Liverpool FC Forum

[metalhead]

Eds:

1. There is no Suarez player, there are players that are similar to Suarez, so a like to like meaning a similar type of player with enough quality that would fit our system, we didn't buy one like that, instead we spent 16m on Balotelli who is completely a different type of striker, that's not FSG's domain, questions should be asked to the committee. Sanchez would have been a perfect replacement, but he opted for Arsenal.

2. Don't be silly, Its harder to detect sarcasm on a football forum than in real life, you don't know me and I don't know you so don't personally assume that I can't detect sarcasm.

3. No they wouldn't, they want to make the club as attractive as possible, they can't do that if they don't see Liverpool winning trophies. John Henry didn't make his 1billion USD net worth just because he accepts a tidy or small profit. With the Red Sox they've made them a winning team and it will be the same issue with Liverpool, it needs more time because its football not baseball. The only financial implications we would have if FSG decides to take too many loans and we would go on doing what you're telling them to do spend 400m on players, which is IMPOSSIBLE with the resources at our disposal. If they are stabilizing us for a midtable club then the evidence of our revenues that you would see a constant revenue stream every season and the wages would be constant as well, but this evidence contradicts your assumption because each year there is a growth in revenues and the wages are increasing, it's not rocket science that they are not ''stabilizing'' the club in one position, they are GROWING this club, how can you deny the facts?

4. Ok, fair enough let's keep it at that.

5. Again, Coutinho, Sturridge, Suarez, Sakho, are all good players, so doesn't this point out that the policy is fine but the recruitment isn't?! Coutinho signed at 19 and he showed his class! Can't the recruitment team base their research on finding more players like Coutinho so we can all be happy??! It's the recruitment team's JOB to be competent and sign the RIGHT players, not the wrong ones like Balotelli. Rodgers wanted a leader in defense, he signed Lovren, it's his player not FSG's.

6. Ok

7. I also had my reservations about finishing in the top 4 this season but its not because of the owners, its because of the management who the owners hired. We all know Rodgers is still inexperienced to deal with this kind of season (having Champions League) but that's not our problem, it's the problem of the management and they are the ones who need to fix their mistakes and rally for next season. We might have finished 2nd last season because of Suarez and Sturridge but that also shows the commitment of the owners that they want the team to challenge for major honors.

8. Don't insult me, we are having a debate not a personal slagging match accusing each other's lack of comprehension skills or intelligence. Where is your evidence that I'm cherry picking the facts? I brought up LAST summer because we ended up above Chelsea yet they had a net spend of -0.8 and they are first while we are 5th. What does that tell you about our recruitment team?  http://bitterandblue.sbnation.com/2014/9/11/6101855/premier-league-transfer-spend-over-3-5-and-7-years , there is a table that shows our gross and net spend compared to other teams, Arsenal have spent the least and have the best net spend OVERALL, and they are always in top 4 every season, what does that mean? is it because their recruitment team is outperforming ours? The table that I've got is here http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2739255/Transfer-deadline-day-numbers-All-stats-facts-figures-need-know.html. Actually, Arsenal's net spend was 46m and ours was 36m. Yet, Arsenal spent the least amount of money compared to our 116m spent on players, it is relevant because once we had the money and we spent it on dosh, what corporate strategists like to call it inefficiency to use resources when it matters. Unlike you, I'm not someone who insults others on a football forum but if you compare our revenue streams with other clubs you can clearly understand WHY it is impossible to spend 50m on one player and give them higher wages, it's just like what Reg said, you need ENOUGH revenues in order to grow and cover your operating expenses and have enough to be able to flex your wage budget and sanction more deals for 50m on a player, it's that simple!

9. ok

10. We will see, and once we make more and more money and change our recruitment team with more competent scouts or install a competent DOF, we will have better chance of getting quality players and improve our on field performance.

[eds]

Metalhead

1. Couldn't agree more with what you said and that's why we shouldn't have sold Suarez to begin with. The owners, our execs + whoever is in charge of selling our players should have played hardball with Barcelona. If Sanchez was determined to join Arsenal, so be it. Suarez stays with us and Barcelona is down one player. But we went and sold him without having a proper replacement in line. Hoping that Sanchez would change his mind.  This is absolutely shambolic and the owners whether you like or not have a part to play in this nonsense because they would have had to approve the sale.

2. At least you are admitting it now, rather then deflecting. Good for you I respect you more for it.

3. This is fundamentally where we disagree. On the points of FSG making as much money off us as possible I don't actually disagree. But once again this is not the key point. Making money off us and being successful are not mutually exclusive is the key point. If they were I would back them completely. But they can at any stage sell us and walk away with a profit, irrespective of what that profit is. That's why I don't trust them because they haven't actually invested in our playing group and aren't going to be financially impacted if they don't. Instead they have a well oiled PR machine telling us all that the players and trophies will come over time with this approach. I don't buy it, especially after I quoted the amount of money Chelsea and City spent to build their multi-billion dollar squads and we are light years behind.

