Liverpool FC Forum

[god_bless_john_houlding]

Bollox zonal?? well sorry but myou have just shown a lack of understanding, because that bollox works.

Zonal marking may work in the european game, stats may suggest it works in england but the truth is, it doesn't. Taking Bolton as the prime example, our last game against Bolton the only time they looked like scoring was through a set piece. They hit the bar, forced cahos in the box and eventually scored through set pieces. The derby earlier this season, all cahos in our box came from set peices (corners, free kicks and long throws.)

Zonal marking doesn't work, which is why when you look most goals we conceed come from set pieces and if they don't score they will certainly cause cahos in our box. Also zonal marking is such a defensive minded way, you see this when we drag EVERYONE back to defend a corner. So if by some flucky chance we defend the corner properly, there's no one in an advanced position to counter attack.

[LFC2007]

Johns initial question is a fair one but really there isn't really a sensible answer. Of course it wil the case for the forseeable future that we'll be "outmonied" by Man Utd and Chelsea, as well as "out-experienced" by Wenger and Ferguson. This is why it is IMHO a bit silly to constantly refer to these two facts when defending the managers position.

We may be 'outmonied' for the foreseeable, but to what extent is the question. If come the summer, DIC have managed to seize control of the club, we may be able to spend on a level close to the Manc's or Chelsea, but probably not exceed. If we do exceed their levels of spending, it would only be by virtue of the fact that they've been spending on a level wholly superior to ours for a while. If we have the ability to spend on a £15m per player level for 2 or 3 players, that'd probably suffice for me. It's difficult to predict what the ownership and financial status of the club will be in the summer, therefore it's hard to call. Even if we don't arrive at a situation whereby we are able to spend in that bracket, I can't see any other manager making a better crack at it in that season than Rafa would.

[LFC2007]

Bollox zonal?? well sorry but myou have just shown a lack of understanding, because that bollox works.

Zonal marking may work in the european game, stats may suggest it works in england but the truth is, it doesn't. Taking Bolton as the prime example, our last game against Bolton the only time they looked like scoring was through a set piece. They hit the bar, forced cahos in the box and eventually scored through set pieces. The derby earlier this season, all cahos in our box came from set peices (corners, free kicks and long throws.)

Zonal marking doesn't work, which is why when you look most goals we conceed come from set pieces and if they don't score they will certainly cause cahos in our box. Also zonal marking is such a defensive minded way, you see this when we drag EVERYONE back to defend a corner. So if by some flucky chance we defend the corner properly, there's no one in an advanced position to counter attack.

Our defensive record this season hasn't been as good as in our previous two seasons, and this season we've been particularly poor at set pieces, defensively and attacking wise (for the purposes of my post our attacking at set-pieces is irrelevant). The system itself has not been at fault, by virtue of the fact that our defensive record has been so good in our previous two seasons in which the system has been implemented. The application of the system by the players has been part of the reason we've conceded more goals (65% of goals conceded I think) from set pieces than usual. We haven't been as focussed, as alert, as forthright in attacking the ball and zones occupied, and also to a lesser extent - the fact that Crouch hasn't played as often this season. When he plays, although not always, he often cleared the ball himself, or helped put-off the opposition from headering the ball. The system is not fundamentally flawed if implemented correctly by the players.

[god_bless_john_houlding]

Bollox zonal?? well sorry but myou have just shown a lack of understanding, because that bollox works.

Zonal marking may work in the european game, stats may suggest it works in england but the truth is, it doesn't. Taking Bolton as the prime example, our last game against Bolton the only time they looked like scoring was through a set piece. They hit the bar, forced cahos in the box and eventually scored through set pieces. The derby earlier this season, all cahos in our box came from set peices (corners, free kicks and long throws.)

Zonal marking doesn't work, which is why when you look most goals we conceed come from set pieces and if they don't score they will certainly cause cahos in our box. Also zonal marking is such a defensive minded way, you see this when we drag EVERYONE back to defend a corner. So if by some flucky chance we defend the corner properly, there's no one in an advanced position to counter attack.

Our defensive record this season hasn't been as good as in our previous two seasons, and this season we've been particularly poor at set pieces, defensively and attacking wise. The system itself has not been at fault, by virtue of the fact that our defensive record has been so good in our previous two seasons in which the system has been implemented. The application of the system by the players has been part of the reason we've conceded more goals (65% of goals conceded I think) from set pieces than usual. We haven't been as focussed, as alert, as forthright in attacking the ball and zones occupied, and also to a lesser extent - the fact that Crouch hasn't played as often this season. When he plays, although not always, he often cleared the ball himself, or helped put-off the opposition from headering the ball. The system is not fundamentally flawed if implemented correctly by the players.

