Liverpool FC Forum

[LFC2007]

I've not heard anyone on this forum express their happiness at fighting for fourth.

[god_bless_john_houlding]

They may not blantantly admit it, but they're happy because it qualifies us for the champions league next season. That's all people are interested in nowadays, well I'm not. I want the league, and if the only way we're going to get it is by not playing in Europe next season, then I'd take it.

[redtrader74]

I will paste this here, as the other thread is about gen chat now.

I must have missed the posts where happiness at being fourth has been expressed, but it has to be our bare minimum target if we are out of contention, and i will be hoping we get there, yes, not to rejoice it as success, but for the oppurtunities it will offer.

Personally i don't think we have enough determined, selfish, winning characters in our side, Carragher is the only one who seems to epitomise anyone from our teams of the 70's and 80's, and this season he seems to be waning.

Time served is important, for example Wenger and Fergie are managers allowed a free hand to do as they please at their clubs, and are consulted and involved in all decisions, they have better connections in the football system even tenuous relationships with referees can help with a decision here and there. They are allowed time to build without pressure. This IMO is invaluable in creating confidence in managers, we all talk about players confidence, but what about the manager?

The money issue is about how far we have fallen behind over the last 5-6 years, our rivals were buying £20-30m talent while we bought one player here and there over £10m. It has meant they have created better squads, Fact.

Owners backing is also pivotal, how can a manager crack the whip, be tough with slacking players if his own position has been speculated upon on a daily basis? Players, like it or not, will say to themsleves, 'You won't fcking be here next year anyway', and some will certainly have been wondering about their own futures during this time, hardly conducive to top class performances on the pitch. It only takes a small change in performance to result in draws or losses. Also what chance of signing players when they will be thinking 'Forget LFC and Rafa, no point signing for them, the manager might be gone soon'. Also who on earth would come as a number 2 whilst all the speculation was rife? How could Rafa recriut in good faith?

I agree GBJH i would love a consistent assault on the the league, and thought we might this season, but isn't it feasible that just as things were looking OK the rug was pulled by our esteemed owners?

[god_bless_john_houlding]

I will paste this here, as the other thread is about gen chat now.

I must have missed the posts where happiness at being fourth has been expressed, but it has to be our bare minimum target if we are out of contention, and i will be hoping we get there, yes, not to rejoice it as success, but for the oppurtunities it will offer.

Personally i don't think we have enough determined, selfish, winning characters in our side, Carragher is the only one who seems to epitomise anyone from our teams of the 70's and 80's, and this season he seems to be waning.

Time served is important, for example Wenger and Fergie are managers allowed a free hand to do as they please at their clubs, and are consulted and involved in all decisions, they have better connections in the football system even tenuous relationships with referees can help with a decision here and there. They are allowed time to build without pressure. This IMO is invaluable in creating confidence in managers, we all talk about players confidence, but what about the manager?

The money issue is about how far we have fallen behind over the last 5-6 years, our rivals were buying £20-30m talent while we bought one player here and there over £10m. It has meant they have created better squads, Fact.

Owners backing is also pivotal, how can a manager crack the whip, be tough with slacking players if his own position has been speculated upon on a daily basis? Players, like it or not, will say to themsleves, 'You won't fcking be here next year anyway', and some will certainly have been wondering about their own futures during this time, hardly conducive to top class performances on the pitch. It only takes a small change in performance to result in draws or losses. Also what chance of signing players when they will be thinking 'Forget LFC and Rafa, no point signing for them, the manager might be gone soon'. Also who on earth would come as a number 2 whilst all the speculation was rife? How could Rafa recriut in good faith?

I agree GBJH i would love a consistent assault on the the league, and thought we might this season, but isn't it feasible that just as things were looking OK the rug was pulled by our esteemed owners?

I've replied to this in the other one mate, if you wish to read it, I suggest you go to the Gerrard one in the general chat.

[redtrader74]

Heres a reply to yours from Gen chat JBJH

Maybe i didn't differentiate between contending and winning, the points i raised were for why we weren't realistically going to win the title this year, we could still have challenged.  I thought after the first 8-10 games we would be at least challenging for the title this year, as it is we are not, and logically some of why not has to be down the the off pitch cr@p, No?