This is modern day football we are talking about if your revenue streams remain fairly constant you are actually in decline, because your expenditure and costs (just like our own in the last 5 years) keep increasing you are forced to generate more and more revenue. That's why your argument doesn't make any sense and that's why I still stand behind what I said that we are being stabilised to finish 5th or below each season. Until we actually start spending decent money on single player transfers we won't be catching up to the top 4 any time soon.

5. No it doesn't because you are cherry picking the obvious, which is only players that have been a success, what about the rest of them? There is a long list if you want me to go through them all. Compare the ratio of successful players to flops in the time under FSG and it is incredibly poor. Once again you seem to be fixated that this is our recruiting department and Rodger's fault when you are missing the obvious. Look at the players that Man City have brought in and Chelsea have brought in recently and compare their flops to ours. Hell even look at Manure's recent acquisitions. It doesn't compare and do you want to know why? Even if we were to take their recruiting departments, scouting network, Manager, etc we would still not buy as many successful players. Why? Because THEY ARE WILLING TO SPEND MORE MONEY ON EACH INDIVIDUAL PLAYER. This is backed up by their NET spend compared to ours. Rodgers signed Lovren because he did his best trying to buy a player with the money he was given. Chelsea and City can go out and spend that money on a CB that warms their bench.

7.  I'm not sure how I can actually get through to you on this point. The owners, as much as you like to paint the picture that they don't, are involved in this football club. They would have a way of wanting this football club run. That be it through a vision, a business plan, an overall strategy and/or recruiting the people that share this with them. The very people you are criticising are actually carrying out what the owners want to the best way that they see fit. We have actually already gone through one wave of sacking key people in our management, Commolli and co and this is the 2nd wave that seems to be on the verge of facing the chop. Isn't it time we started asking questions of the owners, their strategy, vision and actually questioning whether they are right for this football club? I don't want to sound arrogant but I'm dead set positive that if we got rid of Rodgers, fired the transfer committee and sacked Ayre it wouldn't actually change anything, because the new people coming in will continue following the same flawed mandate that the owners want to keep operating under. 

8. You keep asking for evidence and I keep providing it to you. It's not my fault you keep ignoring it. That is essentially what cherry picking is. You state facts that suit your opinion but remain closed off to what I am saying. You can't compare clubs and spend in each season isolated. That makes no sense at all. When you look at Chelsea's squad from last season and compare it to our own there wasn't much they needed to invest in because they didn't lose their most influential player and 70m asset like us.   On top of this they had spent much more money building their squad as compared to ours. Just look at their NET season beforehand. So obviously they are going to spend less money when they only need to top up on only 1 or 2 key players. I didn't mean to insult you but it is frustrating that you can't understand the massive chasm that exists between us and Chelsea or City. They spent massive amounts of money shaping their squads, created an uneven playing field.  Yet our owners think we will catch up to them through "moneyball" and youth.       

Finally you talk about Arsenal. Arsenal have had a better squad than ours for a number of years, hence why they have continually finished in the top 4 and we haven't. You can probably argue that we caught up to them last season with Suarez in our side, but before then they had a better team for a number of years (well since we had Alonso, Gerrard, Mascherano and Torres all in the same side). Your argument that they had a better recruiting team does make sense because we actually caught up to them last season with their inferior NET spend, because we were spending more money on players and we eventually had a better XI than them. But what happened we sold our best player and they went and NET spent $75m! That's why you saw the result on the weekend, it has NOTHING to do with their recruiting team, it has everything to do with MONEY. Which is my entire point.

Look if you feel I have insulted you I apologise but seeing as we are strangers I really don't know why you are taking it so personally. I guess we have different outlooks on life in that an anonymous stranger making fun of you on a forum means nothing and shouldn't. Reg enjoys his grandpa digs at me every opportunity he gets and I do as well right back at him and his incoherent ramblings. I'm not asking to spend 50m on one player if the money isn't there. That's what you think I am saying. All I have tried to do (by continually posting these long winded arguments) is that we don't have the right owner's and model to take us forward to compete with the big boys. I have backed this up with constant facts and evidence, but you choose to take the easy way out, like our friend Reginald and so many others on this forum by blaming scapegoats like Rodgers and the transfer committee. When they are gone, I'm sure we will be having the same argument in 3-4 year’s time when the next round of people fail miserably. Maybe then something might dawn on you, which is what I have been saying all along and why so many of us HAVE LOST THE FAITH.

