Liverpool FC Forum

[ycsatbjywtbiastkamb]

if 13 goals and 10 assists from a 34 year old 'DCM' isn't good enough for you lot, then I don't know what is.

You're a hard bunch to please.

The point is that we don't need our DM's to create and score goals, we have got other players who can do that, we need our DM's to just do their main job which is protecting the back 4 and winning the midfield battle which is something they don't do well enough.
Gerrard is not positionally aware enough or athletic enough to ever be a top class DM, as long as he is in the side we will always have defensive issue's and whilst he is there that high intensity pressing game Brendan spoke about when he first arrived will just be a pipe dream.
Why are we building our team around a 34 year old? Sentiment that's why, it's certainly not for footballing reasons.

Again, you seem to be completely dismissing the fact that Gerrard gets more touches than anyone else in the starting 11 and is a huge part of the reason why the players upfront get the ball in the spaces/times they do. His pass percentage is very high given his propensity to playing the long pass, but again that doesnt seem to figure in the criteria you judge him on.

Theres no disputing your arguments Yakka, but there isnt a player in world football that I know of who is as effective as Gerrard is in dictating the game and passing the ball while being significantly better than Gerrard at tracking back, covering runners, and protecting the back4.  Alonso is probably the closest in terms of role and overall ability but I wouldnt take him over Gerrard with all things considered.

By your definition of the role Yakka and your criteria, someone like Pirlo must be a complete liability. Doesnt score, doesnt get assists, cant track a runner or protect the backline to save his life, they have others who create in the side, etc.

Like I said earlier, Gerrard (his role) is as important as anything we have in the lineup. Play a Lucas, Flamini, or even a Ramirez type and the side will struggle to play the sort of attacking play we saw last season. Might make us a slightly better defensive outfit but it wont get us any closer to winning the title than focusing on out attacking game would.

But Gerrard doesn't dictate games from deep! That's the point! Our midfield has been getting outplayed by average teams for the past 18 months, comparing him to Pirlo is laughable when the likes of Schneiderlin and Ward-Prowse are giving us the run around on our own patch.
Some of you need to stop watching games with stars in your eyes, all great careers come to an end.

[kartiek]

A simple reason to always play Gerrard is dead ball deliveries -- remember Newcastle, last game of last season?

He is definitely becoming a more limited midfielder now, especially since he can't really perform his defensive duties at DM now. BUT, his passing and vision are still better than most midfielders out there. So unless we get ourselves the next best thing, we won't be dropping Gerrard any time soon.

[ycsatbjywtbiastkamb]

A simple reason to always play Gerrard is dead ball deliveries -- remember Newcastle, last game of last season?

He is definitely becoming a more limited midfielder now, especially since he can't really perform his defensive duties at DM now. BUT, his passing and vision are still better than most midfielders out there. So unless we get ourselves the next best thing, we won't be dropping Gerrard any time soon.

We wouldn't be replacing him like for like though, we'd be going in a totally different direction. We'd have 2 mobile, athletic DM's sitting infront of the back 4 who can get up and down the park, join in passing moves and press high up the pitch.
An effective pressing game is a formidable weapon that can take a team to a whole new level but we've got no chance of perfecting it whilst we have a player at the heart of our team who can't run.
People are also over stating what Gerrard does on the ball, 90% of the time he's just knocking it square and backwards which is a job the likes of Hendo and Can could do with their eyes closed. What's more we'd free up an extra space in our starting XI for another creative player, wether that be Balotelli, Lallana or Markovic depends on wether Brendan wanted to play 2 up top or not.
Gerrard is just clogging up the midfield, away at a good team it's not even enough to have one mobile CM next to him, we need to cover his @rse with two. DM's are meant to protect the back 4 but against anyone decent we have to bring in extra midfielders to protect our DM! Talk about a farce.
The fact that a manager would rather do that than drop him is another farce. I think Rodgers is terrified of a fan backlash but I think he'd be surprised just how many fans think it is time for Gerrard to play a lesser role, the ones who seem dead against it are the fans in their early 20's who grew up with Gerrard but the rest have seen these changing of the guard type scenario's many times before, ironically it's the players who went quickly who are best remembered, the careers that drag on like Phil Neal's tend to overshadow the decade of great performances that went before.

