Liverpool FC Forum

[maguskwt]

I think I would keep the banners hidden for 'if and when' SOS become involved, if they're quiet then there is no cause for consternation just yet ! In truth they seem to be preoccupied with petitioning for a safe standing section at Anfield after Celtic incorporated one into their stadium .

You guys need to know that without the action and hard work of the Spirit of Shankly, Tom (Werner) and I would not have bought the Club".
John Henry.

I'm not saying our owners are perfect far from it,  but we're not £536 million in debt like those along the East Lancs whose latest figures show a 25% increase in debt in the last 12 months, the highest debt in European football and nearly £200 million more than Benfica who are second on that list.

United's revenue is approx 521 million a year but this year it was £513 million due to the value of the falling pound, ok its significantly less high risk than some clubs, but its more than a touch disconcerting for those die hard United fans who see the Glazers slowly bleeding the club dry in the same manner we watched Hicks and Gillette. 

Anfield has been expanded and is due for further renovation rather than throwing the fans into a soulless stadium such as West Ham fans found themselves in and FSG have secured one of the best managers and certainly the most passionate in Europe to a long contract, the players that the manager wants will arrive 'eventually ' and yet we still hanker after a sheik or an Oligarch even if it means those owners will bring in the players 'they want' 

I mean for me personally placating the fans by putting £100 million pound players on the pitch and in the squad whilst driving up an astronomical debt is not how I want to see my club being run, nor do I want to be run by a billionaire who chops and changes managers on a whim.

It doesn't have to be one extreme or other mate. I believe there is a nice middle ground that clubs like Spurs are pursuing. And there is no reason why we can't do better than Spurs if we pursue that middle ground given our status in the english and world football...

[ycsatbjywtbiastkamb]

I don't think debt is really an issue with United, they are so big an oligarch or oil baron would willingly stump up a couple of billion to buy them. They were just lucky that their glory years coincided with the prem going global.

[Pig Catcher]

All I would say is the stand is not a gift FSG loaned us the money and we are paying it back.

They have benefited greatly from our poor situation but havent put one cent of their own cash in, despite sitting on an incredible return on their investment they have no ambition to reinvest any of that money to improve the team.

Its not all bad, they brought in Klopp and do respond when fans want a manager out or in, for sake of argument they did put the stand up and I guess didn't have too, its whether in your heart you believe its enough.

I want Liverpool back on top and FSG havent shown they have enough about them to do that.

FSG loaned the club 69m and then turned it into equity, which pretty much means they gave the club the money.

[devaney]

Mags I honestly cannot understand why you keep mentioning Spurs as an example of "middle ground" success. If I was to believe everything that I read, and I certainly don't, it could be suggested that they have come out on top in the transfer market compared with ourselves. However just where has that got them? Their second string when they played at Anfield in the EFL Cup looked very average and their first team looked no better when they were comprehensively beaten at Anfield only recently. Ok I know that we haven't won a top competition (sorry Kenny) since 2005 but just for the record this is Spurs roll of honour:

Major honours
Domestic
League

First Division/Premier League:[63][64][65]
Winners (2): 1950–51, 1960–61
Second Division/Championship:[64]
Winners (2): 1919–20, 1949–50
Cup

FA Cup:[66][67]
Winners (8): 1900–01, 1920–21, 1960–61, 1961–62, 1966–67, 1980–81, 1981–82, 1990–91
League Cup:[68]
Winners (4): 1970–71, 1972–73, 1998–99, 2007–08
FA Charity Shield/FA Community Shield:[69]
Winners (7): 1921, 1951, 1961, 1962, 1967*, 1981*, 1991* (*shared)
European
UEFA Cup Winners' Cup:[70]
Winners (1): 1962–63
UEFA Cup/UEFA Europa League:[71]
Winners (2): 1971–72, 1983–84

Mate they haven't won anything since 2008 (league cup) and prior that was 1991 when they won the FA Cup.


I know exactly what you are trying to say and yes they have improved and yes they have some very good players but are they really title or major trophy contenders. Are they really in much better shape than ourselves? Wether we like it or not harping on about our somewhat dated illustrious history simply won't be enough for a lot of players. We are where we are and we have to be realistic. This was never going to be an easy fix. We have made so many scouting errors for far too many years and that to me is the area that needs drastically  overhauling. Just look at some of the players that Southampton and Leicester have bought in recent years for peanuts. They are out there, we just have to be a lot smarter.

