Kenny Departs

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby Thommo's perm » Thu May 03, 2012 1:20 pm

jacdaniel » Thu May 03, 2012 12:00 pm wrote:
Roger Red Hat » Thu May 03, 2012 11:40 am wrote:i'm not sure mate really but those players were in good form before they came here


Thats true.  Suppose its a big step up coming to Liverpool.  Like Roy Hodgson doing a decent job at small clubs but when a big job comes along he can't handle it. 

Sometimes transfers just don't work out though.  Look at Morientes.


You "suppose" its a big step?
Fu'ck me its probably THE biggest step that any of these players wil ever make. It has to mess your head up, especially if the transfer fee is massive.
People conveniently choose to disregard this in their criticism, probably because they will never have any empathy with the player.
"A £35 million player should hit the ground running and get at least 20 goals in their first season" maybe, if he was the finished product and a seasoned campaigner. Lifes not that simple though is it?
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Postby RedAnt » Thu May 03, 2012 1:28 pm

Thommo's perm » Thu May 03, 2012 12:20 pm wrote: Lifes not that simple though is it?
:no


No mate, it certainly isn't. And that's what bugs me about some posters. It feels very Football Managerish to see things in such black and white simplicty. In reality these players are people with hearts and minds and feelings and emotions. They're not robots, dictated by facts, stats and figures. Money dosen't guarantee performance. Never has. Dunno why people have suddenly decided it should.
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Postby lakes10 » Thu May 03, 2012 4:05 pm

devaney » Thu May 03, 2012 10:10 am wrote:Lakes - Rafa spent net £70m - a bit over £11m net on average for each of his 6 years of managing LFC. He bought 59 players for £232m and sold 72 players for £162m. If I'm really generous and credit him with the sale of Torres then he actually spent next to nothing.

How much do you seriously think we could get for Adam,Carroll,Henderson and Downing? Those players cost £80m. Could you currently get more than £40m for them? Kenny's only real financial success to date in the transfer market has been Suarez. The jury is out on Coates and Enrique is not the player he was when he first arrived. Rafa make some co.ck ups over 6 years which every manager does. Kenny (and Comolli) appear to have made some monumental mistakes in a relatively short time. How you actually can consider this as a positive attempt to develop a title winning team is completely beyond my understanding. 10 points out of the last 40 must tell you something. And please don't bring up bad luck or the woodwork!



Net spend means nothing if you end up with a team  that has seen 76 players come and still  dont have a bench that was any good.
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Postby Greavesie » Thu May 03, 2012 4:15 pm

give me a choice and I'd sharp go back to the rafa days, I'd love to see what he could have done with the money Kenny's spent

That aside tho, Kenny shouldn't leave
All round the fields of Anfield Road
Where once we watched the King Kenny play (and could he play!)
Stevie Heighway on the wing
We had dreams and songs to sing
'Bout the glory, round the Fields of Anfield Road

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Postby tubby » Thu May 03, 2012 4:29 pm

lakes10 » Thu May 03, 2012 3:05 pm wrote:
devaney » Thu May 03, 2012 10:10 am wrote:Lakes - Rafa spent net £70m - a bit over £11m net on average for each of his 6 years of managing LFC. He bought 59 players for £232m and sold 72 players for £162m. If I'm really generous and credit him with the sale of Torres then he actually spent next to nothing.

How much do you seriously think we could get for Adam,Carroll,Henderson and Downing? Those players cost £80m. Could you currently get more than £40m for them? Kenny's only real financial success to date in the transfer market has been Suarez. The jury is out on Coates and Enrique is not the player he was when he first arrived. Rafa make some co.ck ups over 6 years which every manager does. Kenny (and Comolli) appear to have made some monumental mistakes in a relatively short time. How you actually can consider this as a positive attempt to develop a title winning team is completely beyond my understanding. 10 points out of the last 40 must tell you something. And please don't bring up bad luck or the woodwork!



Net spend means nothing if you end up with a team  that has seen 76 players come and still  dont have a bench that was any good.


