Liverpool FC Forum

Benny The Noon wrote:

heimdall wrote:

Benny The Noon wrote:

SouthCoastShankly wrote:What pisses me off. Is currently we have one decent striker who is half fit yet at some point over the last 4 seasons we have had the following -

Bellamy
Keane
Crouch
Cisse

Any one of those sold strikers is better that the backup we have now.

Yes and every single one of those was sold for a reason that has  been stated many times .

Michael -

Bellamy is currently playing on the left flank for Citeh and has done a number of times - he also played on the flanks for Norwich,Newcastle,Celtic,Blackburn and West Ham so its pretty easing to see that he is versatile but the problem he had with us - he didnt score enough goals -7 in 30 odd games i think it was and he was sold to help fund the arrival of torres.

Other players played out of position have been done on the odd occasion when a needs must there is only really one player who has supposedly played out of position on a regualr basis and that is kuyt and we all know the results from that

Sami - was offered a new contract to stay on at the club but wanted a fresh challenge so yes it would of been lovely to keep him to be our 3rd/4th choice cb but he wanted more .

As for players arriving and leaving they have all done so for a reason - Ie not good enough or wanting to leave the club themselves .

Whatever the reason for them being sold the fact is that they weren't replaced and that actually is Rafa's fault.

We only have Torres as a striker, neither Babel, N'Gog or Kuyt are anywhere near good enough to be a striker in a top 4 club in the prem, actually Babel and Wash are just not good enough, end of.

Still narrow minded about Ngog i see - i suggest you go watch some recent games of him playing for us - namely leeds,arsenal and the goals he has scored .

the lad has played 18 times for us and has scored 6 goals in that period - one more and thats the same as bellamy scored for us in 30 games for us despite the lad still learning his trade .

We replaced Bellamy with Torres - who would you rather have

Crouch went and replaced him with Keane and from what we are led to believe a striker was to be signed during the summer but funds where withdrawn hence the stop of the voronin transfer .

No need for insults are there? We simply have a difference of opinion, I think Wash is and you think he's as good as Bellamy, I'll let other people decide who's right or wrong.

milou wrote:

bigmick wrote:

LFC2007 wrote:I can't help but wonder how Sami would have helped if he'd still been here. If ever we needed an experienced, reliable and calm presence at the back it would be this season. Leverkusen are sitting top of the Bundesliga right now too with the fewest goals conceded - he must have had a strong hand in that.

Mate there's no "wonder" about it, and it highlights a much forgotten part of being a manager. Is Hyppia a better player than the Greek bloke? Feck me he is in a different stratosphere, and we let Sami go on a free and paid a couple of mill' for the Greek. Its not even as if the new fella is a young up and comer who will develop, he is probably as good now as he'll ever be.

It's oft repeated on here that Rafa had much dross to replace on arrival, and he did, but there has been far too much revolving door IMHO. Making it at a big club is hard enough purely from a football sense, but at Liverpool players have too often in the past had to come to terms not just with the pressure of expectation, but also to come to terms with a selection policy which has at best been baffling and at worst been daft. Players are signed for good money, often shunted out of position, played sporadically and on the face of it offered little support and encouragement.

We often discuss the nonsense of the keane situation on here and rightly so (anybody reckon we couldn't do with him at the club as of now?) but there are many others. Craig Bellamy continues to light up the Premiership at Man City, and I can't help thinking that the flirtations with him playing on either flank and then not at all can't have done wonders for his confidence and demeanor. He had a wonder season for Blackburn before we signed him, flopped with us, played really well at West Ham and now looks like one of the best players in the league at City.

Too often we have replaced good players with others who are prepared to accept the methodology, but who aren't as good a player. Sissoko for Lucas was a poor swap IMHO and there are numerous others.

As I say it's an aspect of management which nobody gets right every time, but my guess is you have to get it right more often than we do. People are quick to talk about the transfer situation where "fecking Parry " missed out on targets. It's worth remembering that had he moved a bit quicker, we'd have replaced Xabi Alonso (BEFORE LAST SEASON) with Gareth Barry. We could no doubt have added that one to the list had it come off.

