press being w"nkers about such a thing, but our own fans? It's now looking very likely that Fernando will need an op, as will Gerrard

ER - it's an old cliche : fail to prepare, prepare to fail.
We haven't prepared over the last 5 years for a situation we are currently faced with. We don't have ready-made replacements to fill in when a player gets injured, and we don't have a replacement striker full-stop !
Enough about the injury crisis as well: we were missing max 2 first teamers last night - Gerrard and Johnson. In theory we had replacements (one or two playing out of position admittedly) to fill in for them.....but we all know that's complete tosh.
I reckon Torres WILL have an op....and whether Rafa likes it or not. I reckon he'll go see that surgeon at Barca again, because it's World Cup year now, and you can be damn sure he doesn't want to miss out on that.

[Sir Roger]

Look, argue the toss all you want. Fact is, it's a figure that raised a few eyebrows when it was brought to the attention of supporters not so long ago. No matter what age of football we're in, it's still an impressive statistic. Point being, that if we've a manager that is supposed to be taking us backwards, then I hope we can keep going backwards. What's that saying, two steps backwards, one step forward? Erm, now that is being ironic.

yes mate and the amount of win over the last few weeks if we keep going like that we will be going backwards into the Championship.

I know you dont like it but football has moved on so much in 20 years and managers today can not be stated up with old managers, theres too much money in the game now, if any of the top 4 teams dont end up in the top 4 then the managers job is at risk, that would not have happend 20 years ago.

with better tv rights and CL and overseas game bringing in so much moneys any owner will make the top 4 spots as a must.

i tell you now that if man u did not make the top 4 for 2 years there would be a new manager there.

Lakes, if we - or any other club - sacked their manager every time they had a bad spell due to an atrocious injury crisis in the league, then clubs would be changing managers two or three times a season. And before anyone starts that it's not down to just injuries, IMO, it's MOSTLY down to injuries. I don't give a f*ck what anyone says: if you take 8 players (we'd 10 at one point) out of any squad, anywhere in the world, then that team will suffer big time. Our team is not as sh*t as some over-reactionaries like to think. Wait until we get at least something that resembles our first team running for a few games before at least attempting to make out that everything is down to Mr Benitez. This is the worst injury list I've ever seen in my time as a Liverpool supporter of 20 or so years and it's reflecting on our season.

Another thing: Torres has been battling through a hernia problem. People moaned about why Rafa was taking him off against Fulham, well there's the answer. People would also moan why he wouldn't have started against Lyon seeing he got taken off. Rafa said he was taking a risk with him. So does Rafa play Torres and risk injuring him for about another 2 months, or does he play him for a bit, then sub him? (which happend). What would happen if Rafa played him and he got badly injured? Sure enough, people would b*tch about him playing him in the first place. The man cannot win! I can understand the press being w"nkers about such a thing, but our own fans? It's now looking very likely that Fernando will need an op, as will Gerrard

ER - it's an old cliche : fail to prepare, prepare to fail.
We haven't prepared over the last 5 years for a situation we are currently faced with. We don't have ready-made replacements to fill in when a player gets injured, and we don't have a replacement striker full-stop !
Enough about the injury crisis as well: we were missing max 2 first teamers last night - Gerrard and Johnson. In theory we had replacements (one or two playing out of position admittedly) to fill in for them.....but we all know that's complete tosh.
I reckon Torres WILL have an op....and whether Rafa likes it or not. I reckon he'll go see that surgeon at Barca again, because it's World Cup year now, and you can be damn sure he doesn't want to miss out on that.

...or Gerrard..