Also the time served point, firstly i do not see it as a sole reason, but one of many factors that are required in a realistic situation to do well. Secondly IMO after a certain length of time you'll get most of the benefits of having your feet under the table, for example IMO Fergie doesn't have a huge advantage over Wenger in this case, as Wenger also has 11 years under his belt. The Moyes argument, forget it GBJH, he is not in the same league, I am comparing managers of similar excellence, and yes the bitters are ahead of us right now, but the season is not over.

The money factor can also be reduced over time, maybe why Rafa has gambled on so many youngsters, in the hope that getting them young now, and therefore affordable for us, will mean that in 2 years time we will have players ready for the prem. and also well schooled in his methods. These are not excuses, i am merely trying to fathom why a top class manager (note i did not say genius), hasn't so far managed to mount a serious assault on the League, others will stupidly say 'he is sh!t' or 'he is a fool' or 'clueless and stubborn', but i'd rather show the man some respect, the respect his CV and position as LFC manager deserve. If reasons do arise, then maybe we can take them as that, reasons, and not casually address them as excuses, excuses.

[god_bless_john_houlding]

Heres a reply to yours from Gen chat JBJH

Maybe i didn't differentiate between contending and winning, the points i raised were for why we weren't realistically going to win the title this year, we could still have challenged.  I thought after the first 8-10 games we would be at least challenging for the title this year, as it is we are not, and logically some of why not has to be down the the off pitch cr@p, No?

Also the time served point, firstly i do not see it as a sole reason, but one of many factors that are required in a realistic situation to do well. Secondly IMO after a certain length of time you'll get most of the benefits of having your feet under the table, for example IMO Fergie doesn't have a huge advantage over Wenger in this case, as Wenger also has 11 years under his belt. The Moyes argument, forget it GBJH, he is not in the same league, I am comparing managers of similar excellence, and yes they are ahead of us right now, but the season is not over.

From my reply in the general chat you'd see I said "the owners will take the blame, I appriciate that, I understand that, and to some extent I believe that" This shows that I feel it's had SOME influence on the season as a whole. Not as much as others would like you to believe but I think it's had some affect on the players and on Benitez.

Next again, if we were GOING to challenge, how can people still use the excuse of time and money. They weren't affecting us at the start if we were going to challenge where they? But because we've failed to mount that challenge, people automatically use them as excuses. That's what doesn't make sense to me.

Also I wasn't comparing Benitez to Moyes, but if people are going to argue that we can't compete because of the amount of time Benitez has been in the job compared to the other top sides, then that arguement has to hold up to other managers, and it obviously doesn't. The same with the money. There the reasons why I don't agree with these excuses, because they don't hold up.

Lastly, you think Benitez hasn't got his feet under the table? Benitez could of been comfortablly set-up for a job for life if he so wished. But he tested the water by telling the yanks they didn't understand the market over here. He underminded them, and because they bit back, he threw his toys out of his pram, that's where the discontent for one another came about. So if you want (not that many will) you could easily lay the blame of what's happened behind the scenes on Benitez for getting on the wick of the owners in the first place. After all I wouldn't go and fork out 30-40 million for someone who just told me I didn't know how to do my job, would you?

[redtrader74]

Lets at least be correct with the timescales, Rafas message to the Yanks was after they had already been sounding out Klinsmann, (Hicks confirmed when he spoke to him) so without having said a thing they were already looking for a replacement, and by all accounts had a contract for him. He undermined them? I think you'll find its the other way round.

Time and Money, even at the start of the season meant we were at a disadvantage, if you looked at the teams at the start of the season objectively, without your Liverpool hat on, the conclusion would have to be that we were certainly man for man behind Chelsea and ManU. As i said we could have challenged, but realistically were going to come up short when it came to winning it, there is a difference.

The argument of comparing time with Moyes will never hold up IMO, he is not in the same League as Wenger or Fergie, Rafa IMO is, therefore i compare the three of them, not Moyes, as he has many deficiences when compared to Rafa.

BTW IIRC all through the season, even when we were unbeaten, there has been discussion about our lack of funds over the years, and the time that Fergie etc. has been at the club. The 'excuse' has always been about.....

[god_bless_john_houlding]

Benitez undermined the yanks, whatever came first. He still did it, he then threw his toys out of his pram because they bit him back. He then continued to undermine them with the interview where the only answer was "I'm paid to coach and manage my players, and I'm concentrating on coaching and managing my players" he also disrespected the fans there. They've undermined him just as much, I'm not for one minute saying they're blameless but neither is Benitez which people seem to think. He's whinged and sulked for a long time now. Now that the window has shut, and he knows no more money is coming his way, he's "patched it up with them" very convinent.