It has been a while but I never really stopped reading. Went away bcos couldn't stand having good discussions "drowned" in all the silly one-liners & petty exchanges - pages after pages. I will see how about this time round.. :P

Anyway, anybody who thinks our current problem is not related to money must be deluding yourselves (I am not referring to you Mick). Just look at Chelsea and Man City who had the dough to spend big.. See what they can achieve almost instantly? Enough said.

Didn't we (the yanks included) also identify the problem of our less-than-maximized stadium capacity? What happened now? Project stopped indefinitely bcos of lack of funds. Mind you, it means we are collecting MILLIONS less than the likes of Man Utd & Arsenal for EVERY home match. Multiple by the no of years.. You do the sums.

And I have not heard of any club that CANNOT sack someone bcos it has no money to pay-off the manager! Never ever!

So money is a f'ucking real & obvious underlying problem we now have in our club. FACT

But could rafa have done better given the smaller budget to work with? Sure.. he should have. Some of his transfers are really bad (keanegate being the most obvious one).. but I would argue that he found some gems along the way too.

What bothers most of us is the now blatant fact that he should have kept Bellamy, Alonso, Crouch, Cisse, Sissoko, Garcia, Arbeloa, Keane, etc. Even the obvious flops like Morientes & Pennant seem better bet than some of our current players!

Surely even an idiot knows they are better than most of what we have now.. let alone a top notch manager like Rafa?! If you are gunning for titles & trophies, on a long term rebuilding plan - SURELY u buy carefully and keep majority of them along the way? Then why would you (as meticulous & calculative as Rafa is known to be) buy a player one year only to move him on 2 years or sometime even 1 year later?!

Sure.. some of them wanted to leave. But I think most are "shipped out" to free up funds to buy more expensive & presumably better players.. In other words, there is simply no money to get Torres if we still have Bellamy.. and bcos money already spent on Torres, we must get Voronin bcos he is free!

It would be equivalent for Man Utd to having to sell Fletcher and maybe even Carrick just to fund the purchase of Owen Hargraves (who is now perpetually injured). Or selling Tevez BEFORE berbatov can come in. Or selling Ronaldo before they could buy Nani & Anderson. Now tell me what trophies Man Utd would have won in the past 3 seasons?!

So we are now left with a very strong first 11 (most people will admit it is a title-winning team) but absolutely no depth. And when luck plays a fool on us with more than half of our first teamers out injured/unfit/off form.. we are f'ucking screwed!

Just imagine hypothetically, what IF the glazers bought us but G&H bought Man Utd instead? Would we have a better squad now? Would we still have Bellamy, Couch, Garcia, etc to step in when we need them to? Would we have won no 19 having gone so close last season with torres & gerrard out injured most of the time?

Don't get me wrong here.. I think Rafa sometimes made a fool out of of his selections & tactics.. but can you really blame him for "prioritizing" on UCL? An early exit will spell even more trouble for his job security and a club which in financial ruin.

By the way, I am as mad as anyone about our recent results. I actually think a regime change maybe better for the club at this point (King Kenny WILL take over if that happens! He loves LFC too much not to at least be the care-taker) but I am just giving a real perspective of the big picture here.

heimdall wrote:We've spent more money than everyone else except Manure and Chelsea in recent years, FACT.

Read and digest nice and slowly and hopefully you might be able to see its not just black and white -


In order to try and dispell a few media fuelled myths that sections of our fanbase seem to have swollowed; here's the full list of players he's signed since he's been at the club (please read the summary below):

2004/05

£2m - Josemi: peanuts and was moved on in a swap for Kromkamp 18 months later
£1.5m - Antonio Nunez: part of the Michael Owen deal and filled a gap for a while. Peanuts.
£10.7m - Xabi Alonso: Massive success and sold for £30m+ in the summer when he wanted to leave
£6m - Luis Garcia: Massive success and sold to Athletico Madrid for £4m
Free - Pelligrino: Stop gap that allowed us to rest Sami for league games, benefitting us massively in Istanbul. Now on the coaching staff.
£6.3m - Fernando Morientes: Pretty much everyone made up when we signed him, top class, but never settled. Sold for £3m to Valencia.
£1m - Scott Carson: One the most highly rated young keepers around. Lost out through injury and signing of Reina when Dudek left the club. Sold for £3.25m.

