Liverpool FC Forum

by **Rush Job** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:18 am

bigmick wrote:
Rush Job wrote:I`m just unsure mate TBH.

I don't think anyone's got all the answers mate. For my part, even though I'm a confirmed "non fan" of the manager, it's hard for me to reconcile getting rid of him either mid season, or only a few months after we came close to winning the title.

The reasoning that most of his defenders put up is fundamentally flawed and I'm happy to point that out as it comes along, but that doesn't mean we should be getting rid as of now I don't think.

What is it ive said that is fundamently flawed?
I`m no happy clapper, although I back the manager its a results game at the end of the day and we need to start getting some.

by **bigmick** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:22 am

Rush Job wrote:
bigmick wrote:
Rush Job wrote:I`m just unsure mate TBH.

I don't think anyone's got all the answers mate. For my part, even though I'm a confirmed "non fan" of the manager, it's hard for me to reconcile getting rid of him either mid season, or only a few months after we came close to winning the title.

The reasoning that most of his defenders put up is fundamentally flawed and I'm happy to point that out as it comes along, but that doesn't mean we should be getting rid as of now I don't think.

What is it ive said that is fundamently flawed?
I`m no happy clapper, although I back the manager its a results game at the end of the day and we need to start getting some.

Feck me Rushie I'm not on about you mate I'm saying in general

. I'm agreeing with you and saying I'm not sure either.

The main ways in which I think peoples reasoning is "fundamentally flawed" is when they put our demise this season purely down to money, or purely down to the owners.

Why? well we outspent Man Utd by about 65 million quid in the Summer, and they are disappearing over the horizon. We outspent Arsenal by about 30 million quid and they have gone past us like we were stood still. We have also spent more than them both net since Rafa hs been the manager.

As far as the owners, they obviously don't help because they are a pair of c...s obviously. They were though a pair of c...s last season as well, and we really did come quite close to winning it then.

by **Rush Job** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:28 am

No mate was just wondering like just to keep the discussion going.
Im sure if utd or arsenal had gaps in their squad like us money would have been available so im not sure thats really a fair comparison.
And break down how we have spent 65m more this season than the mancs?

by **bigmick** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:29 am

Rush Job wrote:No mate was just wondering like just to keep the discussion going.
Im sure if utd or arsenal had gaps in their squad like us money would have been available so im not sure thats really a fair comparison.

But you know what I'm going to say to that. Who's fault is it that we've got gaps in the squad?

by **Rush Job** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:30 am

bigmick wrote:
Rush Job wrote:No mate was just wondering like just to keep the discussion going.
Im sure if utd or arsenal had gaps in their squad like us money would have been available so im not sure thats really a fair comparison.

But you know what I'm going to say to that. Who's fault is it that we've got gaps in the squad?

Sorry I edited

by **Rush Job** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:42 am

bigmick wrote:
Rush Job wrote:No mate was just wondering like just to keep the discussion going.
Im sure if utd or arsenal had gaps in their squad like us money would have been available so im not sure thats really a fair comparison.

But you know what I'm going to say to that. Who's fault is it that we've got gaps in the squad?

Apart from that first season after H&G turned up when we bought in Babel, Lucas and the likes Benitez has had to concentrate on the first team and even then has been thwarted by his own board. The money was there for Barry not letting it go through is their fk up, just like not releasing the funds for Upson.
People say you couldnt trust Rafa with a good budget but look at some of the players we would have now if things were different.
Players like Villa, Silva, Barry, Simau and Alves, ffs they wouldnt even back him for a bid for Turner.

by **bigmick** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:45 am

Rush Job wrote:And break down how we have spent 65m more this season than the mancs?

Well the Mancs sold Ronaldo for 80 million quid. They also lost Tevez for free, but anyway they had 80 million coming in. They picked up Owen on a free, and Valencia for 18 million, making a net gain (negative spend) of around 62 million quid.

We on the other hand sold Alonso for 30 million, and Arbeloa for 2 million. We bought Aquilani for 20 million, Johnson for 18 million and the Greek bloke for 1.5 million.

The fees may be out by a million or so either way, but we spent about 5 million and they negative spent about 60 million or so. The difference may actually be more than 65 million, although no doubt I've forgotten someone they've bought I haven't googled it or anything.

by **Rush Job** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:53 am

bigmick wrote:
Rush Job wrote:And break down how we have spent 65m more this season than the mancs?

