Liverpool FC Forum

[Stu the Red]

I don't know Stu. I know that you'll disagree but I don't think that the fact we've conceded so many goals is down to our defenders. Actually, I think that we're good in both quality and quantity when it comes to our CBs. We've been a bit unlucky with injuries in that department as well so that contributed a lot to us conceding so many goals. Our problem in defending, as I said in another thread, is tactical and because of the lack of support by our midfield. Also, we're an attacking side, so even if we sort out our problems we still won't concede less than 35-40 goals per season.

I don't quite see how you can possibly come to that conclusion to be quite honest. Its not even close and quite frankly is completely baffling. I can probably think of about 8 or 9 goals that have down to shape or as a result of a midfielder not tracking a man or being in the wrong position. The rest were from a collection of mistakes or individual errors ranging from shocking goalkeeping, ***** poor defending or ***** poor positioning from individuals.

The players at the back make far too many error's simple as that. We generally control possession or games so we shouldn't be conceding the amount of goals we do. Any defence with Skrtel, Mignolet and Johnson in will struggle. Skrtel you could probably get away with with superb quality around him, but if you put those three together you lack in far to many area's.

[tubby]

Yeah we've really struggled this year, so bad we've gone from 7th to 1st in the space of a year. Yes we need some new defenders but you don't rip our good players for the sake of it, not unless Henry lets us spend 20 odd mil per player to replace them. I think some people are getting excited with the prospect of winning the league and think we can all of a sudden bring in world class players in every position.

[red till i die!!]

dont get why you drive the boot into skrtel at every opportunity stu    he isnt without fault but has been our top defender all year and miles ahead of anything around him at the club.
did he nick a girlfriend on you or something   

[SouthCoastShankly]

dont get why you drive the boot into skrtel at every opportunity stu    he isnt without fault but has been our top defender all year and miles ahead of anything around him at the club.
did he nick a girlfriend on you or something   :D

Stu and a girlfriend??

I'd be amazed if there exists a woman/man (let's not get PC here) who would put up with him. It'll be f*cking unbearable.

[Stu the Red]

dont get why you drive the boot into skrtel at every opportunity stu    he isnt without fault but has been our top defender all year and miles ahead of anything around him at the club.
did he nick a girlfriend on you or something   :D

Its nothing personal, the lads a belter to be fair, I've met him a few times and he's a cracking fella... its just what he brings.

This season he's added a massive goal threat which he's previously lacked, however his defending, general play, positional sense and complete lack of communication and organisational skills have a negative effect defensively on the people around him.

He costs us far to many goals with attempted heroics and rash decisions, always has done, always will do.

Coming out with statements like "he's been our best defender this season" is pointless as the defence has been mid table standard at very best. Had we not controlled games as well as we have then I dread to think how many we would have conceded. He's looked lost any time he's come up against anyone decent. Granted, its not just him, but he's supposed to be the one who's most assured, he's the one who's been here five years and he's the one who's never been the player he's made out to be.

This is as bad a back five we've had in fifteen years yet people are still living in denial. The lad isn't as good as Carragher or Henchoz, neither of who were world beaters and we can and must do better. Sahko has shown promise so far in some games however has looked clumsy in others, but the reality is, I've watched the same mistakes from Skrtel for five years now and I'm quite frankly sick to death of it. Time for a change.

[Stu the Red]

dont get why you drive the boot into skrtel at every opportunity stu    he isnt without fault but has been our top defender all year and miles ahead of anything around him at the club.
did he nick a girlfriend on you or something   :D

Stu and a girlfriend??

I'd be amazed if there exists a woman/man (let's not get PC here) who would put up with him. It'll be f*cking unbearable.

Coming from a spineless bast*rd like yourself? 

[SouthCoastShankly]

dont get why you drive the boot into skrtel at every opportunity stu    he isnt without fault but has been our top defender all year and miles ahead of anything around him at the club.
did he nick a girlfriend on you or something   :D

Stu and a girlfriend??

I'd be amazed if there exists a woman/man (let's not get PC here) who would put up with him. It'll be f*cking unbearable.

Coming from a spineless bast*rd like yourself? 

[red till i die!!]

dont get why you drive the boot into skrtel at every opportunity stu    he isnt without fault but has been our top defender all year and miles ahead of anything around him at the club.
did he nick a girlfriend on you or something   :D

Its nothing personal, the lads a belter to be fair, I've met him a few times and he's a cracking fella... its just what he brings.

This season he's added a massive goal threat which he's previously lacked, however his defending, general play, positional sense and complete lack of communication and organisational skills have a negative effect defensively on the people around him.

He costs us far to many goals with attempted heroics and rash decisions, always has done, always will do.

Coming out with statements like "he's been our best defender this season" is pointless as the defence has been mid table standard at very best. Had we not controlled games as well as we have then I dread to think how many we would have conceded. He's looked lost any time he's come up against anyone decent. Granted, its not just him, but he's supposed to be the one who's most assured, he's the one who's been here five years and he's the one who's never been the player he's made out to be.