[Bill Shankly Rules]

Has Gerrard automatic pick as a starter becoming a problem in this LFC squad?. Stevie's main strength in this team is his ability to spread the pitch and deliver those long dead accurate passes ,however as he lost pace he is a liability in the DM role ,meaning BR always places another DM near him to cover for our captain diminished defensive coverage. Meaning we are basically losing a man in our MF ,If we could have settled for ONE dm ,likes of Hendo ,Allen or Can it opens the selection for another super talented attacking MF that can impact our game. I just can't see how between Lallana ,Couthinho ,Markovich ,Sterling they get any significant minutes...Especially if we rotate to a 2 strikers formation (Mario and Daniel)....Stevie is pretty grid-locking our MF and i don't see a way around it then dropping him to the bench.

Quality !

Some people will do anything for attention! No debate required. All of us here know Stevie has not got the legs to do the box to box stuff these days, but bear in mind he has been carrying the team for a decade!

ie history; Gerrard + Suarez show
                Gerrard + Torres Show
                Gerrard + Owen Show.  etc etc.

His  short/ long range passing/ commitment is still spot on. We know he ain't a 20 year old, but he will adapt.

I know, lets play Can, Hendo and Lucas every game....see where that gets us!

Until we can attract the big names in midfield accross Europe to anfield, not your Joe Allen's, unfortunately, we are always gonna struggle unfortunately. big changes are needed.

If we don't play Stevie G, we are in big trouble, as the rest haven't got a clue. We are in the Champions league this season also remember.

Don't start anymore topics mate, unless you grow some brain cells first.

[RED BEERGOGGLES]

A simple reason to always play Gerrard is dead ball deliveries -- remember Newcastle, last game of last season?

He is definitely becoming a more limited midfielder now, especially since he can't really perform his defensive duties at DM now. BUT, his passing and vision are still better than most midfielders out there. So unless we get ourselves the next best thing, we won't be dropping Gerrard any time soon.

We wouldn't be replacing him like for like though, we'd be going in a totally different direction. We'd have 2 mobile, athletic DM's sitting infront of the back 4 who can get up and down the park, join in passing moves and press high up the pitch.
An effective pressing game is a formidable weapon that can take a team to a whole new level but we've got no chance of perfecting it whilst we have a player at the heart of our team who can't run.
People are also over stating what Gerrard does on the ball, 90% of the time he's just knocking it square and backwards which is a job the likes of Hendo and Can could do with their eyes closed. What's more we'd free up an extra space in our starting XI for another creative player, wether that be Balotelli, Lallana or Markovic depends on wether Brendan wanted to play 2 up top or not.
Gerrard is just clogging up the midfield, away at a good team it's not even enough to have one mobile CM next to him, we need to cover his @rse with two. DM's are meant to protect the back 4 but against anyone decent we have to bring in extra midfielders to protect our DM! Talk about a farce.
The fact that a manager would rather do that than drop him is another farce. I think Rodgers is terrified of a fan backlash but I think he'd be surprised just how many fans think it is time for Gerrard to play a lesser role, the ones who seem dead against it are the fans in their early 20's who grew up with Gerrard but the rest have seen these changing of the guard type scenario's many times before, ironically it's the players who went quickly who are best remembered, the careers that drag on like Phil Neal's tend to overshadow the decade of great performances that went before.

Well said mate ,that post expounds on all my reservations ,especially the latter part about Neal.

[only me]

Has Gerrard automatic pick as a starter becoming a problem in this LFC squad?. Stevie's main strength in this team is his ability to spread the pitch and deliver those long dead accurate passes ,however as he lost pace he is a liability in the DM role ,meaning BR always places another DM near him to cover for our captain diminished defensive coverage. Meaning we are basically losing a man in our MF ,If we could have settled for ONE dm ,likes of Hendo ,Allen or Can it opens the selection for another super talented attacking MF that can impact our game. I just can't see how between Lallana ,Couthinho ,Markovich ,Sterling they get any significant minutes...Especially if we rotate to a 2 strikers formation (Mario and Daniel)....Stevie is pretty grid-locking our MF and i don't see a way around it then dropping him to the bench.

Quality !

