LOSING THE FAITH

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby Boocity » Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:20 pm

JC_81 » Mon Apr 06, 2015 7:24 am wrote:
parchpea » Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:16 am wrote:FSG purchased the club under the impression that FFP would be closely monitered and allow their company to catapult Liverpool to the top without spending huge amounts.

The Americans did not envisage that other clubs had already made plans to circumvent the rules, because being American they know it all, despite not even being able to distinguish a throw in from a corner kick.

Comolli was their first embarrasment in tandem with  Dalglish, then Hodgson which needs no words.

At this point they have a good manager but will not allow him to work freely by insisting on a committee to recruit players which has resulted in a catastrophic summer.

Turn on Fenway Sports Group nobody else, G&H wearing a different mask.



You are re-writing history there mate.

Hodgson was not hired by FSG.  One of FSG's first acts was to remove him and replace him with Dalglish as a stop-gap until they found a younger coach for the long term.

But I believe you are right re FSG banking on FFP being upheld and therefore creating a successful 'franchise' and a winning team without a ridiculous outlay.  In reality FFP was always going to be difficult to police and loopholes were always going to be found.

Look at Man City and Chelsea.  Massively smaller fanbases than us, surely a smaller turnover, yet they can hand out 200k per week contracts for fun and still operate within FFP rules??  They are clearly fiddling the books, but proving it must be hard.  City spent the guts of 30 mil on Bony despite 'restrictions' already in place for FFP breach - how does that happen?

Our best hope is that things even out over time.  City and Chelsea have very valuable squads due to money spent on them pre-FFP, therefore they can still sell to buy and maintain superstar squads for a few years yet.  We were at a disadvantage in having a very poor squad just as FFP was coming in and therefore massive outlays to overhaul the squad are clearly going to breach rules.  The Suarez money was our chance to catch up, but Moreno, Manquillo, Markovic, Balotelli and Lovren have been disasters to varying degrees.  A few of them might be better in their second season, but some won't.

All that said, we are still capable of challenging for top 4 as we have done this season.  But for a really poor start we could even have been in the title mix. 

I think with the right signings this summer we could kick on and with stadium redevelopment we would be moving in the right direction.

From a playing perspective my worry is that when I look at where our weaknesses are, it's the spine of the team.  We need a more reliable keeper, we need a good centre back, we need a dominant central midfielder and we need a first choice striker.  These players do not come cheap and the players bought are not guaranteed to be successes.  I would still advocate selling Sterling and reinvesting the money in these areas.  I'd also get rid of Balotelli and Lovren.  Gerrard, Toure and Johnson will likely be off the wage bill too, freeing up more funds.  With this degree of change we risk starting badly again next year if we have 4-5 new players to integrate, but it looks necessary.

Sorry i don't buy into the FFP argument, these are experienced and shrewd US businessmen we are talking about and it would be incredibly naive of them to think that with the introduction of FFP every club would live within their means and transfer fees and salaries would reduce. You see it every day in business, companies finding tax loop holes, all this anti-bribery legislation etc but companies will always find a way around these rules, why would FFP all of a sudden be any different.
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Postby ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:10 pm

I'm sure FSG made a comment once along the lines of if it wasn't for FFP they wouldn't have got involved in footy. JC 81 is right, FFP was certainly a major factor in their decision to buy us.
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Postby 7_Kewell » Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:12 pm

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Mon Apr 06, 2015 10:46 am wrote:
7_Kewell » Mon Apr 06, 2015 10:19 am wrote:I completely agree with Metalhead.

Our owners might not be perfect, but they have secured the long term future of the club and started to (finally) expand Anfield.

FSG don't pick the players, identify the targets or organise the first team tactics.

Likewise, I'd also disagree with the mad idea that 20m players are "cheap"


1. Deciding not to move away from Anfield is something I'll be eternally grateful to FSG for.

2. We discovered half way through the season that a computer program has more say about who we bring in than anyone.

3. £20m isn't anything to be sniffed at but let's face it the top teams are regularly spending £40m-£80m on players now, there's been about 20 players sold in that bracket and there will be another load this summer (Bale, Sterling etc)

You're right about the faults in our methods for identifying targets. I think this will be addressed in the summer, But let's not beat around the bush here, BR has the final say on who we sign.

