Liverpool FC Forum

[Owzat]

Latest figure I've seen is £15m, ridiculous sum for a full-back.That would be our 4th highest fee paid for a player

£21m Torres
£20.3m Keane
£18.6m Mascherano
£15m Johnson?
£14m Cisse
£11.5m Babel
£11m Heskey
£10.5m Alonso
£10m Diouf
£10m Kuyt

All but Alonso and Mascherano are attacking players, that list is worrying because there are as many wastes of money as there are quality signings.

We should set a price, set a time period and not drag out negotiations. £15m is about £5m more than I'd be happy to pay for him, are we that desperate to land an English FB who is good, but £15m worth!?!?!? Offer them £8m plus Degen and Plessis, confuse the issue a bit. We start spending £15m on full-backs, as if £7m on Dossena shouldn't have taught us a lesson, then that could be 1/3 of our budget. I know RB is one of the areas a number on here, including myself, feel is a position needs sorting, but £15m is a shedload to pay for English and I'm not sure our budget is really big enough to be spending that much on full-backs.

[redtrader74]

Another example of an overrated English player, for a defender he is poor defensively, makes a lot of mistakes, and has a lack of concentration. Yeah he looks good going forward, but he is no better than Arbeloa in his primary role as a defender, so not much of an improvement. £15M Would be a stupid price to pay.

[tubby]

I think your wrong there, at least in terms of his defensive qualities. Johnson is naturally more atheletic so would command a more physyical presense at the back which is what we need. Arby is good on his day but far too many times this season he has been in what someone described as 'Siesta mode'. Johnson is an England international so naturally his price tag will be inflated. Name me one England international player whose price tag is not inflated.

[Ace Ventura]

Am with mick, i like him and think he would definately be an upgrade on Arbeloa (who i would want to keep as he is solid and versatile)
The money being talked about however does seem too much, upto 10 million would be about right.

If we do get him i am confident some of the doubters may be surprised, he has matured alot since his Chelsea days when he was a defensive liability.

I know he hasnt been put under the same pressure at pompey but if he signs for us in our current system with Alonso and Mascherano in the middle and Dirk ahead of him he would have alot of protection around him.

He has also shown he can score goals, he scored a really good goal away at Everton on the opening day of the season where he got in behind the defence.
Our fullbacks dont do that nearly enough and it can often be the key to unlocking tight games where the other side parks the bus.

[Cool Hand Luke]

If we get Johnson and pay an 8 figure fee for him Rafa needs shooting in the head.

[HacksawJimDuggin]

I rate Johnson highly but agree that £10m + is a lot of money for a RB.

He is young, mobile and offers us something we don't already have. I personally think he would be best deployed as a right wing back in a 3-4-1-2 formation -

Reina

Agger
Skrtel
Carra/Hangeland

Johnson
Alonso/Barry
Mascha
Silva

Gerrard

Torres
Tevez/Kuyt

Now that is some team!!

[Rafa D]

Unsure.

When he first burst on the scene for West Ham at the tender age of 18, he looked fantastic. Chelsea bought him and I remember he being quite decent there at first. However we all know what happened next, and its only in the last 12 months playing for Portsmouth that he is being noticed. Harry Redknapp rated him as a top, top player and Harry knows his stuff. However I think Harry was exactly the type of manager to get the best out of him as he obviously needs the old "arm round his shoulder" when things are not going too well, can anyone honestly say he would get that here with Rafa?

Also I can't get it out of my head the time we played Chelsea at Anfield a couple of years ago and everything we did was down his side because he was that poor, it was as simple as Rafa saying attack that side, and it worked wonders. He looked like a lost little boy and I was actually wondering how he could be that bad.


Looking at it from the other side, he has been solid and dependable this year for Pompey and looks great going forward. I seem to recall him scoring a few goal of the season contenders this year, and I think he did score about 5 from a RB position? And that was in a bad Portsmouth side.


The 17m that BM floated about is nowhere near the mark though in my opinion. I'd hopefully like to see it done and dusted for around 8m - 12m. Depends if he will leave and whether others come in for him. I would expect Spurs to make a serious offer if Harry was being honest.

[Igor Zidane]

I don't think Johnson is good enough to warrant such a fee. In fact I wouldn't be thinking of paying more than 7 or 8 million for him. Not a great defender by any stretch of the imagination and even limited going forward. Better than Arbeloa....... probably, but not by much. I hoped for better and at that price I think we could get better.

i'm with saint on this one . I don't even think he's an improvement on Albie . I 'd rather spend the money elsewhere and bring young steven darby through to give albie a run for his money.

[Bad Bob]

Not comparing the two based on disciplinary issues/mischief away from the pitch but doesn't this seem like our pursuit of Pennant all over again?  A talented lad who struggled at a top club but who looked the business at a bottom-half club only to underwhelm when eventually brought in.

