Liverpool FC Forum

by **maguskwt** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:15 am

Dazzer wrote:Since i can't post in the poll I like to add I did make one pre manc game for the manc game and it got deleted as for poll being useless If its so useless why so many people vote on them ? Plus it was by request I said don't shoot the maker as I was asked to make it by more then 1 memeber.

wow so some members did ask you personally to create a Rafa poll...

wow... this must be some special poll that only Dazzer can create... and I thought we already had a poll on Rafa? Well it explains that the poll was not based on quantifiable options but words that the rest of us cannot express... a special poll indeed... :laugh:

by **Lando_Griffin** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:25 am

Dazzer wrote:Since i can't post in the poll I like to add I did make one pre manc game for the manc game and it got deleted as for poll being useless If its so useless why so many people vote on them ? Plus it was by request I said don't shoot the maker as I was asked to make it by more then 1 memeber.

You're a real Martyr, aren't you?
:no

by **Lando_Griffin** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:26 am

maguskwt wrote:
Dazzer wrote:Since i can't post in the poll I like to add I did make one pre manc game for the manc game and it got deleted as for poll being useless If its so useless why so many people vote on them ? Plus it was by request I said don't shoot the maker as I was asked to make it by more then 1 memeber.

wow so some members did ask you personally to create a Rafa poll...

wow... this must be some special poll that only Dazzer can create... and I thought we already had a poll on Rafa? Well it explains that the poll was not based on quantifiable options but words that the rest of us cannot express... a special poll indeed...

Or more to the point, the other already showed a massive pro-Rafa balance, and that would never do...

by **Dazzer** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:30 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:
maguskwt wrote:
Dazzer wrote:Since i can't post in the poll I like to add I did make one pre manc game for the manc game and it got deleted as for poll being useless If its so useless why so many people vote on them ? Plus it was by request I said don't shoot the maker as I was asked to make it by more then 1 memeber.

wow so some members did ask you personally to create a Rafa poll...

wow... this must be some special poll that only Dazzer can create... and I thought we already had a poll on Rafa? Well it explains that the poll was not based on quantifiable options but words that the rest of us cannot express... a special poll indeed...

Or more to the point, the other already showed a massive pro-Rafa balance, and that would never do...

I was gonna say something but then I just thought Meh.

by **Dazzer** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:34 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:
Dazzer wrote:Since i can't post in the poll I like to add I did make one pre manc game for the manc game and it got deleted as for poll being useless If its so useless why so many people vote on them ? Plus it was by request I said don't shoot the maker as I was asked to make it by more then 1 memeber.

You're a real Martyr, aren't you?

Quess that depends on if you mean it in the Christianity , Judaism , Islam , Hinduism , Bahá'í Faith , Sikhism meaning of the word lando can you elaborate ?

by **Dazzer** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:40 am

maguskwt wrote:
Dazzer wrote:Since i can't post in the poll I like to add I did make one pre manc game for the manc game and it got deleted as for poll being useless If its so useless why so many people vote on them ? Plus it was by request I said don't shoot the maker as I was asked to make it by more then 1 memeber.

wow so some members did ask you personally to create a Rafa poll...

wow... this must be some special poll that only Dazzer can create... and I thought we already had a poll on Rafa? Well it explains that the poll was not based on quantifiable options but words that the rest of us cannot express... a special poll indeed...

So impressed with your self well done where did i say that ?

by **Lando_Griffin** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:46 am

Dazzer wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
Dazzer wrote:Since i can't post in the poll I like to add I did make one pre manc game for the manc game and it got deleted as for poll being useless If its so useless why so many people vote on them ? Plus it was by request I said don't shoot the maker as I was asked to make it by more then 1 memeber.

You're a real Martyr, aren't you?

Quess that depends on if you mean it in the Christianity , Judaism , Islam , Hinduism , Bahá'í Faith , Sikhism meaning of the word lando can you give me some more info ?

See what I mean? You're such a victim...

Martyr: "a person who is put to death or endures great suffering on behalf of any belief, principle, or cause."

Or in this case;

"a person who seeks sympathy or attention by feigning or exaggerating pain, deprivation, etc."