However, 20million is no small fee and some posters on here are acting like Hicks and Gillett are back in charge, signing 2-3 million wasters, like Konchesky and Poulson. That's not the case. What's more, FSG are spending the money that comes in, and not all on youngsters, hence ALL of the Suarez cash was spent last summer on players aged from 19-32.

The problem here is in the dressing room. Has BR lost it? Are the players fed up with his methods? And, more importantly, has BR taken us as far as he can?
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Postby Thommo's perm » Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:54 pm

Lets not forget that we massively over achieved last season and it was foolish in the extreme to believe that we could repeat that without one of the worlds greatest strikers. We may have scored a hundred, but dont forget we conceded 50! I dont think the season is over by a long chalk and to use an oft repeated cliche, there are plenty of twists and turns to come before its over.
However I am concerned with the way the team is playing at the moment. I am quick to praise the manager, but I am also quick to ctiticise and I beleive that at this particular time he does deserve some criticism. How anyone could think that a team consisting of one of the possibly worst left backs we have ever had, plus a feeble midfielder alongside someone who has seen his better days some years ago could beat a rampant arsenal at the emirates is clearly delusional. Add on to this a self publicising, naive striker and a captain with no backbone and being played out of position, then you have a recipe for disaster. There is no doubt that the manager and the players need to man up right now and put any girlie squabbles behind them.
If they dont then we will have a dreadful and disgraceful ending to a season which promised, for some time at least, to be a definite step forward...
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Postby ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Mon Apr 06, 2015 5:00 pm

Let's face it Houllier was lambasted by the fans despite finishing second and winning about 6 trophies, Rafa was hounded out after getting to 2 CL finals, another semi and finishing second, Kenny was pilloried despite getting to 2 cup finals and I won't even mention the flak Hodgson took.
It doesn't matter who is in the mangers chair because as night follows day one thing that is absolutely certain is that our fans will turn on them no matter what they do.
The attitude of our fans towards our managers is give us miracles or GTFO
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Postby LFC1990 » Mon Apr 06, 2015 5:11 pm

good post yakka however Rodgers doesnt help himself out.
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Postby Boocity » Mon Apr 06, 2015 5:23 pm

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:10 pm wrote:I'm sure FSG made a comment once along the lines of if it wasn't for FFP they wouldn't have got involved in footy. JC 81 is right, FFP was certainly a major factor in their decision to buy us.

FFP will stop the flagrant abuse of money like what got Leeds into such a mess just like regulation in other areas of business are there to stop laws being broken, however, if you think that FSG believed FFP would stop mega rich owners from finding a way to subsidize their clubs then your very clearly mistaken
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Postby Thommo's perm » Mon Apr 06, 2015 5:51 pm

I am a little confused by peoples reaction to what Rodgers has said? What would people like him to say, that we will definitely finish in the top 4? I have seen many managers, including mourihno and wenger say publicly they were categorically not in with a chance of winning the league or a trophy, while trying their best privately to do just that. Were they being defeatist or maybe just lowering peoples expectations?
I wish he would talk less to the press, especially after they way theyve treated the club in the last few years, but to slag him for not saying we will overturn the points gap and finish in the top 4 seems a bit pathetic to me?
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Postby Kash_Mountain » Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:13 pm

Thommo's perm » Apr 6th, '15, 17:51 wrote:I am a little confused by peoples reaction to what Rodgers has said? What would people like him to say


That's the point, don't want him to say anything to the media because he is totally awful. Why even bother saying something like that in the first place and then topping it of with "it's going to be hard to attract top quality players now..............."  That is why the media love him, gives it to them on a golden plate. He is seen as cannon fodder by the Press and it's easy to why. Foot in mouth every time. Lessening the fans expectations already for next season by making excuses for his failures this season. He's made several promises to the owner' hence them providing loads of money to bring in appropriate players, except he didn't do that did he. To replace 1 players, he felt he had to go on a rebuilding programme, this says that he is totally not ready for LFC.
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Postby RED BEERGOGGLES » Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:16 pm

Thommo's perm » Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:51 pm wrote:I am a little confused by peoples reaction to what Rodgers has said? What would people like him to say, that we will definitely finish in the top 4? I have seen many managers, including mourihno and wenger say publicly they were categorically not in with a chance of winning the league or a trophy, while trying their best privately to do just that. Were they being defeatist or maybe just lowering peoples expectations?
I wish he would talk less to the press, especially after they way theyve treated the club in the last few years, but to slag him for not saying we will overturn the points gap and finish in the top 4 seems a bit pathetic to me?