Total bought: £27.5m

Free - Marcus Babbel: Released to Stuttgart at the end of his career.
£2.5m - Danny Murphy: Xabi Alonso signed to fill the role Murphy had in the side
£8.5m - Michael Owen: Wouldn't sign a new contract and sold before he left on a free. He's done nothing since that is a masterstroke with hindsight.
Free - Stephane Henchoz: Released to Celtic at the end of his career

Total sold: £11m

A total of £16.5m net spend in his first year at the club, with the vast majority of that being spent on Xabi Alonso.

2004/05 net spend: £16.5m

2005/06

£240,000 - Antonio Barragan: Kid for the future. Sold for £675,000 to Deportivo a year later.
Free - Boudewijn Zenden: Signed for nothing and released for nothing. Did a job for us.
£6m - Pepe Reina: In the top 3 or 4 keepers in the world now and still young. One of Rafa's best signings.
£5.6m - Momo Sissoko: Brilliant for a few years, had that eye injury and sold to Juventus when his form dipped for £8.2m. Replaced by Mascherano.
£7m - Peter Crouch: One signing I did question but proved to be a great bit of business. Turned him from a laughing stock into an international. Sold for £11m.
Unkown - Miki Roque: Kid bought for peanuts. Sold again for an unknown amount.
£150,000 - Jack Hobbs: Highly rated 16yr old signed from Lincoln. Didn't progress as hoped and sold to Leicester for a reported £1.5m, although figure not confirmed.
£190,000 Besian Idrizaj: No idea who he is
£1.5m - Mark Gonzales: Cheap player to provide back up for the left wing. Sold for £3.5m to Real Betis.
Exchange - Paul Anderson: Swapped for John Welsh. Sold for £250,000.
Exchange - Jan Kromkamp: Swapped for Josemi. Later sold for £1.75m
£5.8m - Daniel Agger: Blighted by injuries but potentially top class and great signing for the money.
£250,000 - David Martin: Young reserve keeper
Free - Robbie Fowler: Pay as you play deal and no risk involved. Scored a few goals. Released in the summer.

Total bought: £26.73

Free - Vladimir Smicer: Out of contract and released. Played a small part in Istanbul.
£3.5m - El Hadji Diouf: The best £3.5m Rafa has ever recieved.
Free - Pellegrino: Filled the gap in the last 5 months of the previous season, not good enough and released.
£2m - Alou Diarra: Sold for £2m. One of Houllier's buys.
£2m - Antonio Nunez: Bought for £1.5m and now sold for £2m when didn't work out.
£6.5m - Milan Baros: A Houllier signing sold at a profit. He's done nothing since.
Exchange - John Welsh: Swapped for Paul Anderson
Exchange - Josemi: Swapped for Kronkamp.

Total sold: £14m

2005/06 net spend: £12.73m
2006/07

£6m - Craig Bellamy: Good signing and later sold for £7.5m to fund Torres deal.
£2m - Gabriel Palletta: Played a few league cup games, not good enough and sold for £1.2m
Free - Fabio Aurelio: Very injury prone but a good player when fit. Great signing for nothing.
£6.7m - Jermaine Pennant: Second choice after missing out on Alves. Ran his contract down and released. Attitude stank.
£9m - Dirk Kuyt: Has his critics, but has been brilliant for the money. 15 goals last season from wide and vital to the way we play. Ultimate pro. Great signing.
£200,000 - Nabil El Zhar: Few cameos last season and improving. Injured now. Promising still. Peanuts.
£750,000 - Astrit Ajdarevic: No idea who he is, and released on a free to Leicester.
Loan - Daniele Padelli: Reserve keeper, made one appearance and never seen again.
Undisclosed - Jordy Brouwer: Young reserve.
£2.5m - Alvaro Arbeloa: Bargain signing, great service for a few years and sold for £3.5m when running his contract down.
Loan - Javier Mascherano: Rescued from West Ham, now one of the best defensive midfielders in the world and will probably be sold to Barca this summer for a massive profit. Paid £18.6m for him a year later at end of loan deal.