The latter sums you up to a "T".

"I made this poll because I was asked to by various members..."

You sad, pompous *insert expletive here...

by **JoeTerp** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 7:26 am

Can't see any logic in sacking the manager this week.

I am also very much in the camp of "be careful what you wish for" What gives people confidence that the manager that replaces Rafa will be so brilliant? Not even to get into whether or not there are managers out there capable, but who the American's could actually attract to accept the position.

How attractive is the position of manager of LFC at this moment? You inherit a weak squad with tons of players that are "not good enough," almost all your players that are any good have serious fitness issues. Incredible pressure from the fans to win the league title, which becomes harder and harder each year as clubs like Man City spend and spend and get used to being a bigger club, turmoil in dressing room, financial debts, etc.

Lots of talk about some of the better managers in the prem (typical), what the heck do any of those managers know about winning league titles at the top flight?

If we look to any foreign managers with success, none of them know anything about the English league.

I think Capello is actually an interesting name because he has won the title in big time leagues at big time clubs with lot of pressure, and is somewhat familiar with the English game (although he hasn't managed against other English teams)

Can't see us being able to land Mourinho

This is still the same manager and largely the same team that finished 2nd last season, lets give him the whole season to set the ship straight.

Aquilani hasn't even made his league debut yet. Even if he had, we would probably be saying that he gets a bit of a pass this year to adjust to English football. At the time we signed him, we thought he would be fit much earlier, and Rafa would have been going the club a MASSIVE disservice if he sacrificed buying a less talented player just so he could have someone that was fit for the first couple of months of a 5 year contract. To point that it was Rafa's fault that Alonso left, ok if that is conceded, he also thought he would be able to replace him with Barry, which didn't happen.

Without any obvious upgrade out there, I'd rather stick with consistency.

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 7:49 am

JoeTerp wrote:Can't see any logic in sacking the manager this week.

I am also very much in the camp of "be careful what you wish for" What gives people confidence that the manager that replaces Rafa will be so brilliant? Not even to get into whether or not there are managers out there capable, but who the American's could actually attract to accept the position.

How attractive is the position of manager of LFC at this moment? You inherit a weak squad with tons of players that are "not good enough," almost all your players that are any good have serious fitness issues. Incredible pressure from the fans to win the league title, which becomes harder and harder each year as clubs like Man City spend and spend and get used to being a bigger club, turmoil in dressing room, financial debts, etc.

Lots of talk about some of the better managers in the prem (typical), what the heck do any of those managers know about winning league titles at the top flight?

If we look to any foreign managers with success, none of them know anything about the English league.

I think Capello is actually an interesting name because he has won the title in big time leagues at big time clubs with lot of pressure, and is somewhat familiar with the English game (although he hasn't managed against other English teams)

Can't see us being able to land Mourinho

This is still the same manager and largely the same team that finished 2nd last season, lets give him the whole season to set the ship straight.

Aquilani hasn't even made his league debut yet. Even if he had, we would probably be saying that he gets a bit of a pass this year to adjust to English football. At the time we signed him, we thought he would be fit much earlier, and Rafa would have been going the club a MASSIVE disservice if he sacrificed buying a less talented player just so he could have someone that was fit for the first couple of months of a 5 year contract. To point that it was Rafa's fault that Alonso left, ok if that is conceded, he also thought he would be able to replace him with Barry, which didn't happen.

Without any obvious upgrade out there, I'd rather stick with consistency.

I agree Joe there would be little to be gained by sacking the manager this week.

Although when you mention "a weak squad with tons of players that are "not good enough," almost all your players that are any good have serious fitness issues. " It does start to become a more attractive proposition. Afterall who is to blame for our weak squad and the tons of players who aren't good enough?

I would say if the worst came to pass and Rafa walked or was sacked the obvious candidate in the short term would be Dalglish. A manager that has won the league both with a team he inherited, and with a team that he largely built. He also knows all about winning titles in the top flight as he went on to do it again with Blackburn.

If we look to any foreign managers with success, none of them know anything about the English league.