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Postby jacdaniel » Mon Apr 06, 2015 11:26 pm

The worry after last season was that the expectations would simply increase to unrealistic levels and we are a victim of that this season.  Funnily enough... the opposite has happened with United.  Moyes finished so low that Van Gaal has spent HUGE money, got knocked out of both cups quick enough and United will only have just over 40 games played this season.  Now Van Gaal is seen as some kind of messiah... funny game.

Did Brendan have much money to spend last summer?  In theory the answer is yes.  But we had to lose our star player to have that money.  And with European football and cup runs it was clear we needed a FAR bigger squad.  We badly needed to fill gaps.  Our team of last season would have collapsed already this season with the number of games played.

Suarez chose to leave.
Sturridge got injured by Hodgson.
Our captain's mind was focused on last season's domestic and International failures along with picking his next club.
Our young star player is a bit of a t.wat who doesn't seem to value the club very highly.

In hindsight, it looks to me like we were destined to fail this year.  We can easily blame Brendan but we should accept that our squad last year was too small, our expectations too large and our star players minds were elsewhere.

Its only the fans who care these days.  Players like Sterling are becoming the norm.
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Postby Thommo's perm » Mon Apr 06, 2015 11:33 pm

RED BEERGOGGLES wrote:
Thommo's perm » Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:51 pm wrote:I am a little confused by peoples reaction to what Rodgers has said? What would people like him to say, that we will definitely finish in the top 4? I have seen many managers, including mourihno and wenger say publicly they were categorically not in with a chance of winning the league or a trophy, while trying their best privately to do just that. Were they being defeatist or maybe just lowering peoples expectations?
I wish he would talk less to the press, especially after they way theyve treated the club in the last few years, but to slag him for not saying we will overturn the points gap and finish in the top 4 seems a bit pathetic to me?





Please do
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Postby eds » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:19 am

metalhead » Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:48 am wrote:
eds » Sun Apr 05, 2015 11:04 pm wrote:
metalhead » Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:56 am wrote:I don't see why fans blame the owners, I don't get it ???

How can anyone blame them? They are not the ones who squandered millions on poor signings, nor they are the ones choosing the tactics and choosing the players during match days.

Under FSG we are out of a financial mess, our revenues grew each year and we have recorded a profit since god knows when (2007 I think). In addition to all of this we are underway in expanding our stadium.

So how y'all can blame FSG?


Thanks for putting on the voice recorder on FSG's PR machine but we don't want to hear any excuses right now.

Do you seriously not get the fact that the owners have DICTATED that our strategy is to buy young players and fill in the holes with cheap statistical over-achieving players, hence the formation of this infamous "transfer committee"?

Are you that deluded thinking its someone else's fault we are in this mess to begin with? Who then, Rodgers? Has Rodgers made up the transfer strategy all on this own?

Actually you are probably one of those special "few" that think everything is fine finishing mid-table AGAIN this season  :suspect:

Maybe I have to translate all of this into American for you, "so y'all understands what I am sayin"


If you don't want to hear excuses either don't reply/ignore or have a constructive debate instead of resorting to silly comments such as ''few that think everything is fine finishing mid table again this season''.  :no

Can you dispute the clear cut FACTS that off the field we have recorded a profit since 2007, our revenues grew since 2011 and the club is out of threat of financial distress (Let me put it in english for you: risk of bankruptcy) because the new owners lowered the debts by paying off some of the debts. Can you dispute that the owners also BACKED the manager with money, so you blame them for spending 117m on players? You spend 20m on Dejan Lovren because he is a ''cheap statistical overachieving player''? 20m for that something cheap? 20m for Markovic? You really think he is another moneyball player? Rodgers AND the transfer committee dictate the transfers, they are given the funds by the owners for them to use and choose the players, yes FSG might prefer younger over older players, but they don't dictate how the transfers are going, that's why they set up a transfer committee to work with the manager in the recruitment of players. Also tell me why did we sign Lambert? He is no spring chicken is he? Why are we considering offering contracts to the likes of Glen Johnson?