I understand what you're saying but if you look at those earlier seasons, I assume (can't be certain) that the majority of ours conceeded goals come from set pieces. Again if not teams actually scoring, we very rarely seem to win the first header, it's either the second ball defended well or a good save by Reina. I'm not a fan of zonal marking and I doubt it'll change my mind.

[bigmick]

headering the ball.

  love that phrase, we used to always talk about "headering" it when I was a kid. Phrases such as "headering" and "goalie" featured all the time in our "three and your in" games out the back of Eastfield shops.

As for zonal defending, I'm sorry John but I don't think you've got an argument. There's been numerous threads on the subject since Rafa came, and I'm as convinced now as I've ever been that zonal defending is superior to man marking from set pieces. Ultimately if defenders don't attack the ball, it doesn't matter whether you defend in zones or traffic cones you will concede goals. The system itself is not rubbish on this occasion, the people playing within it oaccasionally have been.

[LFC2007]

I understand what you're saying but if you look at those earlier seasons, I assume (can't be certain) that the majority of ours conceeded goals come from set pieces. Again if not teams actually scoring, we very rarely seem to win the first header, it's either the second ball defended well or a good save by Reina. I'm not a fan of zonal marking and I doubt it'll change my mind.

I'm not sure, perhaps ask owzat. I'm certainly not bothering to go through every goal we've scored over the past two seasons categorizing whether it was conceded from a set piece or not. Then you'd have to do the same with Chelsea, Arsenal and Man U.

[bigmick]

I understand what you're saying but if you look at those earlier seasons, I assume (can't be certain) that the majority of ours conceeded goals come from set pieces. Again if not teams actually scoring, we very rarely seem to win the first header, it's either the second ball defended well or a good save by Reina. I'm not a fan of zonal marking and I doubt it'll change my mind.

Wasn't it the case last season that we had the best record of defending set-pieces in the league? I really think one of the biggest barriers to understanding zonal marking is Andy Gray. He's bang against it, slags it off at every turn and then in the next breath talks about his preference for putting a bloke on either post      Putting a bloke on the post is zonal defending in it's most basic form imaginable (not saying I don't agree with it BTW,) but the fact the irony is lost on old bluehead never ceases to amaze me.

Zonal defending is all about probabilities. The probability is that you are at your greatest danger from a headed goal from in the centre of the six yard box, so that's where you put your best header. You take the view that there is the distinct possibility that that is where the opposition will place their best headers, so you act accordingly. Far better than Hyppia picking up Drogba only for the slimy fecker to back out of the danger zone leaving John Terry up against Aurelio in the centre. Let the attackers move around all they like pre-delivery, you know Hyppia will be in the centre of the six yard box. Just like when you put a bloke on the post, you effectively "zonal mark" the post as you assume there is a fair chance the ball might go there.

Once the ball is delivered of course, it's down to the defenders to attack it. The exact same principle applies if you are man-marking. You don't say to a man marker "only attack the ball if your bloke goes for it". You tell him to attack it if he can get to it, head through it, always back in the direction it came from from at 12 0 clock to 2 0 clock and never towards and past 3 0 clock. Same principle as man marking. If somebody gets a free header, it simply means the defenders aren't atacking it. When somebody gets free header in man marking, there is the additional possibility the attacker has lost the defender through clever movement. Zonal marking is definately the way to go, and despite what some idiots on the telly tell you everyone does it to a lesser or greater extent.

[londonboy77]

This will be my first ever post and do you know what, I am not even a Liverpool fan.

As a kid growing up in the 80's the first thing I knew about football was Liverpool but as I grew older and managed to find out a little more about the game I formed my own allegiances. That said, I still find myself following with great interest the club who it all started with for me.

What amazes me is the level of knowledge and the ability to articulate the point of all the posters so I will try to make my point but you may need to bear with me! Nothing I say will be unique or, more likely, even interesting but sometimes the view of an outsider looking in can be enlightening...a little like when your mate tells you your wife is getting fat.

I think it is patently obvious that both the team and squad are not strong enough to win the Premiership however what is worrying is the level of underperformance. There is no way that a squad as good as it is should be struggling to secure fourth spot...a good season for Liverpool at the moment would be a point behind Chelsea...outside chance for the title and given it a good shot, creating a platform to move up into what I fear is fast becoming "The Big Three".

The original post asked how long and how much...

How much? As much as it takes...because you are starting from behind the other three, who will probably spend £150m between them in the summer, you may need more. While Rafa has spent a lot in the past few years, he hasn't spent more than Man U and Chelsea...I think he's actually spent less and certainly has recouped money making his nett spending lower than the others. When he took over the other three had either years of stability and building beneath them or a huge pot of money...or both. I fear in answer to how much, the answer is much, much more.