Again Mourinho would have a good case to argue about that statement. Obviously it would be a case of if he wanted to come, but he has indicated before how he would love to manage us ......so maybe he might surprise everyone and accept ?

As I posted earlier in this thread Dalglish, Mourinho and Hiddink would be the three on my shortlist. Two of whom have won the title more than once and in their first season to boot.

by **Owzat** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 7:56 am

Espionage wrote:Although there are a lot of people calling for his head, I dont think that this result changed that many people's minds. Maybe it did.

Either way I wouldnt mind seeing a new Rafa faith-o-metre around about now..

Probably not, people are too stubborn to shift opinions that quickly but that said, they will blow one result out of proportion (like the manc result after four straight defeats)

Red cards or not, we dominated possession without really looking a threat, they had piddly amounts of possession and scored three goals. The manager took off our key player at 1-1 in readiness for midweek, he then took off two others with the same game in mind. I suspect a defeat midweek may see him on his way out, if not immediately then in January or the summer. We're currently P16 W8 D0 L8 which is feeble, even accounting for injuries which incidentally Gerrard has only been missing for the last three of which we won one and lost two.

We're in serious sh 1 t, only the seriously deluded can and will continue to ignore it. If we can only win the league with Torres, Gerrard and Aquilani all fit then how do the deluded propose we're going to win it because they will get injuries from time to time? The side we have fielded in most of the defeats this season should have been good enough to draw or even win, but Rafa isn't the master tactician some seem to think. Much more Rafa and it's not just the league we'll lose, it's Gerrard and Torres as well. Rafa spent £39m on players in the summer, 1/26 of that spending was fit to play

Lyon is crunch, can the manager really lose seven out of eight and keep his job? Maybe relegation candidates might accept that kind of rate of loss, but a team aiming at trophies and Europe?!?

MOST DEFEATS IN FIRST ELEVEN PREMIERSHIP GAMES

5 : 1992/93, 1993/94, 2009/10
4 : 1999/00, 2003/04, 2004/05, 2006/07

We have yet to lose six of our first 12 games in the Premiership

WORST PREMIERSHIP STARTS (ELEVEN GAMES)

12 points : 1992/93
15 points : 1999/00
16 points : 1993/94, 1998/99
17 points : 2003/04, 2004/05, 2006/07
18 points : 1997/98, 2009/10

2008/09 vs 2009/10

AFTER ELEVEN GAMES

2008/09 : P11 W8 D2 L1 F16 A8 PTS 26 (GD +8)
2009/10 : P11 W6 D0 L5 F25 A16 PTS 18 (GD +9)

CORRESPONDING FIXTURES

2008/09 : P10 W7 D2 L1 F18 A5 PTS 23 (GD +13)
2009/10 : P10 W5 D0 L5 F21 A16 PTS 15 (GD +5)

So either way we're eight points worse off than last season. It does show we've mopped up the weaker teams at home, sticking 14 goals past Stoke, Hull and Burnley while conceding only one. Last season we were somewhat 'charmed' in our first 10 games, 1-0 wins over Sunderland, Chelsea and Portsmouth, two red card assisted 3-2s over Citeh and Wigan with perhaps the two stale 0-0 draws against Stoke and villa fitting in. Even the 2-1 wins over boro and the mancs were 'charmed', the win over boro taking a late own goal and winner to turn it around, while the mancs game we were much the better side but still didn't score the winner until the 77th minute - note once more that Torres never came off the bench in that game, and Gerrard only came on later in the game (early in Rafa's substitution zone ie 68th minute)

And one more thing, the injuries myth that was always bound to do the rounds

PREMIERSHIP APPEARANCES 09/10 vs 08/09 (AFTER ELEVEN GAMES)

Reina : 11-11
Carragher : 11-11
Kuyt : 11-11 (3-4 on goals scored)
Agger : 2-3
Skrtel : 8-6
Mascherano : 10-5
Benayoun : 11-9 (3-0 on goals scored)
Gerrard : 8-10 (3-2 on goals scored)
Torres : 10-6 (10-5 on goals scored)