Ahh reverting back to the same old recorder.

When did Liverpool FC become about profits? When did this club care more about their profit and loss statement compared to their on-field performance? Get your head out of the clouds, we all support a club NOT A BUSINESS. In the end we support this great club because we want them to win trophies on the field, nothing more, nothing less. The last two f**ksticks did such a "stellar" job that some of you lunatics think that running a club sensibly is something to shout from the rooftops about. Get over it, it's EXPECTED that they do this! And let's make one thing clear they did this because they stand to make a massive profit when they end up selling this club. Their agenda is different to ours. They aren't like us and will one day move on, we the soul of this club will NEVER MOVE ON.

Lovren and Markovic were both "moneyball" players whether you want to accept this or not. One was bought on the back of having a great season with Southampton which I'm sure would have yielded a s**tload of statistical data on the premise to buy him. The other is a player that if he kicks on the owners stand to make a tidy profit selling him on in a few seasons time all due to his age. Otherwise the loss will be minimal as we can still sell him at a decent price tag.

20m is nothing to sneeze at, but in this day and age it's nothing compared to what the richest clubs in Europe are paying for top, top players. My argument all along has been that we have been selling players like Suarez for 63m (or 70m depending on who you believe), Torres for 50m, Alonso for 30m and never replacing them with quality players that WOULD COST THIS AMOUNT OF MONEY. Our biggest spend in our entire history has been for a 35m pony-tailed dud. And yet there is this delusion that we will compete with these sides, where this mentality comes from I don't understand? 

Rodgers and the transfer committee don't dictate the transfers. Our owners demanding a ROI on our players are what dictates our transfer policy. What drives ROI? Youth. Rodgers and the transfer committee go out with the limited money they are given and then try and get the best players they can. Because promising young players aren't cheap they aren't left with too much to spend so then need to try and get players like Lambert and Toure to fill in the gaps. This is why we have seen so many horrendous acquisitions over the last three years, which is arguably the worst in the club's history. Because of this ROI is driving our strategy, not the actual premise of buying quality and winning trophies.  :laugh:  And we will continue to do this unless the owners decide to spend real dollars on top individuals or they decide to sell the club.

I know that the only thing you read in the previous paragraph was "limited money". How can 117m be limited money? Sorry to burst your bubble but the total NET SPEND this club has spent on total players hovers around the 25-27m mark each season under FSG. You like your FACTS, argue that sunshine! When you look at how poor our squad was under the previous regime and the amount of money that needed to be invested on players, like Chelsea spent in their first two seasons under the Russian and City spent in their first two seasons under the Sheiks, we have gone absolutely nowhere. Also when you consider that United, City, Chelsea and even Arsenal now are spending this amount on just one player, it doesn't take a genius to see how far behind we are slipping with this ridiculous notion of buying over-priced youth.  :glare:

That's the reason we have imploded as a club this season, you can blame our inept and inexperienced manager all you want, but the underlying reason why we have bought so much dross in and are underperforming is because of our deluded owners wanting to make money over winning trophies. I mean you even summarised it so neatly when you said this "Can you dispute the clear cut FACTS that off the field we have recorded a profit since 2007, our revenues grew since 2011" not realising what this actually means from a football point of view.  :laugh:
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Postby ethanr » Tue Apr 07, 2015 5:19 am

metalhead » Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:48 am wrote:
eds » Sun Apr 05, 2015 11:04 pm wrote:
metalhead » Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:56 am wrote:I don't see why fans blame the owners, I don't get it ???

How can anyone blame them? They are not the ones who squandered millions on poor signings, nor they are the ones choosing the tactics and choosing the players during match days.

Under FSG we are out of a financial mess, our revenues grew each year and we have recorded a profit since god knows when (2007 I think). In addition to all of this we are underway in expanding our stadium.

So how y'all can blame FSG?


Thanks for putting on the voice recorder on FSG's PR machine but we don't want to hear any excuses right now.

Do you seriously not get the fact that the owners have DICTATED that our strategy is to buy young players and fill in the holes with cheap statistical over-achieving players, hence the formation of this infamous "transfer committee"?