Total bought: £27.15m

£200,000 - Zak Whitbread: Youngster
Undisclosed - Bruno Cheyrou: Houllier flopped, sold for a reported £1.5m.
£3m - Fernando Morientes: Didn't work out. Cut his losses.
Free - Didi Hamann: Great servant, released at the end of his career
£675,000 - Antonio Barragan: Paid £240,000 for him.
£2m - Djimi Traore: Houllier signing and daylight robbery getting £2m for him
£500,000 - Neil Mellor: Signed as a kid and did a job for a while. Not good enough and released.
£1.75m - Jan Kromkamp: Nunez bought for £2m, swapped for him, who then sold for £1.75m. Stop gaps at minimal expense.
£525,000 - Darren Potter: Acadamy lad, not good enough and robbery getting that much for him.
£1.5m - Steven Warnock: Probably sold to cheap and looks a mistake with hindsight. Good squad player.
Free - Salif Diao: The clearout of Houllier's flops continues.

Total sold: £10.15m

2006/07 net spend: £17m

2007/08


£5m - Lucas Leiva: Brazilian player of the year when signed. Could still go either way but a lot to prove.
Undisclosed - Krisztian Nemeth: Promising youngster currently out on loan in Athens.
£270,000 - Mikel San Jose Dominguez: Youngester plays in the reserves.
£1.8m - Sebastian Leto: Left winger signing but refused a work permit. Sold for £3m.
£20.2m - Fernando Torres: Bargain of the century
Free - Andriy Voronin: Free transfer to strengthen the squad. Plays well in Germany, garbage over here.
£5m - Yossi Benayoun: Took a while to settle but now a key player. Superb signing and an absolute bargain.
£11.5m - Ryan Babel: Highly rated dutch international. Absolute waste of space. Bad signing on reflection, but nobody knew how he'd turn out. Still got potential but he can't be arsed.
Undisclosed - Charles Itandje: Back up keeper signed for peanuts. Now released.
£1.3m - Emiliano Insua: Youngster who is now a full Argentinian international and massive potential. Bargain.
£6.5m - Martin Skrtel: Been off form this season so far, but brilliant last year and a good signing for the money.
£18.6m - Javier Mascherano: Completion of loan deal

Total bought: £70.7m

£2.7m – Florent Simana-Pongolle: Houllier youngster sold wanting first team football.
£100,000 – Daniel O’Donnell: Kid sold
Free – Jerzy Dudek: Released at end of contract
Free - Zenden: Released at end of contract
Free – Robbie Fowler: Released at end of contract
£4m – Luis Garcia: Wanted to return to Spain. Great service.
£6m – Djibril Cisse: Houllier signing sold to part fund Torres deal.
£7.5m – Craig Bellamy: Sold at profit to part fund Torres deal
£3.5m – Mark Gonzales: Signed for £1.5m and sold when didn’t work out.
£1.2m – Gabriel Palletta: Bought for £2m but never worked out. Young defender.
£3.5m – Chris Kirkland: Houllier signing. Injury prone and wanted first team football.
£8.2m – Momo Sissoko: Great signing, good service, sold when lost his form at a profit.

Total sold: £36.7m

2007/08 net spend: £34m

2008/09

Free – Philip Degen: Garbage, but free.
£7m - Andrea Dossena: Italian international left back. Hasn’t settled. Bad signing.
£3.5m – Diego Cavalieri: Reserve keeper. Only played league cup games so far.
£1.5m – David N’gog: Young French striker. Promising.
£19m – Robbie Keane: Everyone made up when we signed him. Didn’t work out and sold back to Spurs for £16m.
£8m - Albert Riera: Spanish international. Started well but jury still out.

Total bought: £39m

£4m – John Arne Riise: Good servant but form tailed off. Snapped their hands off at £4m.
Free – Harry Kewell: Harry who?
Undisclosed – Anthony Le Tallec: Houllier youngster finally released. Fee not known.
£11m – Peter Crouch: Laughing stock bought for £7m. Great signing. Wanted first team football.
£2.25m – Danny Guthrie: Youngster from Acadamy thought not good enough.
£3.25m – Scott Carson: Injury prone and Reina now first choice. Sold at profit.
Undisclosed – Steve Finnan: Sold for a fee believed to be £1m
£16m – Robbie Keane: Didn’t work out.
Undisclosed – Jack Hobbs: Young defender that didn’t progress. Sold for believed to £1.5m.