Of course Alonso wins 11-0 over Aquilani, but then Rafa chose to buy Aquilani knowing he'd probably have that zero well into October. So blaming injuries is one thing that won't wash, Torres has played and scored more than he did last season by this stage, Kuyt, Carra and Reina haven't missed games in either season (and Kuyt's the only player in that comparison who scored more last season, by ONE) and new 'flavour of the season' Benayoun has played all league games so far and scored three goals (all in one 4-0 win)

We've got two less games out of Gerrard, but four more out of Torres. Much maligned Keane played in all but one of the first 11 last season without scoring, but the team won eight out of 11. Arbeloa started all of the first 11 games, Johnson has missed just one (and scored twice to Arbeloa's nil)

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 8:01 am

Just to add a note of optimism to the thread a team once lost 5 of their first 11 games and went on to win the Title ....... Liverpool back in 1905/06

by **Owzat** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 8:25 am

s@int wrote:Just to add a note of optimism to the thread a team once lost 5 of their first 11 games and went on to win the Title ....... Liverpool back in 1905/06

Very much different era, I've heard the last side to win it having lost five of the first 11 was Citeh.

2009/10 Liverpool P11 W6 D0 L5 F25 A16 PTS 18
1967/68 Man City P11 W4 D1 L5 F19 A14 PTS 16

The league was won with 58 points from 42 games, that would be 84 in a three point system. They had the advantage of an extra four games, but would two points a game win the league these days? The only TWO Premiership seasons where a side won the title without managing more than two points per game were both Man Utd in 1992/93 (84 points from 42 games) and 1996/97 (75 points from 38 games)

Last time the Premiership was won with less points than we managed last season was 2002/03 when the mancs won it with 83 points. Times have changed way too much, the problem is we'd also have to turn our fortunes around and the mess we're in in Europe could well hamper any league title aspirations. IF we win on Wednesday, well need to win the next one, and the next one. We were well in the title race last season once the group stages of the Champions League were done, we cruised through those. This season we are struggling and that often spells trouble

CHAMPIONS LEAGUE FACTOR - GROUP STAGES

04/05 : WLDWLW = 10 points, scraped through and finished 5th in the league

05/06 : WDWWDD = 12 points, through comfortably, finished 3rd in the league with 82 points

06/07 : DWWWWL = 13 points, through comfortably, finished 3rd in the league on GD

07/08 : DLLWWW = 10 points, struggled through and finished 4th in the league

08/09 : WWDDWW = 14 points, through comfortably, finished 2nd in the league with 86 points.

Three times we've gone through comfortably, finished with 86, 82 and a disappointing 68 (06/07) but better finishes in league positions than when we've struggled when our league form has not been great either - 58 points, 76 points and now 18 from 11.

In fairness, you're going to be in poor form anyway to be struggling in the CL and early in the league campaign to finish 4th or 5th, but we do seem to be very focused on CL progress over title aspirations. If Rafa was keener to win yesterday than Wednesday, would he not have left Torres on? (and Benayoun and Kuyt?) I didn't see what the point of bringing on a sub CB when we were down to nine so late and needing an equaliser, I'd have preferred to have kept attacking options on since preserving GD via damage limitation was the only thing purpose bringing on Ayala might have served.

by **The_Rock** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 8:42 am

DAV wrote:i no this is off point. but this great guy rafa. he plays lucas week in week out. we slag him off on here the commentators on tv slag him off and press slag him off.
Are we all wrong and god RAFA is right?

Its twilight zone i tell ya.....everyone is wrong except Mr Benitez.....

by **Dazzer** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:07 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:
Dazzer wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
Dazzer wrote:Since i can't post in the poll I like to add I did make one pre manc game for the manc game and it got deleted as for poll being useless If its so useless why so many people vote on them ? Plus it was by request I said don't shoot the maker as I was asked to make it by more then 1 memeber.

You're a real Martyr, aren't you?

Quess that depends on if you mean it in the Christianity , Judaism , Islam , Hinduism , Bahá'í Faith , Sikhism meaning of the word lando can you give me some more info ?

See what I mean? You're such a victim...