Some people will do anything for attention! No debate required. All of us here know Stevie has not got the legs to do the box to box stuff these days, but bear in mind he has been carrying the team for a decade!

ie history; Gerrard + Suarez show
                Gerrard + Torres Show
                Gerrard + Owen Show.  etc etc.

His  short/ long range passing/ commitment is still spot on. We know he ain't a 20 year old, but he will adapt.

I know, lets play Can, Hendo and Lucas every game....see where that gets us!

Until we can attract the big names in midfield accross Europe to anfield, not your Joe Allen's, unfortunately, we are always gonna struggle unfortunately. big changes are needed.

If we don't play Stevie G, we are in big trouble, as the rest haven't got a clue. We are in the Champions league this season also remember.

Don't start anymore topics mate, unless you grow some brain cells first.

Funny post ,i thought i read some pretty similar sentiments to what i wrote but i might be going blind.
Anyway i think we got a good debate going on so forgive me for ignoring your suggestion. This topic isn't over Stevie legacy and History it's about the challenge he poses in this squad and in this team.

[Boocity]

A simple reason to always play Gerrard is dead ball deliveries -- remember Newcastle, last game of last season?

He is definitely becoming a more limited midfielder now, especially since he can't really perform his defensive duties at DM now. BUT, his passing and vision are still better than most midfielders out there. So unless we get ourselves the next best thing, we won't be dropping Gerrard any time soon.

We wouldn't be replacing him like for like though, we'd be going in a totally different direction. We'd have 2 mobile, athletic DM's sitting infront of the back 4 who can get up and down the park, join in passing moves and press high up the pitch.
An effective pressing game is a formidable weapon that can take a team to a whole new level but we've got no chance of perfecting it whilst we have a player at the heart of our team who can't run.
People are also over stating what Gerrard does on the ball, 90% of the time he's just knocking it square and backwards which is a job the likes of Hendo and Can could do with their eyes closed. What's more we'd free up an extra space in our starting XI for another creative player, wether that be Balotelli, Lallana or Markovic depends on wether Brendan wanted to play 2 up top or not.
Gerrard is just clogging up the midfield, away at a good team it's not even enough to have one mobile CM next to him, we need to cover his @rse with two. DM's are meant to protect the back 4 but against anyone decent we have to bring in extra midfielders to protect our DM! Talk about a farce.
The fact that a manager would rather do that than drop him is another farce. I think Rodgers is terrified of a fan backlash but I think he'd be surprised just how many fans think it is time for Gerrard to play a lesser role, the ones who seem dead against it are the fans in their early 20's who grew up with Gerrard but the rest have seen these changing of the guard type scenario's many times before, ironically it's the players who went quickly who are best remembered, the careers that drag on like Phil Neal's tend to overshadow the decade of great performances that went before.

Well said mate ,that post expounds on all my reservations ,especially the latter part about Neal.

yes, Callaghan is another that springs to mind

[Kopite-Jud]

But Gerrard doesn't dictate games from deep! That's the point! Our midfield has been getting outplayed by average teams for the past 18 months, comparing him to Pirlo is laughable when the likes of Schneiderlin and Ward-Prowse are giving us the run around on our own patch.
Some of you need to stop watching games with stars in your eyes, all great careers come to an end.

Doesn't dictate?

Are you saying we're a stronger team when he doesn't play ?

And you cant blame Gerrard for what happened at Anfield against Southampton because the whole team was turd.  Especially Lucas who wants to leave anyway.

It looks like because he's not dragging us through games on his own like he used to you're disregarding his value to the team.

He makes us tick his utility vision and passing are vital to the way we play.  Not to mention his leadership qualities and barking orders at other people for 90 minutes.

Believe me you'd notice if he wasn't playing.

[woof woof !]

Doesn't dictate?

Are you saying we're a stronger team when he doesn't play ?

And you cant blame Gerrard for what happened at Anfield against Southampton because the whole team was turd.  Especially Lucas who wants to leave anyway.

It looks like because he's not dragging us through games on his own like he used to you're disregarding his value to the team.

He makes us tick his utility vision and passing are vital to the way we play.  Not to mention his leadership qualities and barking orders at other people for 90 minutes.

Believe me you'd notice if he wasn't playing.