Total sold: £36.5m

2008/09 net spend: £2.5m


2009/10

£17.5m – Glen Johnson: Big fee, but has been brilliant so far.
£17.1m - Alberto Aquilani: Injured so far but meant to be a class act. Highly rated in Italy.
£2m – Sotirios Kyrgiakos: Last minute signing to fill Hyypia’s shoes. Only money we had to spend.
£160,000 – Daniel Ayala: Young defender, played a few times this season and looked promising.

Total bought: £36.76m

£250,000 – Paul Anderson: Youngster that didn’t progess.
Free – Jermaine Pennant: Out of contract. Poor signing.
Free – Miki Roque: No idea who he is. Bought for peanuts.
£3m – Sebastian Leto: Signed for £1.8m but didn’t get a work permit. Had to sell.
£3.5m – Alvaro Arbeloa: Wanted to leave and out of contract in the summer.
£30m – Xabi Alonso: Wanted to leave. Bought for £10.7m. Great signing.

Total sold: £36.75m

2009/10 net spend: £10,000


Total Players Bought: £228,976,000
Total Players Sold: £145,100,000

Total Net Spend: £83,876,000


So, that’s a total spend of just over £83m in 5 years at the club. An average of £16.6m a year.

The vast majority of his signings have been sold at profit, or if still at the club, are worth a lot more than we paid for them. Exceptions being Babel and Dossena, but we’ll still get decent fees for them when sold as they’re full internationals.

A lot of the signings above have been stepping stones in rebuilding the squad, gradually improving it by replacing players with better ones. Our league positions over the past 5 years and the improvement in our league positions and points totals show the progression.

2004/05: Finished 5th – 58 pts
2005/06: Finished 3rd – 82 pts
2006/07: Finished 3rd – 68 pts
2007/08: Finished 4th – 76 pts
2008/09: Finished 2nd – 86 pts

Is it any coincidence that the progression seems to have stopped this summer? Look at the transfer activity above for this year and it might explain why.

We have a wage bill that is the 5th highest in the league. We can’t afford to pay players £70,000 to be sat on the bench like United and Chelsea can.

Rafa Benitez’ record with signings at the top end of the market is nothing short of brilliant. Robbie Keane being the only flop, but he was sold 6 months later and only a small financial hit taken on that mistake. Rick Parry agreed the fee for buying him in the first place, and common knowledge Rafa wasn’t happy with it; feeling it was far too high.

Where has this myth come from that he’s wasted money on players? Have a look through the lists above and try to point them out. There isn’t many.

The ones that haven’t worked out he’s moved on, and not very often has he made a financial loss on them.

The squad is now worth a hell of a lot more than the one he inherited, and that £83m net spend over 5 years is easily offset by the increased value of the squad. He’d recoup nearly all of that through the sale of Torres alone!

He’s worked absolute wonders with the money he’s had to spend. Then take into account the massive amounts of money he’s self generated by reaching the latter stages of the CL every season. Two final appearances, one win. That £83m he’s spent he’s earned the right to spend.

And when comparing it to what United have spent in the same period is flawed, as they already had a title winning squad and all the foundations in place. They weren’t rebuilding from scratch like we were. It also doesn’t take into account their massive wage bill.

When comparing to Chelsea, they spent all their money before Rafa came to the club and just topping up an already established squad.

Man City have spent more than double in the past 12 months than Rafa Benitez has in his 5 year reign.

Do some people still want to get rid of him? If so, you’ve been listening to Martin Tyler's Monkey and the hairy-handed halfwit for too much and unable to look at the facts yourself to form an opinion.

Every manager makes tactical mistakes. Every manager makes mistakes in the transfer market. Despite what the press seem to think; Rafael Benitez appears to make less mistakes than most.

We’re expected to win the league and European Cup on a budget and wage bill that is entitled to finish 4th or 5th in the league. We’ve been overachieving under Rafael Benitez, not underachieving.

I’m not even going to mention the environment he’s working in under them two clowns.

You’ll only miss him when he’s gone….

Benny The Noon wrote:Whoa please explain where i said he is as good as bellamy ?


There is a difference of opinion and then there is failing to see whats in front of your face - cant believe you had the gaul to suggest that finish against Man Utd was simple and then fail to back up statements like "he only scores tap ins" when the truth is the last two where far from tap ins.

heimdall wrote:

Benny The Noon wrote:Whoa please explain where i said he is as good as bellamy ?