Are you that deluded thinking its someone else's fault we are in this mess to begin with? Who then, Rodgers? Has Rodgers made up the transfer strategy all on this own?

Actually you are probably one of those special "few" that think everything is fine finishing mid-table AGAIN this season  :suspect:

Maybe I have to translate all of this into American for you, "so y'all understands what I am sayin"


If you don't want to hear excuses either don't reply/ignore or have a constructive debate instead of resorting to silly comments such as ''few that think everything is fine finishing mid table again this season''.  :no

Can you dispute the clear cut FACTS that off the field we have recorded a profit since 2007, our revenues grew since 2011 and the club is out of threat of financial distress (Let me put it in english for you: risk of bankruptcy) because the new owners lowered the debts by paying off some of the debts. Can you dispute that the owners also BACKED the manager with money, so you blame them for spending 117m on players? You spend 20m on Dejan Lovren because he is a ''cheap statistical overachieving player''? 20m for that something cheap? 20m for Markovic? You really think he is another moneyball player? Rodgers AND the transfer committee dictate the transfers, they are given the funds by the owners for them to use and choose the players, yes FSG might prefer younger over older players, but they don't dictate how the transfers are going, that's why they set up a transfer committee to work with the manager in the recruitment of players. Also tell me why did we sign Lambert? He is no spring chicken is he? Why are we considering offering contracts to the likes of Glen Johnson?



Metalhead.. Just stop. Stop trying to use logic, and then stop backing your logic up with actual facts. Other people clearly know things as fact because they've recently had a chat with a friend who's cousin is neighbors with somebody deeply embedded within the LFC operations. You have no right to use actual facts when these other people clearly have the real inside information on who makes the decisions.

-The majority of these said posters presenting assumptions/opinions as facts, so they are facts and anybody saying otherwise is incorrect. 
-Many of the forementioned are actually directly contradicting other "facts" they've stated on other threads, more likely and specifically one about a certain manager who's name starts with a "B" and ends with a "rendan Rogers", but those other posts were written on different days of the week, so it is acceptable.
- You clearly have a bias towards Americans, as the location on your profile so boldly states, so you aren't allowed to back them because of the obvious conflict of interest (I have the same problem any time I speak highly of Brad Jones, as my profile location obviously shows a bias towards Australia).

Just give it up MH. You're obviously wrong you stupid American apologist. You probably live in f*cking California.
DESPITE THE FACT I LIVE IN CALIFORNIA...
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Postby Reg » Tue Apr 07, 2015 7:06 am

Ethan, only Rafa knew the 'facts' mate, no one else.

Eds, I suggest you increase the dosage a bit until the pain goes away.

1. The relevance of profits: we're being run in a sustainable manner. FFP is being observed. LFC can make a strong politic point to UEFA and FA behind closed doors that our model is the way forward and not Citeh's or Chelsea's. That you can buy players and rebuild a stadium and still show commecially sucessful numbers. That LFC made a profit last year is massively important.

2. Interesting that FSG were talking about salary caps, I'd forgotten about that. Salary caps won't come in until those who feed this disease, ie Sky reduce their sponsorship/tv rights money. Whilst that income is still increasing, clubs will continue to abuse the system with immunity. UEFA/FIFA are shown to be gutless monkeys across many areas and this is just one more example.

3. Overpaying for youngsters is not moneyball but normal business. A preference to bring in a young but still overpaid players as opposed to known more expensive players is a choice, not moneyball. Paying 20m for Moreno example is top, top dollar. Even if he does a solid job for 3 seasons his value will not rise above 20m so how is that moneyball?

4. The reason we imploded this season (IMHO) is because we lack leadership on the field (Souness, Kenny, Emlyn where are you?) and we didn't replace Suarez. When we sold Keegan, we bought Kenny etc.. Bob must be quietly shaking his head....

Our failure in the past 5-6 years has been to spend our money wisely. The scouting system hasn't produced the goods for years - why not? That's the first analysis we need to do, did the scouts find the lads but the club failed to act, or did the scouts simply not find the names? Where are those lads today who the scouts recommended and we didn't act on etc..?

Some folks like arguing for the sake of it, it's not so complicated really, run your business well and reinvest wisely and you will be successful. Run it badly and fail to invest wisely and you'll end up a cropper.
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