Save your breathe mate, there's some in here who are bent on blaming all our woes on Gerrard. They blithely disregard that last season our back four and keeper were about as solid as a freshly dropped cow pat, it was Gerrards fault. Our midfield who normally  play as though they were hewn from granite were constantly overun and out muscled, it was Gerrrards fault. It's fortunate that Suarez and Sturridge performed beyond expectations otherwise Gerrard would have been blamed for our lack of goals as well !

Apparently all we've got to do is replace him and our defensive problems will magically disappear.

Sure, Stevie G is well past his commanding best BUT if the players around him (CM''s CB's and FB's) performed their Fu*king job to a higher level of proficiency perhaps we wouldn't be having this so called "debate".

[ycsatbjywtbiastkamb]

But Gerrard doesn't dictate games from deep! That's the point! Our midfield has been getting outplayed by average teams for the past 18 months, comparing him to Pirlo is laughable when the likes of Schneiderlin and Ward-Prowse are giving us the run around on our own patch.
Some of you need to stop watching games with stars in your eyes, all great careers come to an end.

Doesn't dictate?

Are you saying we're a stronger team when he doesn't play ?

And you cant blame Gerrard for what happened at Anfield against Southampton because the whole team was turd.  Especially Lucas who wants to leave anyway.

It looks like because he's not dragging us through games on his own like he used to you're disregarding his value to the team.

He makes us tick his utility vision and passing are vital to the way we play.  Not to mention his leadership qualities and barking orders at other people for 90 minutes.

Believe me you'd notice if he wasn't playing.

We don't really know if we'd be better off without Gerrard because he's undroppable, no matter how poor he plays, no matter how many stinkers he has in a row, no matter how many times he loses his man, no matter how many clangers he drops, the manager won't drop him.
To say he dominates games is laughable, over the past year and a half our midfield has regularly found itself forced onto the back foot by bang average teams, last Saturday wasn't a one off, it's been happening for 18 months, the difference has been that while the opposition have been attacking us the likes of Luis and Danny have been hitting them with sucker punches.
Look at the way he ended last season by slipping over against Chelsea, look at his performances for England in the World Cup, look at that mistake he made against City in pre season which cost us a goal, if that was Allen or Lucas doing that they'd be lucky to still be at the club never mind guaranteed a starting place.
This club has got to become a meritocracy, if you play well you keep your place in the team, what we can't have is players guaranteed a place in the starting XI because of what they did a decade ago.
All I want is that if Gerrard plays well he stays in the team, if he doesn't his place is up for consideration, that's not asking much is it?

[supersub]

A simple reason to always play Gerrard is dead ball deliveries -- remember Newcastle, last game of last season?

He is definitely becoming a more limited midfielder now, especially since he can't really perform his defensive duties at DM now. BUT, his passing and vision are still better than most midfielders out there. So unless we get ourselves the next best thing, we won't be dropping Gerrard any time soon.

We wouldn't be replacing him like for like though, we'd be going in a totally different direction. We'd have 2 mobile, athletic DM's sitting infront of the back 4 who can get up and down the park, join in passing moves and press high up the pitch.
An effective pressing game is a formidable weapon that can take a team to a whole new level but we've got no chance of perfecting it whilst we have a player at the heart of our team who can't run.
People are also over stating what Gerrard does on the ball, 90% of the time he's just knocking it square and backwards which is a job the likes of Hendo and Can could do with their eyes closed. What's more we'd free up an extra space in our starting XI for another creative player, wether that be Balotelli, Lallana or Markovic depends on wether Brendan wanted to play 2 up top or not.
Gerrard is just clogging up the midfield, away at a good team it's not even enough to have one mobile CM next to him, we need to cover his @rse with two. DM's are meant to protect the back 4 but against anyone decent we have to bring in extra midfielders to protect our DM! Talk about a farce.
The fact that a manager would rather do that than drop him is another farce. I think Rodgers is terrified of a fan backlash but I think he'd be surprised just how many fans think it is time for Gerrard to play a lesser role, the ones who seem dead against it are the fans in their early 20's who grew up with Gerrard but the rest have seen these changing of the guard type scenario's many times before, ironically it's the players who went quickly who are best remembered, the careers that drag on like Phil Neal's tend to overshadow the decade of great performances that went before.