[eds]

Eds, you're a gypsy fortune teller with the ability to see the future, I take my hat off mate. The bit your crystal balls consistently get wrong is that the primary concern of any business is to cover the overheads. LFC is not a social club and the Sterling episode puts us on the edge of the cliff whether we become a Man City / Chelsea style of club placing an even greater emphasis on the need to generate funds to cover spiralling costs. You cannot separate the business side from the football side. The better the players we buy and pay, the greater the urgency to grow the business side.

What you do with those funds is a different issue and that's where we're in agreement but don't shoot Metalhead for pointing out the obvious.

The problem is that you can't see that while we cover our "overheads" season in, season out we are always going to play catch-up to the top 4.

The underlying argument is that irrespective of Rodgers, the transfer committe or our scouting network we are clearly at a disadvantage to the other clubs. The "financial pacing" that you talk about is almost like Chelsea and Man City are at the precipice of crumbling and becoming bankrupt over night. Funny how this was being spouted about when the Russian took over 12 YEARS ago, but the scaremongering doesn't work any more seeing as how successful they have been since then and are still winning titles.

You lot seem to fixated on the fact that because we were almost run into the ground almost 4-5 years ago by our previous owners that we need to accept a model where conservative spending is the norm. Irrespecitve of the results it produces on the field.

Eds, the dire need for the new owners after taking over from those Yankee fools was to get the club on a sound financial footing and it appears they've done that so all credit to them - we're solid going forward.

Now... where I don't feel comfortable is going to the next stage and splashing 200 million to buy your dream players to win the league. Rodgers and the committee simply aren't to be trusted with that money.

Bring in Mourinho and give him the same money and I'm with you, let's put all our chips in and spank the monkey however Rodgers... hmmm... So I'm with you, let's go for it but if I was FSG I'd be telling you to be patient as the club hasn't demonstrated they can be trusted with that kind of money and responsibility.

I agree with you Reg I wouldn't give Rodgers and the transfer committee 200m, who would? 

The problem is that the owners won't be giving Rodgers, or whoever is in charge next season more than 20m-30m to spend let alone 200m. And yet still expect us to be in the top 4!

And that is why no credible experienced manager will come anywhere near us.      

[Reg]

'but you choose to take the easy way out, like our friend Reginald and so many others on this forum by blaming scapegoats like Rodgers and the transfer committee.'

I see your weekend has started early Eds. Metalhead and I have defended both the owners and the manager throughout, only questioning our transfer policy after lying down to Man Utd and Arsenal whereas you have let loose with both barrels at every opportunity over the weeks and months being being as rude as possible to any poster who disagrees with your tirades of pain. You insult everyone who has different views to yourself.

Anyway good weekend, await the next episode.

[Dundreamin is back]

As for FSG not giving Rodgers much money for next season, of which I agree. They done exactly the same to Kenny although on a smaller scale after the Carroll debacle. The difference being Kenny in his first full season won a trophy, reached a Final of another and ok not finishing high enough in Prem to satisfy FSG. But Rodgers gets us into the CL only to be totally embarrassed and ashamed in the group stage. I was cringing watching us being virtually the group's whipping boys. YES LFC the whipping boys of European football 2014/15. Well I know what outcome of them 2 outcomes I prefer

[jacdaniel]

As for FSG not giving Rodgers much money for next season, of which I agree. They done exactly the same to Kenny although on a smaller scale after the Carroll debacle. The difference being Kenny in his first full season won a trophy, reached a Final of another and ok not finishing high enough in Prem to satisfy FSG. But Rodgers gets us into the CL only to be totally embarrassed and ashamed in the group stage. I was cringing watching us being virtually the group's whipping boys. YES LFC the whipping boys of European football 2014/15. Well I know what outcome of them 2 outcomes I prefer

I wouldn't say whipping boys.  We finished 3rd in the group, not last.
We were narrowly defeated by Madrid at the Bernabeu.  Madrid are possibly the best side on the planet.
Basle pipped us to 2nd place. 

Im not saying it was a successful CL campaign but I hate constantly hearing about how we embarrassed ourselves.

[supersub]

As for FSG not giving Rodgers much money for next season, of which I agree. They done exactly the same to Kenny although on a smaller scale after the Carroll debacle. The difference being Kenny in his first full season won a trophy, reached a Final of another and ok not finishing high enough in Prem to satisfy FSG. But Rodgers gets us into the CL only to be totally embarrassed and ashamed in the group stage. I was cringing watching us being virtually the group's whipping boys. YES LFC the whipping boys of European football 2014/15. Well I know what outcome of them 2 outcomes I prefer

I wouldn't say whipping boys.  We finished 3rd in the group, not last.
We were narrowly defeated by Madrid at the Bernabeu.  Madrid are possibly the best side on the planet.
Basle pipped us to 2nd place. 