[maguskwt]

Mags I honestly cannot understand why you keep mentioning Spurs as an example of "middle ground" success. If I was to believe everything that I read, and I certainly don't, it could be suggested that they have come out on top in the transfer market compared with ourselves. However just where has that got them? Their second string when they played at Anfield in the EFL Cup looked very average and their first team looked no better when they were comprehensively beaten at Anfield only recently. Ok I know that we haven't won a top competition (sorry Kenny) since 2005 but just for the record this is Spurs roll of honour:

Major honours
Domestic
League

First Division/Premier League:[63][64][65]
Winners (2): 1950–51, 1960–61
Second Division/Championship:[64]
Winners (2): 1919–20, 1949–50
Cup

FA Cup:[66][67]
Winners (8): 1900–01, 1920–21, 1960–61, 1961–62, 1966–67, 1980–81, 1981–82, 1990–91
League Cup:[68]
Winners (4): 1970–71, 1972–73, 1998–99, 2007–08
FA Charity Shield/FA Community Shield:[69]
Winners (7): 1921, 1951, 1961, 1962, 1967*, 1981*, 1991* (*shared)
European
UEFA Cup Winners' Cup:[70]
Winners (1): 1962–63
UEFA Cup/UEFA Europa League:[71]
Winners (2): 1971–72, 1983–84

Mate they haven't won anything since 2008 (league cup) and prior that was 1991 when they won the FA Cup.


I know exactly what you are trying to say and yes they have improved and yes they have some very good players but are they really title or major trophy contenders. Are they really in much better shape than ourselves? Wether we like it or not harping on about our somewhat dated illustrious history simply won't be enough for a lot of players. We are where we are and we have to be realistic. This was never going to be an easy fix. We have made so many scouting errors for far too many years and that to me is the area that needs drastically  overhauling. Just look at some of the players that Southampton and Leicester have bought in recent years for peanuts. They are out there, we just have to be a lot smarter.

And that's exactly what I'm saying. I don't care about the historical success. I'm talking about today's situtation. When I'm comparing us with Spurs it's purely on player procurement performance basis. They have procured better players than us in recent times in general and even beaten us to some of the players we are competing for. And it's not JUST a case of scouting errors or scouting performance. It's the whole restrictive policy set by FSG. We should be ashamed of ourselves really, the way we are acting and performing in the transfer market. During Rafa's days could anyone say that our team is worse than Spurs'? No way. We acted like we were the top 4 team. Now we have fallen way down the ladder. Just to highlight the quality of the squad, in the whole squad, I only consider the following players as top 4 material:

1. Clyne
2. Coutinho
3. Sturridge
4. Mane
5. Sakho
6. Lallana (borderline)

Out of that 6 the manager has alienated 2 rightly or wrongly. So now out of the WHOLE squad, we have 4 players that are top 4 material IMHO! and one of them is borderline so... And if I were the manager, I would be looking to replace ALL of the rest with better players.

And out of those 6, only 3 could be considered world class or international class who are Coutinho, Sturridge and Sakho. And out of that 3, the manager has alienated 2. So yeah, we have ONE world class player...

[devaney]

I have previously listed an utter collection of dross that has been bought since FSG tookover the club. I don't believe that FSG's transfer policy is simply the reason for throwing nearly £100m down the drain on Benteke, Carroll and Markovic. They were three awful purchases. Even Kenny rubber stamped Carroll. FSG have been given some awful advice for years. Scouting has been useless and unimaginative. Klopp understandably is desperately trying not to make the same stupid mistakes. IMHO FSG's biggest mistake has been recognising the problem and doing something about it. Look at Moreno for example , who is average at best, we chased after him for the entire summer trying to do a deal and just look at what we ended up with !! If he isn't a scouting mistake then I don't know who is? And do we really know enough about what has gone on behind closed doors at the negotiating table? We don't and frankly I think most of what comes out of the media is garbage.

[ycsatbjywtbiastkamb]

I think you're being a bit harsh calling the likes of Carroll, Benteke and Markovic dross, yes they were overpriced but they weren't bad players.

[devaney]

I stand corrected Yakka. They were overpriced dross    Sorry mate they gave us virtually nothing and for nearly £100m I expect a lot more. Replacing the Torres of old with Carroll was like replacing a Ferrari with a Tractor !!