[Rafa D]

Didn't he once get lifted for robbing a bog seat from B&Q?

Its Pennant MKII


http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2007/jan/19/newsstory.sport3

Found it

[bigmick]

Whenever you go in and pay big money for a player who is largely unproven, it is by defintition a gamble. My "17 million" was really just to stir the waters up a bit, and to emphasise that I really think this kid has something. Obviously I'd rather get him for 10 or 12, but if Spurs are looking then we may have to go higher, and if we want him I think he has a chance of being worth it.

The two things to consider are firstly do we want him, and secondly is he worth what is being asked?

On the first question, I really like Arbeloa. I do tend to like the solid pro's who do a job for you every week, I even like Kuyt in truth, it's more those who try and stifle any sensible debate him from a football sense who do my head in. Arby is a solid a pro as you could get, and he is a good player too. Do we desperately need to replace him? No. Are there other spots in the team in more urgent need of surgery? Yes. So why then?

Well (little sigh here because I know which way this is going to go), because we play Dirk on the right side of midfield, and because that has a huge impact upon the flow of the team, the cohesion, the rhythm etc etc, we probably do need a footballing full back who can compensate. Arby would be peachy playing behind Ronaldo, but behind Kuyt there is a sense that we are effectively lending the bus parkers the keys to the wheel clamps which they have stationed down the right side. Kuyt is obviously going to play for the forseeable, so perhaps something has to give and unfortunately, it may be Arby.

Now Johnson, what are you paying top dollar for? Well I was talking about Insua a few days back and said that I doubted he had the tools to become an absolute World beater, and that I felt he was more likely to be a solid full back. What I meant by that is that he hasn't shown me so far that he's likely to a Danny Alves, a Patrice Evra or a Martin Skyrtel (just kidding). He's doesn't look massively pacey or tricky, obviously isn't going to arrive back post and head it in, nor does he have the cultured implement in terms of his left foot of an Aurelio. Good solid little player he is though.

In the case of Johnson, although he is unproven on the biggest stages, he has all the clubs in the bag. He has pace, power, skill, can shoot and is decent in the air. Clearly going forward he has enough going for him to cause absolutely anybody a problem, while he is easily a good enough athlete to be able to bomb up and down the line all day long. He has a trick, knocks a great ball in and looks to me to be making that transition from being a boy into a man. By that, I mean that when it kicks off he is big enough and daft enough to be in there dragging players apart, and hard enough to say to their hard ones "fecking behave yourself". Think the transition for Rio Ferdinand from gangly centre half who was prone to mistakes, into a proiper big fella who can handle himself as he is now. It happens for fellas in their mid twenties, and Johnson looks to me like he has matured both as a footballer and a person.

I think in a good team (of which we are one) he will score goals. I think he will make goals, cause goals, win matches. I think against the bus parkers, when it's locked up at 0-0 he's good enough to occasionally kick the doors in and get you the three points, a little like Evra does for Man UItd occasionally. He'll get beyond the play, he'll link it up, and he'll make Kuyts contribution more than the sum of it's parts.

Defensively he's good enough. His pace and power gets him out of most tight spots, and he's decent in the air. People saying he's worth 8 million and the like are dreaming I think. We paid 7 million for Dossena, who while being a bad example because he's really not very good, was supposed to be an attacking fullback. Well comparing Dossena even if he was very good to Glen Johnson is like comparing a Spitfire to an F16. If we want him we'll have to pay big money for him, and my guess is that whoever does is taking a gamble, but one which may pay off big style.

[JC_81]

Whenever you go in and pay big money for a player who is largely unproven, it is by defintition a gamble. My "17 million" was really just to stir the waters up a bit, and to emphasise that I really think this kid has something. Obviously I'd rather get him for 10 or 12, but if Spurs are looking then we may have to go higher, and if we want him I think he has a chance of being worth it.

The two things to consider are firstly do we want him, and secondly is he worth what is being asked?

On the first question I really like Arbeloa. I do tend to like the solid pro's who do a job for you every week, I even like Kuyt in truth it's more those who try and stifle any sensible debate him from a football sense who do my head in. Arby is a solid a pro as you could get, and he is a good player too. Do we desperately need to replace him? No. Are there other spots in the team in more urgent need of surgery? Yes. So why then?

Well (little sigh here because I know which way this is going to go), because we play Dirk on the right side of midfield, and because that has a huge impact upon the flow of the team, the cohesion, the rhythm etc etc, we probably do need a footballing full back who can compensate. Arby would be peachy playing behind Ronaldo, but behind Kuyt there is a sense that we are effectively lending the bus parkers the keys to the wheel clamps which they have stationed down the right side. Kuyt is obviously going to play for the forseeable, so perhaps something has to give and unfortunately, it may be Arby.