Yes because we are so much better of now. Kenny has spent in 1 year near almost half of Rafa spent in total in 5 years. What's your explanation for that?
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Postby maguskwt » Thu May 03, 2012 4:31 pm

lakes10 » Thu May 03, 2012 3:05 pm wrote:
devaney » Thu May 03, 2012 10:10 am wrote:Lakes - Rafa spent net £70m - a bit over £11m net on average for each of his 6 years of managing LFC. He bought 59 players for £232m and sold 72 players for £162m. If I'm really generous and credit him with the sale of Torres then he actually spent next to nothing.

How much do you seriously think we could get for Adam,Carroll,Henderson and Downing? Those players cost £80m. Could you currently get more than £40m for them? Kenny's only real financial success to date in the transfer market has been Suarez. The jury is out on Coates and Enrique is not the player he was when he first arrived. Rafa make some co.ck ups over 6 years which every manager does. Kenny (and Comolli) appear to have made some monumental mistakes in a relatively short time. How you actually can consider this as a positive attempt to develop a title winning team is completely beyond my understanding. 10 points out of the last 40 must tell you something. And please don't bring up bad luck or the woodwork!



Net spend means nothing if you end up with a team  that has seen 76 players come and still  dont have a bench that was any good.


:oh:  you are repeating Sh*t and talking bollox again... so what if he bought 76 players? He had to buy from the bargain basement... and he shipped them out if they are not good enough... it's his way of trying to build a competitive team when we can't compete with Chelsea and the mancs in terms of pure spending power. You talk bollox by saying rafa built a CL team... and yet we were in top 4 4 times out of 6. Broke the point total 2 times. Title challenge in 2008-2009. And yet you don't have any rebuttal on these facts and just keep repeating "but but but he brought in 76 players"...  :glare:   :laugh:

Like someone already mentioned he brought in Torres, Masherano, Reina, Agger, Skrtle, Riera, Johnson, Lucas, Kuyt, Benayoun and Maxi... all of them contributed to the team. All of them created value for the team.

yeah compare that to Carroll, Downing, Adam and Henderson now...  :laugh:

Oh btw that Judas that Rafa bought from Athletico? May have become a judas in the end, but scored loads of goals for us and also gave us a 30 million profit...
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Postby Kukilon » Thu May 03, 2012 4:47 pm

maguskwt » Thu May 03, 2012 3:31 pm wrote:
lakes10 » Thu May 03, 2012 3:05 pm wrote:
devaney » Thu May 03, 2012 10:10 am wrote:Lakes - Rafa spent net £70m - a bit over £11m net on average for each of his 6 years of managing LFC. He bought 59 players for £232m and sold 72 players for £162m. If I'm really generous and credit him with the sale of Torres then he actually spent next to nothing.

How much do you seriously think we could get for Adam,Carroll,Henderson and Downing? Those players cost £80m. Could you currently get more than £40m for them? Kenny's only real financial success to date in the transfer market has been Suarez. The jury is out on Coates and Enrique is not the player he was when he first arrived. Rafa make some co.ck ups over 6 years which every manager does. Kenny (and Comolli) appear to have made some monumental mistakes in a relatively short time. How you actually can consider this as a positive attempt to develop a title winning team is completely beyond my understanding. 10 points out of the last 40 must tell you something. And please don't bring up bad luck or the woodwork!



Net spend means nothing if you end up with a team  that has seen 76 players come and still  dont have a bench that was any good.


:oh:  you are repeating Sh*t and talking bollox again... so what if he bought 76 players? He had to buy from the bargain basement... and he shipped them out if they are not good enough... it's his way of trying to build a competitive team when we can't compete with Chelsea and the mancs in terms of pure spending power. You talk bollox by saying rafa built a CL team... and yet we were in top 4 4 times out of 6. Broke the point total 2 times. Title challenge in 2008-2009. And yet you don't have any rebuttal on these facts and just keep repeating "but but but he brought in 76 players"...  :glare:   :laugh:

Like someone already mentioned he brought in Torres, Masherano, Reina, Agger, Skrtle, Riera, Johnson, Lucas, Kuyt, Benayoun and Maxi... all of them contributed to the team. All of them created value for the team.

yeah compare that to Carroll, Downing, Adam and Henderson now...  :laugh:

Oh btw that Judas that Rafa bought from Athletico? May have become a judas in the end, but scored loads of goals for us and also gave us a 30 million profit...