There is a difference of opinion and then there is failing to see whats in front of your face - cant believe you had the gaul to suggest that finish against Man Utd was simple and then fail to back up statements like "he only scores tap ins" when the truth is the last two where far from tap ins.

Erm wasn't Wash one on one with Van der Sar, any striker who misses in that circumstance, and don't forget that VDS did get his hand to the shot, should be fecking sacked. I have not seen any great movement or vision from N'Gog and the goals he has scored up to now have been fairly simple tap ins, certainly nothing exciting.

you were comparing how many goals he had scored compared to Bellamy, if that isn't a direct comparison then I'm not quite sure what is?

heimdall wrote:I read that before sheep or whatever your avitar is, and all it does is prove that the owners have backed him in the transfer market, what is your point?

Giggling giggling , The owners have backed him in the transfer market , now im laughing me head off  

An judge you wonder why i got upset with some fans on the phone ins your answer is right there mate,  People are not looking at the bigger picture , there looking at a 7 inch screen an in there eyes there seeing 32 inch in hd

Benny The Noon wrote:Stolen from another thread and think its very at home on this thread



21 wins from 55 League games? Not good enough
by Jason Darby |
Tuesday, November 3rd, 2009

Damn right it isn’t.  The media are howling for the boss to go – ‘fans’ are saying we’ve never had a worse manager – former players who have managerial experience limited to their kids Sunday team are up in arms.

It’s time for the manager to go and go now. ‘Sack the boss!’

Fortunately – it never happened. You see – twitter, email, websites, forums and 24 hour ‘we need a story right now’ sports TV channels and media didn’t exist back in the autumn of 1981 when a dysfunctioning Liverpool side – packed to the rafters with (what we look back at) quality players endured a thoroughly miserable spell spanning two seasons.  Bob Paisley wasn’t sacked and went on to win the title that season and the following season.

Had Liverpool’s great manager Bob Paisley been under similar circumstances then today – then the media would have been insisting his team was full of internationals like Dalglish and Rush that had lost their focus.  They would have said Paisley didn’t care about the league anymore and was focusing on Europe.  Ian Rush who had recently signed for the reds at the start of Liverpool’s poor league forum would have been labelled a ‘waste of space’ and the media pundits would have been lining up saying how much we missed ‘Emlyn Alonso’.

Let’s fast forward 28 years and the media are attempting, and in some cases succeeding in, whipping some sections of Liverpool’s support in to a disturbing frenzy. (For the record – Rafa’s Liverpool have won 35 of their last 55 league games).

There can be no question that Liverpool’s start to the season has been stuttering.  The same team that landed a record points haul last season and same close is arguably the same as last year – however in recent weeks the reds have been rocked by a horrific injury list – the likes of which I can’t remember at Anfield since Graeme Souness used to begin every Liverpool training session with an hour-long run blindfolded through the woods.

Tomorrow we face Lyon.  No doubt this would be a tough test for a Liverpool first choice XI but I doubt any Premier League club would get a result with 6 or 7 of their best players out injured or struggling with injury. Yet if the result does not go our way – then the media will probably whip some people over the edge.

The Champions League is a fantastic tournament but anyone who believes it is Liverpool’s primary focus is on another planet.  I don’t think it is, most Liverpool fans don’t think it is and despite what the anti-Liverpool media and world class managers like Ronnie Whelan say – Rafa doesn’t think it is.

In fact probably the only imbeciles who do rank the Champions League more highly than the Premier League are Hicks and Gillett.  Why? Because it’s all about the money.  Liverpool’s debt situation is such that the owners value it above all others.  Pressure will be placed on Rafa to risk players that we all know should be given time to focus on Monday’s Birmingham game.

Two years ago we asked Is Rafa the Right man for Liverpool?  84% of supporters said Yes.

Two days ago we asked the same question to get a feel for the current mood.  The result? 82.5% of fans believe Rafa is the right man for the reds.

So amongst all the panic and media frenzy whipped up by those with other interests to serve – just remember that most of you reading this are in the overwhelming majority.  The silent majority.  It’s about time the silent majority made a little bit more noise.

Benny The Noon wrote:We are Liverpool - We have always been and always will be like it or not .