Martyr: "a person who is put to death or endures great suffering on behalf of any belief, principle, or cause."

Or in this case;

"a person who seeks sympathy or attention by feigning or exaggerating pain, deprivation, etc."

The latter sums you up to a "T".

"I made this poll because I was asked to by various members..."

You sad, pompous *insert expletive here...

That makes no sense btw you just speak nonesense and then blame others for speaking nonesense I swear you make it up as you go along.How on earth does what you just typed correspond with what I typed or who you think I am.You know nothing about me Lando only what I choose to let you know so tbh you wasting your breath and only serving your self so carry on and I Just sit here all back of the bus and sh.it.

by **JoeTerp** » Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:23 am

s@int wrote:
JoeTerp wrote:Can't see any logic in sacking the manager this week.

I am also very much in the camp of "be careful what you wish for" What gives people confidence that the manager that replaces Rafa will be so brilliant? Not even to get into whether or not there are managers out there capable, but who the American's could actually attract to accept the position.

How attractive is the position of manager of LFC at this moment? You inherit a weak squad with tons of players that are "not good enough," almost all your players that are any good have serious fitness issues. Incredible pressure from the fans to win the league title, which becomes harder and harder each year as clubs like Man City spend and spend and get used to being a bigger club, turmoil in dressing room, financial debts, etc.

Lots of talk about some of the better managers in the prem (typical), what the heck do any of those managers know about winning league titles at the top flight?

If we look to any foreign managers with success, none of them know anything about the English league.

I think Capello is actually an interesting name because he has won the title in big time leagues at big time clubs with lot of pressure, and is somewhat familiar with the English game (although he hasn't managed against other English teams)

Can't see us being able to land Mourinho

This is still the same manager and largely the same team that finished 2nd last season, lets give him the whole season to set the ship straight.

Aquilani hasn't even made his league debut yet. Even if he had, we would probably be saying that he gets a bit of a pass this year to adjust to English football. At the time we signed him, we thought he would be fit much earlier, and Rafa would have been going the club a MASSIVE disservice if he sacrificed buying a less talented player just so he could have someone that was fit for the first couple of months of a 5 year contract. To point that it was Rafa's fault that Alonso left, ok if that is conceded, he also thought he would be able to replace him with Barry, which didn't happen.

Without any obvious upgrade out there, I'd rather stick with consistency.

I agree Joe there would be little to be gained by sacking the manager this week.

Although when you mention "a weak squad with tons of players that are "not good enough," almost all your players that are any good have serious fitness issues. " It does start to become a more attractive proposition. Afterall who is to blame for our weak squad and the tons of players who aren't good enough?

I would say if the worst came to pass and Rafa walked or was sacked the obvious candidate in the short term would be Dalglish. A manager that has won the league both with a team he inherited, and with a team that he largely built. He also knows all about winning titles in the top flight as he went on to do it again with Blackburn.

If we look to any foreign managers with success, none of them know anything about the English league.

Again Mourinho would have a good case to argue about that statement. Obviously it would be a case of if he wanted to come, but he has indicated before how he would love to manage us ......so maybe he might surprise everyone and accept ?

As I posted earlier in this thread Dalglish, Mourinho and Hiddink would be the three on my shortlist. Two of whom have won the title more than once and in their first season to boot.

Dalglish has been out of the game for a while. I am sure a lot of stuff never leaves you, but I am not sure how interested he was in the last 5-6 years in following the careers of potential bargain buys across world football. Who knows if he has the energy for the job. 4 years ago my local american football team rehired its legendary coach from the 80s that won 3 league titles (and was already in the Hall of Fame) but had been out of the game for 13 years. There were early growing pains, then some mild success (but we were heavily backed financially), then he left with a year still left on his contract because he was too worn out, and now our team is in disarray just 20 some months after he left, and all the fans want to get rid of the owner and current coach.

Seems like Mourinho likes to be the front runner , and the only way I could see him coming would be if we had a more stable situation in the directors box

Hiddink seems a good option but its hard to tell what his priorities are. is he interested in taking on a multi year contract at club level? he is 62, how much longer does he intend on coaching?

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