This is as bad a back five we've had in fifteen years yet people are still living in denial. The lad isn't as good as Carragher or Henchoz, neither of who were world beaters and we can and must do better. Sahko has shown promise so far in some games however has looked clumsy in others, but the reality is, I've watched the same mistakes from Skrtel for five years now and I'm quite frankly sick to death of it. Time for a change.

agree our defence has been mid table but its not all down to martin. others along with the system at times have equally contributed.
fwiw i understand some of the points you make but for me this year has been his best to date and he deserves a bit more credit for it than you give him.

[Stu the Red]

dont get why you drive the boot into skrtel at every opportunity stu    he isnt without fault but has been our top defender all year and miles ahead of anything around him at the club.
did he nick a girlfriend on you or something   :D

Its nothing personal, the lads a belter to be fair, I've met him a few times and he's a cracking fella... its just what he brings.

This season he's added a massive goal threat which he's previously lacked, however his defending, general play, positional sense and complete lack of communication and organisational skills have a negative effect defensively on the people around him.

He costs us far to many goals with attempted heroics and rash decisions, always has done, always will do.

Coming out with statements like "he's been our best defender this season" is pointless as the defence has been mid table standard at very best. Had we not controlled games as well as we have then I dread to think how many we would have conceded. He's looked lost any time he's come up against anyone decent. Granted, its not just him, but he's supposed to be the one who's most assured, he's the one who's been here five years and he's the one who's never been the player he's made out to be.

This is as bad a back five we've had in fifteen years yet people are still living in denial. The lad isn't as good as Carragher or Henchoz, neither of who were world beaters and we can and must do better. Sahko has shown promise so far in some games however has looked clumsy in others, but the reality is, I've watched the same mistakes from Skrtel for five years now and I'm quite frankly sick to death of it. Time for a change.

agree our defence has been mid table but its not all down to martin. others along with the system at times have equally contributed.
fwiw i understand some of the points you make but for me this year has been his best to date and he deserves a bit more credit for it than you give him.

I disagree on the system being at fault 90%. The system is fine, we need to tweet it when the opposition has the ball in wide area's in terms of what we instruct our full backs to do and how they stop crosses, however, I believe the system to be near faultless at present and think its the personal rather than the tactical play.

Mignolet has heavily contributed, as has Johnson, Cissokho and on occasions Flannagan's inexperience.

Agger and Sahko also, but on a slightly lesser note.

The point is, when you have a chain of three error's or four error's that result in a goal against, Skrtel usually always makes the worst error or the second worst error when conceding a goal. He's usually the one you look at and go, should have done better there. But he never does do better. Its always the same error's. Always has been. The type of error's he makes are often very basic and he seems not to grasp the team work side of the game.

Skrtel, Johnson and Mignolet are a massive part of why this defence is so bad. The only difference is Skrtel gives us a threat at the other end now in comparison to past seasons.

[red till i die!!]

I disagree on the system being at fault 90%. The system is fine, we need to tweet it when the opposition has the ball in wide area's in terms of what we instruct our full backs to do and how they stop crosses, however, I believe the system to be near faultless at present and think its the personal rather than the tactical play.

yes it does need tweaking. the fullbacks rarely block anything from either side and when they get caught out maurading up the field it exposes the system and the CB's. ive seen skrtel having to make challenges on the half way line in front of the dug out and at the corner flag, any CB will have their work cut out trying to make up the ground they lose. tactics are one thing but being able to effectively deploy them is another.
two new fullbacks in the summer that have more pace and can hold on to the ball a little better would be a good start.

[damjan193]

I don't know Stu. I know that you'll disagree but I don't think that the fact we've conceded so many goals is down to our defenders. Actually, I think that we're good in both quality and quantity when it comes to our CBs. We've been a bit unlucky with injuries in that department as well so that contributed a lot to us conceding so many goals. Our problem in defending, as I said in another thread, is tactical and because of the lack of support by our midfield. Also, we're an attacking side, so even if we sort out our problems we still won't concede less than 35-40 goals per season.

I don't quite see how you can possibly come to that conclusion to be quite honest. Its not even close and quite frankly is completely baffling. I can probably think of about 8 or 9 goals that have down to shape or as a result of a midfielder not tracking a man or being in the wrong position. The rest were from a collection of mistakes or individual errors ranging from shocking goalkeeping, ***** poor defending or ***** poor positioning from individuals.

The players at the back make far too many error's simple as that. We generally control possession or games so we shouldn't be conceding the amount of goals we do. Any defence with Skrtel, Mignolet and Johnson in will struggle. Skrtel you could probably get away with with superb quality around him, but if you put those three together you lack in far to many area's.