How Long? Only Champions League success has helped to paper over the cracks and at the risk of contradicting myself I think Liverpool have underperformed. It doesn't look like he has got the best out of his players at times and certainly the team is hugely over-rotated. Stability in the club needs to come from the top but I feel that Rafa has had enough time and it is time to start a new era in the long and illustrious history of Liverpool Football Club.

The new manager will still have to deal with not having the finances or years of building that the other three have had but a manager needs to be brought in who can get the team to over-achieve rather than under-achieve. Need to catch the coat tails of the other three rather than constantly being 20 points behind.

Good Luck, I fear you may need it.

[Toffeehater]

No i can't and am surprised you could answered mine. The decision to continue with a manager is based on his performance in his past and the likelyhood of continued progression, which in reality changes each year. I would assess the manager at the end of each season, and decide then whether he is fulfilling his job description, and if not why not, and then was that his fault or not, inline with the plan we agreed when we took him on.

How you can say £50-80m should be enough is absurd, firstly that is a difference of £30m ffs, or of 2-3 good players, so not much of a plan, and secondly in a years time, the price of transfers could increase by 50% so that would be an insignificant amount, or thirdly teams like Villa, Spurs might spend double what we do, so then would it still be fair to expect our team to outperform them? (oh and saying we are LFC and should be is not a valid argument).

As it is for next season for me he gets another year, he deserves it because he has earnt it and because this year has almost been a write off, and we all know why whether we accept it publically or not. I also want Rafa to have enough money, via sales or whatever, to buy another top class forward to complement Torres at the least. It should mean, if left alone, a genuine challenge.

Bollox zonal?? well sorry but myou have just shown a lack of understanding, because that bollox works.

I know you yearn for the way we used to do things, but those days have long gone, along with flares, perms and tight shorts.

You're Confused mate if u say zonal works , 65% of our goals have been conceded from set pieces , what does that tell you abt zonal marking?

[dawson99]

When abamovich first took over cheatski everyone was moaning and saying how bad it was that cheatski bought the league. Now a few years later we are saying we should do exactly the same thing. Our imaginary perfect teams state how we need to spend £100 million and we are all saying how bad the directors are by not throwing money to win the league.

I say id rather not win the league than win it by just buying everyone for stupid money.

We want the league. rafa wants the league and he needs help to do it. What i dont want is to get in the cheatski mindset of buying it. we have the players, maybe we need one or two... but we dont need to break the bank. Rafa also needs a number 2 far mroe than we need a winger or striker.... thats what i think anyway

[Leonmc0708]

No i can't and am surprised you could answered mine. The decision to continue with a manager is based on his performance in his past and the likelyhood of continued progression, which in reality changes each year. I would assess the manager at the end of each season, and decide then whether he is fulfilling his job description, and if not why not, and then was that his fault or not, inline with the plan we agreed when we took him on.

How you can say £50-80m should be enough is absurd, firstly that is a difference of £30m ffs, or of 2-3 good players, so not much of a plan, and secondly in a years time, the price of transfers could increase by 50% so that would be an insignificant amount, or thirdly teams like Villa, Spurs might spend double what we do, so then would it still be fair to expect our team to outperform them? (oh and saying we are LFC and should be is not a valid argument).

As it is for next season for me he gets another year, he deserves it because he has earnt it and because this year has almost been a write off, and we all know why whether we accept it publically or not. I also want Rafa to have enough money, via sales or whatever, to buy another top class forward to complement Torres at the least. It should mean, if left alone, a genuine challenge.

Bollox zonal?? well sorry but myou have just shown a lack of understanding, because that bollox works.

I know you yearn for the way we used to do things, but those days have long gone, along with flares, perms and tight shorts.

You're Confused mate if u say zonal works , 65% of our goals have been conceded from set pieces , what does that tell you abt zonal marking?

If we only conceded 20 goals, then that would be not that bad as it means we are tight at the back and teams scored only 7 goals form open play and 13 from set pieces.

If we concede 100 goals then it means we are shi.te.

You need to quantify it.

[Leonmc0708]

This will be my first ever post and do you know what, I am not even a Liverpool fan.

As a kid growing up in the 80's the first thing I knew about football was Liverpool but as I grew older and managed to find out a little more about the game I formed my own allegiances. That said, I still find myself following with great interest the club who it all started with for me.

What amazes me is the level of knowledge and the ability to articulate the point of all the posters so I will try to make my point but you may need to bear with me! Nothing I say will be unique or, more likely, even interesting but sometimes the view of an outsider looking in can be enlightening...a little like when your mate tells you your wife is getting fat.

I think it is patently obvious that both the team and squad are not strong enough to win the Premiership however what is worrying is the level of underperformance. There is no way that a squad as good as it is should be struggling to secure fourth spot...a good season for Liverpool at the moment would be a point behind Chelsea...outside chance for the title and given it a good shot, creating a platform to move up into what I fear is fast becoming "The Big Three".