As for United and Chelsea, man for man better than us, that isn't true IMO. We've got as good a spine as anyone in the world. 7 players who are good enough and just as good as anything that can be thrown up in this league. Our wide players (left side mainly) is where we struggle. Finnan/Pennant down the right are good enough to be in a top side. Arbeloa/Babel on the left for me is still good enough to perform high quality. Going back to the spine I wouldn't swap anyone in the world for those 7. Even Crouch, he may not be the greatest but he's good enough.

The excuses of lack of funds and time still don't hold up. For me anyway, so it's a waste of your time telling me why they can be used an excuse, and it's a waste of my time explaining why I don't see them as valid reasons for us failing. We're never going to agree on those two reasons, so lets leave it there with money and time eh?

[redtrader74]

Fair enough, btw i do not say they are definitive reasons as to our poor league form, just factors which would without doubt affect our chances of success, whether we agree to the extent is irrelevant, but surely you can see there would be some effect?

You can blame Rafa all you like in regard to his relationship with G&H, i for one will side with him, rather than with two people who have been proven to be liars, but regardless of where the fault lies, my initial point was that the spat would be detrimental to our performances.

[god_bless_john_houlding]

I'll admit, money and time MAY play some part, not as big as people like to make out, as I've shown in the past. Also the owners and Benitez' problems, there's faults on both sides. I think they're best trying to sweep it under the carpet and starting from scratch. If not then one party has to go, I'd prefer it to be the yanks to Benitez, but if Benitez goes I won't be heartbroken either.

[Ciggy]

Well certainly not me, people are happy coming fourth

I dont know one person that is happy finishing 4th not one.
But its better than finishing fifth isnt it?

We need the CL money to buy new players in the summer and to attract new players that want to play in the CL.

Plus dirty big fat loans need to be payed without the CL we are fucked basicly.

[Owzat]

Souness inherited a good side and wrecked it so i'd blame him

Every manager since Dalglish has had poor transfer acumen, I won't blame tragedies like some are ready and willing to and I don't believe this cycles bullshine. Our managers have had the money, believe it or not until the mancs had started winning regularly we spent as much as they did and had cr ap players to show for it. Blackburn allegedly bought the league, our team and the mancs' cost more that season.

Everyone can list a team or two teams of bad players under each manager since Dalglish, had he stayed longer then maybe we'd still be the top dogs, but I don't believe in 'what if..........'s. Every manager has cleared out his predecessor, Evans, Houllier and Rafa looked all to be heading in the right direction, but for me the latter two in particular got carried away with themselves, maybe egos too big for the club, and went too far.

One serious risk with keeping Rafa on some kind of belief he needs two, three, four, five or even twenty more years is I fear more strongly than anything else that he might equally undo the good things as fix the bad things - he might well replace good players with bad players. One way of judging a good manager is that they will replace one player with a better one, Rafa hasn't always done that and he's spent a lot of money in the process

[Boocity]

A lot of people are blaming Souness and although I believe he was not the right manager for us, in his defence he did inherit an aging squad and also if you remember that rediculous UEFA rule that meant that even Scottish, Irish and Welsh players were classed as foreign and that was not changed until the Bosman ruling, in the meantime we had already started the process of getting in mediocre english players.

On another point I agree with Saint, Parry dithers too much, how often do you hear that he is on holiday and nothing will happen until he returns, that guy goes on holiday at the most critical times, when the transfer window is open.

[Judge]

regardless of results lately, rafa has conducted himself in post match interviews with dignity

there must be more to this than the simple: its rafas fault, or the players etc. since the yanks have turned up, we are playing worse.

is that the answer, its the yanks fault, i dunno

but a team doesnt just get bad overnight. perhaps others have the measure of us, and its time for all to stand up and be counted

i expect the lads at LFC are shell shocked and are finding it hard to come to terms with. they need to get to grips with it and soon

[JBG]

I know this won't make me popular but David Moores has to shoulder much of the blame.

I know he is a passionate supporter and I know that he has always backed his managers as best he could. On that ground he cannot be faulted.

However, as the former majority shareholder and chairman the buck ultimately stopped with him and his managerial appointments, general running of the club and pitiful commercial policies have as much to do with our slide as any other reason.