Now Johnson, what are you paying top dollar for? Well I was talking aboutn Insua a few days back and said that I doubted he had the tools to become an absolute World beater, and that I felt he was more likely to be a solid full back. What I meant by that is that he hasn't shown me so far that he's likely to a Danny Alves, a Patrice Evra or a Martin Skyrtel (just kidding). He's doesn't look massively pacey or tricky, obviously isn't going to arrive back post and head it in, nor does he have the cultured implement of an Aurelio. Good solid little player he is though.

In the case of Johnson though, although he is unproven on the biggest stages, he has all the clubs in the bag. He has pace, power, skill, can shoot and is decent in the air. Clearly going forward he has enough going for him to cause absolutely anybody a problem, whilst he is easily a good enough athlete to be able to bmb up and down the line all day long. He has a triack, knocks a great ball in and looks to me to be making that transition from being a boy into a man. By that, I mean that when it kickjs off he is big enough and daft enough to be in there dragging players apart, and hard enough to say to their hard ones "fecking behave yourself". Think the transition for Rio Ferdinand from gangly centre half who was prone to mistakes, into a proiper big fella who can handle himself as he is now. It happens for fellas in their mid twenties, and Johnson looks to me like he has matured both as a footballer and a person.

I think in a good team (of which we are one) he will score goals. I think he will make goals, cause goals, win matches. I think against the bus parkers, when it's locked up at 1-0 he's good enough to occasionally kick the doors in and get you the three points, a little like Evra does for Man UItd occasionally. He'll get beyond the play, he'll link it up, and he'll make Kuyts contribution more than the sum of it's parts.

Defensively he's good enough. His pace and power gets him out of most tight spots, and he's decent in the air. People saying he's worth 8 million and the like are dreaming I think. We paid 7 million for Dossena, who while being a bad example because he's really not very good, was supposed to be an attacking fullback. Well comparing Dossena even if he was very good to Glen Johnson is like comparing a Spitfire to an F16. If we want him we'll have to pay big money for him, and my gues sis that whoever does is taking a gamble, but one which may pay off big style.

A lot of decent points Mick.  But can he defend?

For my money he can't, and worryingly has mistakes in him.  Do you think even 10-12 million is reasonable for a full back who is suspect at defending??

[bigmick]

I think he defends well enough John to be honest, but at the highest level it's obviously unproven. Funnily enough, the very question of whether he can defend or not got me back thinking about a thread I was going to start a couple of weeks back. It was one of my philosophical points along the same lines of my "Champions League, how hard is it?" thread of a few years back. Broadly speaking, I have this theory that for the top teams defensive midfielders, solid defenders and the like are broadly becoming extinct. I haven't gone stark raving, bear with me John.

What I mean is given the nature of the Premiership and it being a win win win league, and given the fact that the vast majority of teams set up against the big guys not to lose, I think the need for solidity right accross the back four and through the centre of midfield is diminishing. That doesn't mean you don't pick defenders, but it is increasingly meaning that it's not enough for them all to be "solid".

Increasingly, defenders are impacting on games more in the oppositions area than they are in their own. People who are slightly worse from a defensive point of view are being tolerated, compensated for simply because they offer much more going forward. Ivanovic for Chelsea wouldn't be as good a defender as Boswinga, but he did put us out of the Champions League. Evra isn't the best left back defensively that I've seen, but he does get forward well, ditto Ashley Cole these days.

Anyway, that's another question entirely. What I'm basically saying is that from at least one full back slot, you need a bit of offensive oomph these days IMHO. Johnson provides it John in spades, and yes I do think he'll get by from a defensive point of view. I'd have him as a similar standard to Arbeloa defensively TBH.

[JC_81]

Interesting take on it, the point about defensive players being less important for the big clubs.  You could argue though that it was Essien's defensive job on Gerrard in the first leg against Chelsea that was perhaps even more important than Ivanovich's goals in eliminating us.  You could also argue that keeping the most clean sheets won United the league (we scored more than them over 38 games) and that the Ferdinand-Vidic partnership was key to that.

To be honest though, in terms of defensive midfielders and full backs, I agree you need a bit more going forward if you're in a top team.  You may prove to be right on Johnson, but for now we'll have to agree to disagree on his defensive capabilities and transfer value mate.  I have a suspicion we'll get to see who's right bacause I reckon Benitez will bid for him.

[Sabre]

If a paint a scenario of a totally dominated and controlled game in which we have been frustratingly dull in the last metres, then I think that people would find that scenario similar because I recall to be in that kind of game dozens of times in the last years. Games with little threat against us.

In that context, putting more emphasis on an attacking RB makes sense if we think of having a deep quality squad with good options.