The original post asked how long and how much...

How much? As much as it takes...because you are starting from behind the other three, who will probably spend £150m between them in the summer, you may need more. While Rafa has spent a lot in the past few years, he hasn't spent more than Man U and Chelsea...I think he's actually spent less and certainly has recouped money making his nett spending lower than the others. When he took over the other three had either years of stability and building beneath them or a huge pot of money...or both. I fear in answer to how much, the answer is much, much more.

How Long? Only Champions League success has helped to paper over the cracks and at the risk of contradicting myself I think Liverpool have underperformed. It doesn't look like he has got the best out of his players at times and certainly the team is hugely over-rotated. Stability in the club needs to come from the top but I feel that Rafa has had enough time and it is time to start a new era in the long and illustrious history of Liverpool Football Club.

The new manager will still have to deal with not having the finances or years of building that the other three have had but a manager needs to be brought in who can get the team to over-achieve rather than under-achieve. Need to catch the coat tails of the other three rather than constantly being 20 points behind.

Good Luck, I fear you may need it.

Great post - make sure its not your last.

[LFC2007]

No i can't and am surprised you could answered mine. The decision to continue with a manager is based on his performance in his past and the likelyhood of continued progression, which in reality changes each year. I would assess the manager at the end of each season, and decide then whether he is fulfilling his job description, and if not why not, and then was that his fault or not, inline with the plan we agreed when we took him on.

How you can say £50-80m should be enough is absurd, firstly that is a difference of £30m ffs, or of 2-3 good players, so not much of a plan, and secondly in a years time, the price of transfers could increase by 50% so that would be an insignificant amount, or thirdly teams like Villa, Spurs might spend double what we do, so then would it still be fair to expect our team to outperform them? (oh and saying we are LFC and should be is not a valid argument).

As it is for next season for me he gets another year, he deserves it because he has earnt it and because this year has almost been a write off, and we all know why whether we accept it publically or not. I also want Rafa to have enough money, via sales or whatever, to buy another top class forward to complement Torres at the least. It should mean, if left alone, a genuine challenge.

Bollox zonal?? well sorry but myou have just shown a lack of understanding, because that bollox works.

I know you yearn for the way we used to do things, but those days have long gone, along with flares, perms and tight shorts.

You're Confused mate if u say zonal works , 65% of our goals have been conceded from set pieces , what does that tell you abt zonal marking?

Did you not read the intervening posts?

[Toffeehater]

No i can't and am surprised you could answered mine. The decision to continue with a manager is based on his performance in his past and the likelyhood of continued progression, which in reality changes each year. I would assess the manager at the end of each season, and decide then whether he is fulfilling his job description, and if not why not, and then was that his fault or not, inline with the plan we agreed when we took him on.

How you can say £50-80m should be enough is absurd, firstly that is a difference of £30m ffs, or of 2-3 good players, so not much of a plan, and secondly in a years time, the price of transfers could increase by 50% so that would be an insignificant amount, or thirdly teams like Villa, Spurs might spend double what we do, so then would it still be fair to expect our team to outperform them? (oh and saying we are LFC and should be is not a valid argument).

As it is for next season for me he gets another year, he deserves it because he has earnt it and because this year has almost been a write off, and we all know why whether we accept it publically or not. I also want Rafa to have enough money, via sales or whatever, to buy another top class forward to complement Torres at the least. It should mean, if left alone, a genuine challenge.

Bollox zonal?? well sorry but myou have just shown a lack of understanding, because that bollox works.

I know you yearn for the way we used to do things, but those days have long gone, along with flares, perms and tight shorts.

You're Confused mate if u say zonal works , 65% of our goals have been conceded from set pieces , what does that tell you abt zonal marking?

If we only conceded 20 goals, then that would be not that bad as it means we are tight at the back and teams scored only 7 goals form open play and 13 from set pieces.

If we concede 100 goals then it means we are shi.te.

You need to quantify it.

Those 13 goals can be avoided , thats what i'm trying to say , if we can reduce them to lets say abt 5 goals only conceded from set pieces we would have won or gotten points from many more games , manu whr we conceded from a corner , just to name a game .

[nobybob]

You're Confused mate if u say zonal works , 65% of our goals have been conceded from set pieces , what does that tell you abt zonal marking?

Basically this means nothing as i think you will find most teams will have conceded about 65% of their gaols from set pieces  ZONAL MARKING OR NOT simply because a set piece is  such a dangerous posistion to be in. Also as someone else pointed out if we only conceded 20 goals a season then 65% of that (13) would be not to bad at all, so your use of this figure to condem zonal marking is very strange mate:(