Im not saying it was a successful CL campaign but I hate constantly hearing about how we embarrassed ourselves.

It was a pathetic campaign ....yes we did embarrass ourselves and hopefully we will avoid the European debacle and get a better attempt at the league next season. With our limited resources and a manger with limited ability , I think it best we concentrate on the home front first without distraction.

[supersub]

i'm sure the couch potatoe fans won't be happy about that , but I'm the idiot who has to pay through the nose every season just watch the pathetic attempts at competing on all fronts

[red till i die!!]

As for FSG not giving Rodgers much money for next season, of which I agree. They done exactly the same to Kenny although on a smaller scale after the Carroll debacle. The difference being Kenny in his first full season won a trophy, reached a Final of another and ok not finishing high enough in Prem to satisfy FSG. But Rodgers gets us into the CL only to be totally embarrassed and ashamed in the group stage. I was cringing watching us being virtually the group's whipping boys. YES LFC the whipping boys of European football 2014/15. Well I know what outcome of them 2 outcomes I prefer

I wouldn't say whipping boys.  We finished 3rd in the group, not last.
We were narrowly defeated by Madrid at the Bernabeu.  Madrid are possibly the best side on the planet.
Basle pipped us to 2nd place. 

Im not saying it was a successful CL campaign but I hate constantly hearing about how we embarrassed ourselves.

It was a pathetic campaign ....yes we did embarrass ourselves and hopefully we will avoid the European debacle and get a better attempt at the league next season. With our limited resources and a manger with limited ability , I think it best we concentrate on the home front first without distraction.

Agree but if we win the FA cup its unavoidable.
What way does it work if Arsenal win it and make the CL ? Will the Europa spot go to the other finalists or to a spot in the league ?.

They have increased the prize fund for next year so that might make it attractive but they have to stop the CL clubs from entering at the later stages as that's what ruins it. As long as that continues to happen the competition has no credibility.

[Reg]

Just the small matter of beating Arsenal in the final who happened to batter us last week......

[LFC1990]

We played Arsenal on their patch with no Skrtel an injured Sturridge and a half assed Sterling

[RED BEERGOGGLES]

It was a pathetic campaign ....yes we did embarrass ourselves and hopefully we will avoid the European debacle and get a better attempt at the league next season. With our limited resources and a manger with limited ability , I think it best we concentrate on the home front first without distraction.

Just thought I would place that in bold mate ,as posters seem to dismiss our dipped toe in Europe as if it was a slight faux pas on the managers behalf ,and if by some
miracle we manage to shoehorn ourselves into the top five  next season it will be different. 

[Dundreamin is back]

When I started this topic I wondered to myself why do I put myself through this, why do I love the club so much that I cannot ever remember not supporting LFC. Then last night I was reminded one reason why. On MOTD they had the WBA v Leicester game on and WBA were celebrating Jeff Astle day. He is a icon to WBA supporters and the showed the goal he scored against the Blues.*i*e in the 1968 FA Cup Final.
Then a blast from the past hit me. On that Cup Final day I was 7 but I still vividly remember as it was yesterday. My Mum and Nan had gone shopping leaving me with my Grandad as I wanted to watch the match. In the days everybody watched the build up to the game for hours. I went to the shop and when I got back the team's were ready to walk out at Wembley. I said I wanted Everton to win. My Grandad said to me "WHAT?" I said to him that the cup would come to the City. My Grandad then took me to the front door and said "get out" so I sat on the doorstep distraught that I wasn't watch the match.

A while later my Mum and Nan returned they asked why I was there? I told them that my Grandad told me to get out. They must of thought I had been up to no good. Then I heard my Nan ask Grandad what I had done?My Grandad told my Mum "You and Jimmy (My Dad) need to sort him out wanting Everton to win the FA Cup that's not right"   So there you go one reason I became a avid Red

[andy c legs]

Great little story that.

Whoever the reds are playing, however difficult it has been and can be, we should not lose faith in them. Supporting another team with all your heart would be un-thinkable...

[The_Rock]

It was a pathetic campaign ....yes we did embarrass ourselves and hopefully we will avoid the European debacle and get a better attempt at the league next season. With our limited resources and a manger with limited ability , I think it best we concentrate on the home front first without distraction.

Just thought I would place that in bold mate ,as posters seem to dismiss our dipped toe in Europe as if it was a slight faux pas on the managers behalf ,and if by some
miracle we manage to shoehorn ourselves into the top five  next season it will be different. 

+ 1.