Well said mate ,that post expounds on all my reservations ,especially the latter part about Neal.

[RED BEERGOGGLES]

But Gerrard doesn't dictate games from deep! That's the point! Our midfield has been getting outplayed by average teams for the past 18 months, comparing him to Pirlo is laughable when the likes of Schneiderlin and Ward-Prowse are giving us the run around on our own patch.
Some of you need to stop watching games with stars in your eyes, all great careers come to an end.

Doesn't dictate?

Are you saying we're a stronger team when he doesn't play ?

And you cant blame Gerrard for what happened at Anfield against Southampton because the whole team was turd.  Especially Lucas who wants to leave anyway.

It looks like because he's not dragging us through games on his own like he used to you're disregarding his value to the team.

He makes us tick his utility vision and passing are vital to the way we play.  Not to mention his leadership qualities and barking orders at other people for 90 minutes.

Believe me you'd notice if he wasn't playing.

He never played against Spurs away last season ,and that was our best and most vibrant performance of the season ,and as for not dragging us through games ,he
can barely drag his arse over the half way line unless he's taking a set play ..... I'm afraid teams will target his defensive frailties this season ,thus once again undermining the strength of our football and what we're lead to believe 'are Rodgers philosophies'. In short ,if the team is due a shake up ,it needs to start with what exactly Gerrard affords to the solidity of our midfield,because from where I'm watching its not just his legs that are on the wane.

[aCe']

But Gerrard doesn't dictate games from deep! That's the point! Our midfield has been getting outplayed by average teams for the past 18 months, comparing him to Pirlo is laughable when the likes of Schneiderlin and Ward-Prowse are giving us the run around on our own patch.
Some of you need to stop watching games with stars in your eyes, all great careers come to an end.

Doesn't dictate?

Are you saying we're a stronger team when he doesn't play ?

And you cant blame Gerrard for what happened at Anfield against Southampton because the whole team was turd.  Especially Lucas who wants to leave anyway.

It looks like because he's not dragging us through games on his own like he used to you're disregarding his value to the team.

He makes us tick his utility vision and passing are vital to the way we play.  Not to mention his leadership qualities and barking orders at other people for 90 minutes.

Believe me you'd notice if he wasn't playing.

He never played against Spurs away last season ,and that was our best and most vibrant performance of the season ,and as for not dragging us through games ,he
can barely drag his arse over the half way line unless he's taking a set play ..... I'm afraid teams will target his defensive frailties this season ,thus once again undermining the strength of our football and what we're lead to believe 'are Rodgers philosophies'. In short ,if the team is due a shake up ,it needs to start with what exactly Gerrard affords to the solidity of our midfield,because from where I'm watching its not just his legs that are on the wane.

Almost as clueless a post as the one a couple of posts before it claiming we almost never dominate games. I'm truly torn here by your posts and Yakka's to be honest. On the one hand, theres this claim that we dont dominate games. Which for all intents and purposes means that we havent been moving the ball around and keeping possession well enough regardless of how we do defensively. Understandable claim because even strong sides like Chelsea often lose the possession battle to inferior sides. What I do not understand when that argument is made is this, are you suggesting replacing Gerrard with a better passes ? perhaps a Xavi who would average a near perfect pass completion ration.

On the other hand, you largely have the same posters claiming that we need someone who is better at tracking back. An argument that I can understand a bit more despite not agreeing with. But bringing in this destroyer Sissoko type to replace Gerrard isnt going to help us dominate games any more than we do now. Not in a million years.

Looking at both arguments we have to try and put things in perspective, which is what I think many fail to do. Forget about his age, the fact that he shouldnt be an automatic starter and all that. Our style of play last season was a very direct one that relied very heavily on our ability to move the ball from the back (often as far back as the goalkeeper) to GERRARD to the attacking midfielders. Quite often, the ball goes from CB/FB to Gerrard to one of Coutinho, Sterling, Suarez, Sturridge. The fact that we dont play wide players (and most probably wont this season) means that someone playing a bit deeper has to pick up that ball from the backline and transition it efficiently and effectively to the final third. More often than not, you'll need someone with the ability to either slide it through bodies or go for the long pass to make this more direct style work and catch teams before they get banks of bodies back in defensive situations. Personally, I dont think Lucas, Allen, or Henderson are capable of doing that anywhere near as effectively as Gerrard does. You only need to look at his heat map in most games and put it alongside a map of where his passes go to see his importance to the way we play and our attacking game.