Stu, you're missing the point . It's not about the midfield flailing to track players, it's about allowing the opposition to do what ever they want. How many times have we seen our midfield just sit back and wait for the opposition to come to them? Norwich, City (second half), Swansea, Cardiff are just a few recent examples. If you allow the opposition to do this to you then the defense is bound to make a mistake at some point. We're good at defending when we're pressing high and doubling up, but you can't play with that tempo for 90 minutes through out the whole season. Sometimes you need to deal with the opposition pressing you, and our midfield is not particularly good at it. They offer no protection to the back 4 at all when we're being pressed.

Take Chelsea for an example from the other day. Their midfield always had one player containing the Atletico player who has the ball while the others sat back to not allow any space through the middle. They also forced Atletico on the wings the whole time, forcing them to cross the ball in the box where Chelsea are the strongest. Naturally, Atletico barely had half a chance. Not saying that we should do the same thing but we need to have at least some kind of an idea of what to do when we're under pressure. If Steve Clark is available I'd have him back as an assistant to help us out with this. He was fantastic at this when he was here.

[Stu the Red]

I don't know Stu. I know that you'll disagree but I don't think that the fact we've conceded so many goals is down to our defenders. Actually, I think that we're good in both quality and quantity when it comes to our CBs. We've been a bit unlucky with injuries in that department as well so that contributed a lot to us conceding so many goals. Our problem in defending, as I said in another thread, is tactical and because of the lack of support by our midfield. Also, we're an attacking side, so even if we sort out our problems we still won't concede less than 35-40 goals per season.

I don't quite see how you can possibly come to that conclusion to be quite honest. Its not even close and quite frankly is completely baffling. I can probably think of about 8 or 9 goals that have down to shape or as a result of a midfielder not tracking a man or being in the wrong position. The rest were from a collection of mistakes or individual errors ranging from shocking goalkeeping, ***** poor defending or ***** poor positioning from individuals.

The players at the back make far too many error's simple as that. We generally control possession or games so we shouldn't be conceding the amount of goals we do. Any defence with Skrtel, Mignolet and Johnson in will struggle. Skrtel you could probably get away with with superb quality around him, but if you put those three together you lack in far to many area's.

Stu, you're missing the point . It's not about the midfield flailing to track players, it's about allowing the opposition to do what ever they want. How many times have we seen our midfield just sit back and wait for the opposition to come to them? Norwich, City (second half), Swansea, Cardiff are just a few recent examples. If you allow the opposition to do this to you then the defense is bound to make a mistake at some point. We're good at defending when we're pressing high and doubling up, but you can't play with that tempo for 90 minutes through out the whole season. Sometimes you need to deal with the opposition pressing you, and our midfield is not particularly good at it. They offer no protection to the back 4 at all when we're being pressed.

Take Chelsea for an example from the other day. Their midfield always had one player containing the Atletico player who has the ball while the others sat back to not allow any space through the middle. They also forced Atletico on the wings the whole time, forcing them to cross the ball in the box where Chelsea are the strongest. Naturally, Atletico barely had half a chance. Not saying that we should do the same thing but we need to have at least some kind of an idea of what to do when we're under pressure. If Steve Clark is available I'd have him back as an assistant to help us out with this. He was fantastic at this when he was here.

The midfield doesn't offer great protection to the defence, of that I agree. However, that doesn't account for a goalkeeper coming off his line at the wrong times and flapping at crosses, being feeble at times when he should be strong, a lack of communication or a player trying to do the wrong things and taking team mates out of the game with amateurish decision making and attempts at trying to be a hero. Like I've said, individual errors are the cause of most of our goals and to be quite honest, some of the errors made by Skrtel, Mignolet and Johnson this season have at times been embarrassingly bad.

If we concede goals due to shape I have no problem with that, no team is perfect. However, when its down to amateurish mistakes and failing at the basics then I do have a massive problem with it. Jamie Carragher was a distinctly average player, however he built his career on being excellent at the basics, communication with his partner (he learnt a lot of Sami) and by applying himself superbly. Skrtel is probably technically a far better player than Carragher was, however Carragher knew to fill gaps, learnt when and what to do in situation and learnt his position. Things the Slovak has failed with time and time again.

Man City away being a prime example, he single handedly cost us that game and its not the first time in his career. It is however the first time in his career he's made up for a couple of his howlers with important and quality goals.

One half decent season in five years does not make a player good enough.

[kazza]

Firstly JC once scored two own goals in a match against the scum. He has has his fair share of howlers.

Secondly the way I remember the City match, he was completely manhandled by kompany for the first goal who is much bigger than him and the goalie flapped at a long range no hope shot in injury time of the first half that went in. He could not possibly have " single handedly cost us the game" and let's not forget the ref ruling out a legitimate goal.

My feeling is he will be here for a while so you may want to get used to it.

[Stu the Red]

You're really suggesting Carra made as many mistakes as skrtel? Behave yourself lad. Ridiculous statement.

And you clearly dont remember the city game very well. It was skertel trying to wrestle and for the first it was his error and stupidity that allowed the situation to develop in the first place.

[RedSi35]

The priorities as I see them are:

6. Find Gerrard's replacement and find him soon so they have time to adjust. He's not going to play forever.

That one statement fills me with immense sadness