Amen to that.
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Postby banana(real one) » Thu May 03, 2012 5:08 pm

maguskwt » Thu May 03, 2012 3:31 pm wrote:
lakes10 » Thu May 03, 2012 3:05 pm wrote:
devaney » Thu May 03, 2012 10:10 am wrote:Lakes - Rafa spent net £70m - a bit over £11m net on average for each of his 6 years of managing LFC. He bought 59 players for £232m and sold 72 players for £162m. If I'm really generous and credit him with the sale of Torres then he actually spent next to nothing.

How much do you seriously think we could get for Adam,Carroll,Henderson and Downing? Those players cost £80m. Could you currently get more than £40m for them? Kenny's only real financial success to date in the transfer market has been Suarez. The jury is out on Coates and Enrique is not the player he was when he first arrived. Rafa make some co.ck ups over 6 years which every manager does. Kenny (and Comolli) appear to have made some monumental mistakes in a relatively short time. How you actually can consider this as a positive attempt to develop a title winning team is completely beyond my understanding. 10 points out of the last 40 must tell you something. And please don't bring up bad luck or the woodwork!



Net spend means nothing if you end up with a team  that has seen 76 players come and still  dont have a bench that was any good.


:oh:  you are repeating Sh*t and talking bollox again... so what if he bought 76 players? He had to buy from the bargain basement... and he shipped them out if they are not good enough... it's his way of trying to build a competitive team when we can't compete with Chelsea and the mancs in terms of pure spending power. You talk bollox by saying rafa built a CL team... and yet we were in top 4 4 times out of 6. Broke the point total 2 times. Title challenge in 2008-2009. And yet you don't have any rebuttal on these facts and just keep repeating "but but but he brought in 76 players"...  :glare:   :laugh:

Like someone already mentioned he brought in Torres, Masherano, Reina, Agger, Skrtle, Riera, Johnson, Lucas, Kuyt, Benayoun and Maxi... all of them contributed to the team. All of them created value for the team.

yeah compare that to Carroll, Downing, Adam and Henderson now...  :laugh:

Oh btw that Judas that Rafa bought from Athletico? May have become a judas in the end, but scored loads of goals for us and also gave us a 30 million profit...



The tide is turning man. Rafa's successors have made him look like the Messiah, just like his predecessors did before that.

If we take 1990 - 2012 - 22 years og football then Rafa's second third, fourth and fifth year is miles ahead of any other of those years. Those are the only years Liverpool really really were among the 5 best clubs in the world. When he came Liverpool were about number 50 in europe, and now we are about 60 I suppose. Well going from being among the top 5 year in year out with Rafa to this is bad.

Still Rafa gets a lot of blame. For what? For turning the club into title challengers? For winning 4-0 against Madrid. If we played Real now or Barcelona we would hardly be allowed to touch the ball, let alone put together a string of three or four passes.
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Postby Simari » Thu May 03, 2012 7:23 pm

How often do you hear people say 'You don't know a good thing till it's gone'.
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Postby parchpea » Thu May 03, 2012 7:52 pm

Club went down the pan after the Rafa rant when the wheels came off and we ended up second.

Ever since that moment we have seen a steady decline overall with the odd highlight to keep
us going.

Year on year we are being passed by other clubs which started with Chelsea, then City, then Spurs
and now Newcastle have gone by us. We just cant keep up with the pace of change.

Trouble is to stop the rot you have to be smart and get decisions at EVERY level bang on and we
find it hard to get anything right. Hardly a year goes by without a poor appointment, a sacking, and
the place is littered with failed footballers we cant get shut of. Over and over the same thing, year
in and year out.

At some point we have to get it right under Dalglish or someone else and frankly I couldnt care less,
who,just get the fecking thing sorted and the show on the road.

You can build a good team in 1 year if you sign the right players, if you have the right manager, and
everyone at the club is pulling in the same direction, but all we do is ***** about trying to people
please and fanny about behind the scenes begging for stadium investors and only come up with a TV
Show and £50m deficit, with an alleged £35m for stadium 'drawings'. No doubt that money has found
its way to G & H via the back door.