With regards to his defensive deficiencies, I cant argue with that. He's no Makelele and his age and lack of experience in the new role will mean that he'll lose a runner every now and then leading to us conceding. The alternative you speak of though is way too simplistic and I dont think it would work over the course of a season despite it working once or twice. Bringing in a different style of player to replace him would mean having no one dropping alongside the 2 CBs and effectively that adds to the responsibility of Lovren, Skrtel, Sakho and the fullbacks. Something I am quite confident they cant handle or Rodgers wouldnt have had to move Gerrard into the position in the first place. Add to that the fact that our fullbacks (Moreno still untested) arent the quickest or most established on the ball and I can only see us replacing Gerrard with someone of a similar skill-set when he calls it a day.

[RED BEERGOGGLES]

Almost as clueless a post as the one a couple of posts before it claiming we almost never dominate games. I'm truly torn here by your posts and Yakka's to be honest. On the one hand, theres this claim that we dont dominate games. Which for all intents and purposes means that we havent been moving the ball around and keeping possession well enough regardless of how we do defensively. Understandable claim because even strong sides like Chelsea often lose the possession battle to inferior sides. What I do not understand when that argument is made is this, are you suggesting replacing Gerrard with a better passes ? perhaps a Xavi who would average a near perfect pass completion ration.

On the other hand, you largely have the same posters claiming that we need someone who is better at tracking back. An argument that I can understand a bit more despite not agreeing with. But bringing in this destroyer Sissoko type to replace Gerrard isnt going to help us dominate games any more than we do now. Not in a million years.

Looking at both arguments we have to try and put things in perspective, which is what I think many fail to do. Forget about his age, the fact that he shouldnt be an automatic starter and all that. Our style of play last season was a very direct one that relied very heavily on our ability to move the ball from the back (often as far back as the goalkeeper) to GERRARD to the attacking midfielders. Quite often, the ball goes from CB/FB to Gerrard to one of Coutinho, Sterling, Suarez, Sturridge. The fact that we dont play wide players (and most probably wont this season) means that someone playing a bit deeper has to pick up that ball from the backline and transition it efficiently and effectively to the final third. More often than not, you'll need someone with the ability to either slide it through bodies or go for the long pass to make this more direct style work and catch teams before they get banks of bodies back in defensive situations. Personally, I dont think Lucas, Allen, or Henderson are capable of doing that anywhere near as effectively as Gerrard does. You only need to look at his heat map in most games and put it alongside a map of where his passes go to see his importance to the way we play and our attacking game.

With regards to his defensive deficiencies, I cant argue with that. He's no Makelele and his age and lack of experience in the new role will mean that he'll lose a runner every now and then leading to us conceding. The alternative you speak of though is way too simplistic and I dont think it would work over the course of a season despite it working once or twice. Bringing in a different style of player to replace him would mean having no one dropping alongside the 2 CBs and effectively that adds to the responsibility of Lovren, Skrtel, Sakho and the fullbacks. Something I am quite confident they cant handle or Rodgers wouldnt have had to move Gerrard into the position in the first place. Add to that the fact that our fullbacks (Moreno still untested) arent the quickest or most established on the ball and I can only see us replacing Gerrard with someone of a similar skill-set when he calls it a day.

If a post was bereft of any common sense then you can be openly dismissive and can render  it 'clueless' ,but when you're forced to concur with some valid points
ie Gerrard's defensive deficiencies then how can it be construed as clueless ?  Anyway It makes no difference whatsoever ,the truth of the matter is however you
try to colour it ,Gerrard compromises the system and his inclusion significantly weakens the defensive side of our game. I mean it may have escaped your keen
eye ,but it certainly hasn't eluded the opposition's, and these weaknesses much like Johnsons are clearly visible and more often than not denotes the tactics they deploy....Lets face facts here ,neither one of us are going to arrive with an argument that will bring this debate to its conclusion ,it will probably rage on for the
next couple of months depending on our performances and more specifically Gerrards.

[woof woof !]

Moreno misses his kick, City score

Gerrard is obviously to blame