Liverpool FC Forum

[redsince2001]

1) yes

2) yes for playing style being offensive .
    No for Rafa being too defensive .... previously he hardly had the players   to attack so much ... he simply chose a style of play that he thought gave us the best chance of winning with the players at his disposal at the time.... new players now and new offensive tactics from Rafa

[hello_red]

cheers st.mick

should be an interesting season though, i honestly believe that Rafas style has never been defensive merely pressing. The right tools for the job are what is needed when you want to do anything to a high standard and I feel Rafa has the tools now, maybe not all of them but 90% of them atleast to do a very good job.

[Bad Bob]

While I would say that Rafa has definitely developed a "build from the back" strategy in his time at Liverpool, I wouldn't call him overly defensive in his tactics.

By 'build from the back' I mean that he focused first on solidifying our defense and central midfield, both in terms of the personnel (brought in through transfers or, like Carra, groomed for a new role) and in terms of the tactics (zonal marking, high defensive line, a 'sweeper-keeper' to mop up behind, etc.).  We've been solid at the back since the 2005-2006 season, TBH, and continue to benefit from that system in place.

In terms of going forward, I would suggest that this is the first year that Rafa has had the personnel to cultivate some truly inventive attacking play.  In past seasons we've had to contend with some crucial injuries to our creative players (Kewell and Garcia esp.), while also shopping on the cheap during transfer windows.  As you know, the price tag for truly class wide players and strikers is quite steep and we simply couldn't compete in the top end of the market.  We've had to go for bargain players and wait and see how they adapt.  Some, like Garcia, came good straight away.  Others, like Crouch, Pennant, Fowler, Kuyt [IMHO]) took awhile and still others haven't done the business (Morientes, Bellamy, Gonzales, Nunez).  This year, for the first time, we've had the money to buy at the top end of the attacking market and I think we can all see the dividends that has brought.  Imagine how much more attacking we'll look when Rafa starts adding another player or two to the attacking corps each transfer window? 

[maguskwt]

1) Are you happy with the style of football watching?

2) Do you consider the mentality this year is more offensive than other years? Do you consider Rafa defensive?

1) yes

2) I think the mentality is more offensive but I don't think rafa was or is defensive.

I've mentioned in some of my posts that I thought rafa is not defensive or negative at all... you can see how well we pressed and attacked in certain games even during his first season...

what I do think is that a combination of not having the right players for his systme as well as not knowing too well the style of english football and how the english clubs play, has caused us to stutter in the league previously...

[stmichael]

This whole "Rafa is defensive" myth has partly been built up by the media, mainly because in comparison to teams such as United and Arsenal, our style of play is a lot more balanced imo. I think Arsenal and United have weaknesses in certain areas for example but nobody hardly ever mentions it because they're gun ho every game and play "beautiful football"

Man Utd under Ferguson have nearly always had players who could pour forward in attack when up against it and sometimes turn a game around. Conversely, they have often struggled to hold a lead in Europe and quite often been played off the park by top class opposition. Ferguson is weak in defensive organisation. It took Ferguson's best-ever team to win him the European Cup. We did it with arguably our weakest squad for ten years.


I would back Rafa more than any other manager to take a lead into a second leg and come out of it with a victory over two legs, he can organise the team to grind out a result and stifle the opposition. However, in the past, if we were 2 goals down we would only be able to look for Gerrard or Garcia for inspiration. We didn't have the likes of Kaka/Rooney/Ronaldo to create something out of nothing ( before somebody throws up Istanbul, that was a one-off and unlikely to ever be repeated).

To win the league we needed to sign the creative players who could give us that ability to turn draws into victories and defeats into draws and I believe they've arrived. A combination of Rafa's organisation and Ferguson's flair would be a virtually unbeatable combination.

[Scottbot]

Do you consider Rafa defensive?

Do you consider the mentality this year is more offensive than other years?

I'm not sure the idea of Rafa being a defensive coach is a myth as such, it's certainly been overhyped in the media and he will always be compared to Fergie and Wenger and their attacking sides. I'd still say he is a defensice coach at heart. We're definately a side that is built from the back. Rafa ALWAYS talks about being 'compact', keeping a good shape and often the counter-attack and this is a bit of a giveaway for me. He's not an out an out defensive coach but if i was to put it into a percentage i would say 55% defensive 45% offensive.