We need to shape up and sort this out in the summer and the thing moving. Get your ***** over here from
Boston,stay a while, make the big calls and put Liverpool back in the game. No more flannel
and patience messages,no more Boston BS, do the job and give us all our Liverpool back. And and I mean
the real Liverpool,tough at home and on the road, week in week out, with pride in that shirt and top footballers
on the field.
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Postby devaney » Thu May 03, 2012 8:09 pm

lakes10 » Thu May 03, 2012 3:05 pm wrote:
devaney » Thu May 03, 2012 10:10 am wrote:Lakes - Rafa spent net £70m - a bit over £11m net on average for each of his 6 years of managing LFC. He bought 59 players for £232m and sold 72 players for £162m. If I'm really generous and credit him with the sale of Torres then he actually spent next to nothing.

How much do you seriously think we could get for Adam,Carroll,Henderson and Downing? Those players cost £80m. Could you currently get more than £40m for them? Kenny's only real financial success to date in the transfer market has been Suarez. The jury is out on Coates and Enrique is not the player he was when he first arrived. Rafa make some co.ck ups over 6 years which every manager does. Kenny (and Comolli) appear to have made some monumental mistakes in a relatively short time. How you actually can consider this as a positive attempt to develop a title winning team is completely beyond my understanding. 10 points out of the last 40 must tell you something. And please don't bring up bad luck or the woodwork!



Net spend means nothing if you end up with a team  that has seen 76 players come and still  dont have a bench that was any good.


Obviously the 10 points out of 49 doesn't tell you anything and you are content to wildly go along and convince yourself that Kenny is developing a title winnining side. If we carry on the way we are the only title Kenny will win in the next few years will be the Championship! Wake up and smell the coffee.
Net Spend Over The Last 5 Years 20/21 to 24/25  (10 years
are in brackets 15/16 to 24/25 )
LFC €300m (€420m)
Everton +€33m (€211m)
Arsenal €557m (€853m)
Spurs €571m (€684m)
Chelsea €945m (€1051m)
Man City €370m (€1038m)
Man United €687m (€1240m)
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Postby Cool Hand Luke » Thu May 03, 2012 10:46 pm

When Kenny was put in temporary charge last January I thought it was the wrong move by the club. I didn’t see him as the man to realise the clubs vision of getting us back competing at the top tables of English and European football. Kenny hadn’t been involved with the running of a football club for over a decade and his last few jobs had ended badly. I feared he would be out of touch as football, and specifically the premier league, had evolved so much over the last 10-15 years.

The problem with bringing Kenny in on a temporary basis is that he only needed to do a marginally better job than Hodgson (not particularly difficult) and the fans would put pressure on the board to give him the job on a permanent basis. Even if the board wanted to go with another man it would have been very difficult for that manager as the fans would still have Kenny in the forefront of their minds. A few bad results and the fans would have turned.

As it turned out, our results were fantastic under Kenny’s management last year and it forced me to question my original stance. Results were good, football was good and the fans united. Good times and Kenny was at the centre of it. He was given the job permanently and began working with Comolli to reshape the squad. At the end of the summer I convinced myself that if not inspired by the incoming transfers, I was at least content. With the squad we had I thought we would put in a strong challenge for a top 4 finish but would fall a few points short as Chelsea, Arsenal and Spurs had more match winners than us. At the very least I expected us to be in the race going into the final 5 games of the season and end the season with a very strong top 6 finish. But things have gone horribly wrong. Too be honest when I look out how poor Arsenal and Chelsea were in the first half of the season, and how poor Tottenham have been recently, 4th spot was there for the taking.

I could understand if we had a shaky start to the season followed by a strong finish but we were shaky at the beginning of the season and we have followed that up with a shambolic second half of the season. Over the last 17 games we have only won 4 and lost 10, only Wolves have been worse than us over the past 5 months. A run of a few games were we pick up a few poor results is totally understandable and expected, but I’m sorry, a manager on top of things would simply never allow 5 months of terrible form. With 2 games left of the season we are 16 points off 4th spot and 15 points off the relegation zone.