[maguskwt]

I have previously listed an utter collection of dross that has been bought since FSG tookover the club. I don't believe that FSG's transfer policy is simply the reason for throwing nearly £100m down the drain on Benteke, Carroll and Markovic. They were three awful purchases. Even Kenny rubber stamped Carroll. FSG have been given some awful advice for years. Scouting has been useless and unimaginative. Klopp understandably is desperately trying not to make the same stupid mistakes. IMHO FSG's biggest mistake has been recognising the problem and doing something about it. Look at Moreno for example , who is average at best, we chased after him for the entire summer trying to do a deal and just look at what we ended up with !! If he isn't a scouting mistake then I don't know who is? And do we really know enough about what has gone on behind closed doors at the negotiating table? We don't and frankly I think most of what comes out of the media is garbage.

Of course we don't EXACTLY know. But there has been enough noises here and there, especially from BR, that the transfer committee was not working well. We have had 3 managers under FSG and the common denominator is FSG and the system they have put up. I know Klopp will have more control and say about players coming in. And at least he knows what kind of players he wants. But the effects of the dismal performance in the transfer market is still being fully felt. And also Klopp has started to say "oh... it's difficult to get players because we're not in the champions league"... what non-sense... it's difficult to get players because of FSG's strict criteria on players...

[redshade]

The only thing we can do is analyse things and try to make a judgement from outside the box. Like many said we don't really know what happens behind closed door.

From looking at how transfers have gone under FSG/managers etc it does seem to look like we are a moneyball enterprise for our american owners.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if we qualify for Champs league and FSG enjoy pocketing more bucks and we end up not spending as much as we need to. It would be typical and expected.

[parchpea]

This summer will reveal a lot about FSG particularly if we qualify for the Champions League.

They are now being judged more closely and if they continue to be cheap will be hit hard publicly, I feel the days of them being able to dupe Liverpool fans are over, familiarity breeds contempt.

News about the training ground revamp is good and typically them in terms of timing, but youth development is not an answer to Liverpools problems and never will be, capping youth wages will drive the best talent away just like it does more senior professionals.

Liverpool needs money top to bottom, longer they go without that investment the harder it will be, I doubt FSG will provide it so for me we look for people that will.

[ycsatbjywtbiastkamb]

Im not sure I agree with this proposed move from Melwood to Kirkby, Kirkby's not even in Liverpool for a start.

[7_Kewell]

Im not sure I agree with this proposed move from Melwood to Kirkby, Kirkby's not even in Liverpool for a start.

I think it's a good move. Having the kids and first team squad in the same place should benefit everyone. Especially with Gerrard working there 

[maguskwt]

What I would like to know is how selling melwood and moving to Kirkby will benefit Liverpool FC's development. Will selling Melwood fetch a higher sum than the cost of expansion at Kirkby? If so, how will the monies be used to benefit LFC? Will the stadium be expanded once again? or will it go into squad development?

[ycsatbjywtbiastkamb]

What I would like to know is how selling melwood and moving to Kirkby will benefit Liverpool FC's development. Will selling Melwood fetch a higher sum than the cost of expansion at Kirkby? If so, how will the monies be used to benefit LFC? Will the stadium be expanded once again? or will it go into squad development?

Oh the land Melwood is on is probably worth a fortune, West Derby (the district where Melwood is situated) is probably the most desirable part of the city to live in the north end. When Everton had financial trouble they sold their West Derby based training facility Bellefield and made a good few bob out of it.
Kirkby is a place that has no historic connection to the club whatsoever, as I said it doesn't even lie within the boundaries of the city of Liverpool, its in Knowsley. The land there will be a lot, lot cheaper than West Derby that's for sure. Parts of Kirkby are pretty fvcking rough too, I'm not sure the players will appreciate driving around there in their fancy cars.
Melwood is where Bill Shankly held court, its where the likes of Billy Liddell, Ron Yeats, Roger Hunt, Ian St John, Kevin Keegan, John Toshack, Emlyn Hughes, Kenny Dalglish, Graeme Souness, Alan Hansen, John Barnes, Peter Beardsley etc etc all went to work on a day to day basis.
Why can't people leave things alone? What's wrong with a bit of tradition? I can guarantee you the reason why we haven't won the league in the last 27 years has nothing to do with our training ground, its been down to bad decisions not bad facilities.