Is our mentality more offensive this year? Maybe a little. The signings of Torres, Babel and Bennayoun indicate that but i don't know that we are attacking more freely, gambling, getting more players forward. I don't think the role of the full-backs has changed at all, we have played with two out-an-out wingers on a couple of occasions but only in tandem with two holding midfielders. When Gerrard has played we have lined up with Pennant (winger) on one side and the more defensively minded (and capable) Riise on the left so you can hardly say we are throwing caution to the wind. I'd echo what St.Mick posted and agree that the prescence of Torres and the qualities he brings to the side have completely changed the attack. We've got a frontmen who can do the lot, he can play on the shoulder, scare defenders with his pace, force them to play a deeper line, can run the channels, come short and link up the play and is technically in the top three at the club. We are a far more dynamic attacking side WITH Torres in the team. If the boys do put up a title charge this season it will require Torres to stay fit for the duration of the season. Everyone can already see what a massive player he is and canbe for this club if he carries on in the dame vein of form.

[dawson99]

interesting bit in racing post today including our very own jimmy case and also ian doyle just chatting about how we are doing

most seem to say we have added to attack without detracting to the defence which seems to be class.

Especially good to see is Kevin Pullien (the best statistion in sport) who likes our play as well.
Worth a read

[Sabre]

Mmmm.

One thing that catched my attention this games is that we always played two players upfront. It seems a popular formation for England, 2 strikers and one of them pacy. In that sense when you don't have Torres Babel could be an option as bigmick said.

But it catched my attention because Rafa hasn't chosen options that did try yesteryear -- and were not that popular up there. I thought that this season we'd see more of the single striker, with a man like Gerrard as a second striker of attacking midfielder and 2 attacking wingers. It seemed that we were buying the men to try it more often. It seemed a serious option because Liverpool used it against some teams like Arsenal (4-1) and Milan AC. But we haven't seen any of that. Maybe it will be used against some european teams only and not in the league.

So far only one variation in the formation. Last year we used 3, the mentioned 2, and a 3 centre back scheme to stop their direct play we played againt some poor opposition in the league and we won 0-3.

[Sabre]

I have a question, and it's about the gamestyle.

How important is pace for you?

It seems to me that in the islands pace is something that you value much. But should have every of our games pace in the line up? Meaning, if Torres is injured, should we play as Bigmick suggested Babel to keep that pace?

I'm not so sure. Milan AC won the CL with little pace upfront, Inzagui. Just a clever striker. IMHO, there are games like the one of yesterday in which pace is not that important. For instance, in the Portsmouth game, Torres would have been much more important than in the Birmingham one.

Anyhow, I'd like to hear your views about pace. For me is a good thing to have, but not a must, and in some games it's not the most important thing.

[account deleted by request]

Against teams that defend as deep as Brum did, pace is not that important, acceleration and anticipation (two components of pace) are more important. Getting to the ball first or with time to take a steadying touch is more down to the latter two rather than pace when teams leave little space between or behind.

Thats not to say it wouldn't have played a part against Brum if Torres had played from the start, just that it wasn't just lack of pace that stopped us scoring.

Pace plays a vital role in most games as it sets the opposition defence on the back foot before a ball has been struck. They have to defend deeper, which in turn means either the midfield drops back or leaves gaps between them and the defence.It forces teams to make choices they would rather not make.

Dalglish and Fowler were hardly the fastest players over 100 yds,or even 20yds, but they usually managed to get to the ball first, but play it 20yds infront of them and they would be struggling.

I don't however believe all Torres has to offer is pace, he seems to have much more to his game than that.

If you don't have pace in the team then you need more creativity (see my post in the time to take stock thread)

[AB's Red Army]

When you have a team that has set out a goal to defend for all ninety minutes, there is not going to be space for players with pace to run. That includes Torres.

In these type of games, the passing has to be quick and flowing, and it also needs to be in variations. For instance, passing in triangles. We lack that creativity as a team, we rarely do it consistently in games.

The movement off the ball has to be intelligent as well, and that doesn't mean that you need fast players to achieve this.

Our movements were predictable.
Our passing was predictable.