Whether you look at net spend or not, the truth is that we have had plenty of money available to reshape the squad, regardless of whether a large proportion of money has come from outgoing transfers. Kenny decided that bringing in British players who had spent most of the careers outside of the top 10 of English football was the way to catch up with the clubs ahead of us. But the truth is that those clubs we are trying to catch wouldn’t look twice at the likes of Carroll and Adam, but probably had an eye on top talent from around the world like Suarez. People laugh at Spurs for trying to sign players that top clubs are after but they signed Modric under the noses of many of the top clubs in Europe and went head to head with Man Utd with Bale. If we are to catch up with the clubs ahead of us we need to show a similarly gutsy approach like we did with Suarez, rather than the old school strategy we used last summer.

Winning trophies is elementary to football clubs and we should all enjoy the runs we have had this season and be thankful to Kenny for them. The cup campaigns have been excellent and it’s nice to get one, and possibly another, in the cabinet after a difficult few years. But the true measure of progress, or lack of it, is the league. Winning the League and FA Cups are like one night stands in that they give you great joy at the time but you know that really you’re looking for something else in the long term.

When things go so horribly wrong in the league people start looking closely at every questionable area. Did we predominately buy players already playing in the English game because Kenny doesn’t have much knowledge/interest of football outside of the British leagues? When Reina got sent off against Newcastle was Gerrard deciding who would play in which position and waving Kenny off the pitch a sign that the manager doesn’t command the authority required? Is Kenny’s mid season admission that he doesn’t know Henderson’s best position an indication that he hasn’t bought to a specific plan or system? Is it sign that Kenny is out of touch with modern day tactics that Gerrard continues to play as part of a central two despite most Liverpool and England managers realising it doesn’t get the best of our him or the team?

One thing that will count against Kenny in any end of season assessment is his unnecessarily aggressive and combative approach to the media. At times it has made me physically cringe and I just can’t understand it. I think it’s another sign that Kenny can’t cope with the requirements of the modern game. I actually think the media gave him an extended honeymoon period because of his history, but he has crumbled as soon as the faintest pressure has been applied. Too be honest he is has been looking a little rough and not in the best of health over the past 6 months so I hope he is O.K. Also I’m not sure why he decided to slate the reserve team he put out against Fulham when he has defended the first team that has lost on so many occasions when the match actually meant something.

The squad doesn’t need to be revolutionised, just a few high quality additions and better management. I think the 14 out and 9 in rumours are nonsense personally. We should be looking to keep most of the squad for next season but sign a couple of players who are of much better quality than the ones we already have. The players we bought last summer filled in gaps in our squad but barley improved the first team. Priorities must be a striker for Suarez to play off of, a wide midfielder with pace who can dribble, create and score, and a central midfielder to play alongside Lucus to dictate our attacking play from deep positions.

I just don’t think that Kenny is the man who can identify those players or bring the sort of progress we want over the next 3-5 years. And judging by his body language in the past few weeks I think John Henry has already told him that they will be looking to appoint a new man for next season. Knowing the way Kenny conducts himself and how much love he has for the club he won’t be kicking up a fuss and may even have offered his resignation. Some of the comments made about Kenny by fans have been pretty shameful. People shouldn’t be so quick to forget what this man did for this club as a player and as a manager, and everything he did and continues to do concerning Hillsborough. Just because you don’t think he is the right man for the job there is no need to personally insult him. He is a legend. And more than that, he is one of us. But I don’t think people should be castigated for coming on a forum and stating that they don’t think he is the right man for the job…….as long as they are respectful.

So if FSG decide that Kenny is not going to be our new manager next season how do the club go about appointing the right successor? The problem is that no one within FSG actually knows much about football and Ian Ayre is supposedly only responsible for the commercial side of the club. So who do FSG consult? Kenny? His last recommendation was Roy Hodgson so it might not be the way to go. FSG thought Comolli was the footballing oracle but sacked him a year later. Who knows how they would go about it.

From the domestic scene people have suggested Alan Pardew, Brendan Rodgers, Paul Lambert and Roberto Martinez but none of them have the experience to step into the Liverpool job. From all of those Lambert is probably the one to keep an eye on for the future but both Norwich and Swansea are the best clubs for Lambert and Rodgers to be at right now.

People say we haven’t got a chance of attracting a top manager but I disagree. We are still one of the biggest names in world football and there is more than a job on offer, this is a project to re-establish this great club at the top end of European football. If we are going to go after a top tier manager the names of Jose Mourinho, Carlo Ancelotti and Ottmar Hitzfeld spring to mind. If you had asked 5 years ago I would have said Mourinho. But despite being a top manager I’m just not sure he’s the right fit for us culturally but the other two would be good candidates.

If we’re looking for up and coming managers around Europe who have already tasted success and play an attractive style of football, Rudi Garcia (Lille), Frank de Boer (Ajax) and Jurgen Klopp (Dortmund) are all worth a look. Out of those 3 I think de Boer is the most interesting as I’m a fan of the route he took and what he’s has achieved so far. He spent a couple of years working on the staff at Ajax and Holland before taking the manager’s job at Ajax, where he has led them to consecutive titles after 7 years without one. Ajax also put up a strong showing in a difficult Champions League group (Real Madrid and Lyon) and only failed to qualify for the knockout stages on goal difference. They followed that up with a more than respectable display in the Europa League against Man Utd. There are loads of options to explore but it would be the board’s job to find the right man.

Regardless of the result on Saturday my personal opinion is that Kenny isn’t the right man to lead our mission to re-establish ourselves as one of the top clubs in Europe. Even though my opinion was formed much earlier in the season I have kept it to myself. It’s quite an emotive issue and I understand why a lot of posters have decided to keep their feelings to themselves and others have defended him to the hilt on the forum, and will do so regardless of questionable results, signings and decisions. If Kenny is not to be our manager next year he deserves great thanks and respect for taking on the job during a difficult time of transition and bringing us a trophy or two.
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Postby RED BEERGOGGLES » Thu May 03, 2012 11:10 pm

Boxscarf » Wed May 02, 2012 10:40 am wrote:I should be looking forward to this FA Cup final, it's a final, of one of the greatest cup competitions in football - yet I just want it to be over, I won't be able to watch it as I'm working and a small part of me is a delighted, because the way we're playing and the way Chelsea are playing, I can only see one outcome on Saturday and it doesn't bode well for us.


Its fans like you that make me so so proud.
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Postby Reg » Thu May 03, 2012 11:17 pm

RED BEERGOGGLES » Fri May 04, 2012 6:10 am wrote:
Boxscarf » Wed May 02, 2012 10:40 am wrote:I should be looking forward to this FA Cup final, it's a final, of one of the greatest cup competitions in football - yet I just want it to be over, I won't be able to watch it as I'm working and a small part of me is a delighted, because the way we're playing and the way Chelsea are playing, I can only see one outcome on Saturday and it doesn't bode well for us.


Its fans like you that make me so so proud.


Don't be daft RBG, everyone's entitled to an opinion and the lad makes his in a sensible way. You're getting too sensitive.
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Postby ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Thu May 03, 2012 11:17 pm

to be fair to kenny he has had a lot of bad luck this season, gerrard wasnt fit until christmas and lucas who had been arguably our most consistent player over the previous 2 seasons got a terrible injury just as he was in the form of his life, then our best player gets banned for 9 games and the club gets caught up in the biggest media storm about race in sport in this country since the early 1980`s. over the past 18 months kenny has also had to deal with torres going and also deal with the fact that gerrard and carragher arent the forces they once were.
lets not forget as well that the club wasnt exactly in the best of shape when he took over, he had to pick up a lot of pieces.
but it is a fact that we just havent been good enough in the league this season, i wont say our league form has been a disaster because this club knows only too well the true meaning of that word but put it this way it hasnt been very f*****g good.
if he does manage to win 2 trophies in a season then despite our horrendous league form the season will be seen as a success, in a few years when people look back they wont remember the poor league campaign just as the 65 sides terrible league form never gets mentioned.
i will say this though the league form has been so bad it puts pressure on kenny at the start of next season, 2 trophies or not if we lose 4 out of our first 6 games or something next august / september then he will be under severe pressure.
i dont actually think the cup final on saturday is that big of a game for kenny, win or lose i think he`ll start next season as our manager, the big games for kenny are the league games at the start of next season, it`s those games not the cup final that will define his career as liverpool manager imo.
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