Well the Mancs sold Ronaldo for 80 million quid. They also lost Tevez for free, but anyway they had 80 million coming in. They picked up Owen on a free, and Valencia for 18 million, making a net gain (negative spend) of around 62 million quid.

We on the other hand sold Alonso for 30 million, and Arbeloa for 2 million. We bought Aquilani for 20 million, Johnson for 18 million and the Greek bloke for 1.5 million.

The fees may be out by a million or so either way, but we spent about 5 million and they negative spent about 60 million or so. The difference may actually be more than 65 million, although no doubt I've forgotten someone they've bought I haven't googled it or anything.

Yeh but that doesnt really mean we spent 65m more than them though does it, and like I say they didnt need to spend it especially with the inflated market.
Do you think AF needed to spend more than he did? He would of been buying for the sake of it.

by **Octsky** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:57 am

bigmick wrote:It's probably off topic (well it certainly is) but I liked Kelly too. It can't be too long before someone ventures the option of playing him right back and moving Johnson to right midfield. It's amazing how the introduction of one home grown player who can hold his end up suddenly makes the squad look deeper, as then you'd have Kuyt and Aquilani and Gerrard all able to play off Torres.

On a slightly separate and similarly off topic note, I think one of our problems this season is we haven't got a single player in the team who is a steady Eddie, you know what you're going to get every week. A Stevie Finnan type, a Hamman, a Carra of previous seasons. Not necessarily the managers fault or indeed anyone elses, just an observation.

My point is using youngsters can save us a bunch of money in which can be invested in positions that we have shortfall in.

Evidently Kelly and Isuna are ok, maybe we need to take a better look at Kelly, but it that a chance?
I feel that Rafa do not trust the youngster as old fergie or Wenger does. If Fergie did not use Macheda last season, we probably won the league.
If Fergie did not use a bunch of youngster (becks, giggs, scholes, nevsh.1.t, etc etc), God knows who will dominate the 90's. And he will be far from knocking us off the perch, in which he still is trying, but succeeding soon.

With a blend of good youngster and good signings, the squad wont be so thin and we probably wont not have this "crisis". God knows how many more gems in the youth academy that are overlooked.

by **akumaface** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:08 am

Honestly, if I'm Rafa, I don't mind leaving behind all this mess. He will get compensated very well and many club would be lining up for his service. Only our club will suffer if he leaves as there is no way we could find a decent manager in the middle of the season.

I think his transfer record may not be the greatest but I doubt among the top manager, he is not the worse either. Again, I think net spending is a more accurate measure as the spending only averages 20million per season. That is peanuts compare to others. Why he is signing so many unknown or free transfer is because we have no money. Just calculate the average cost for the starting eleven for Chelsea and Man U. Also, calculate the transfer fees for their bench, then you would know what I mean. Even wenger doesn't get it right everytime. He is not a magician as he is not always been able to buy someone for a small amount and then turn around to sell at a premium. A lot of the circumstances for Rafa was forced by the players (either they wanted to leave (alonso, arbeloa) or attitude problem like Pennant or Bellamy etc). I think Rafa had always been very professional and takes all the blame as he is the spoke person of the club. I still believe Hicks and Gilette were the one to blame since they are just too busy looking for buyers instead of running the club. All profit went into repaying of bank interest. We just don't have enough money to compete. That's a fact. If we only have 20million to spend per year, we need 11 years to buy 11 20million players

. Anyway, you see my point.

If Rafa is to go, he should go in the off season and not now since many believed our squad sucks and lack of depth anyway. That means not much we can do. We just have to ride this out as we really don't have any other choice then to stick with Rafa.

by **bigmick** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:46 am

Rush Job wrote:Yeh but that doesnt really mean we spent 65m more than them though does it,

Well in terms of net spend, yes it does to be honest. Put another way, who lost the more important performers? They lost Carlos Tevez who is accepted as being one of the best front players in the Premiership, if not in World football. They also lost Ronaldo, who in many pundits eyes is the best player in the World.

We lost Xabi Alonso who was an excellent player for us in his final season, and we lost Alvarro Arbeloa who despite being one of my favourite players, was a bit more limited I think it's fair to say.

by **Owzat** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:25 am

akumaface wrote:I think his transfer record may not be the greatest but I doubt among the top manager, he is not the worse either. Again, I think net spending is a more accurate measure as the spending only averages 20million per season. That is peanuts compare to others.

Shocker, a Liverpool fan trying to play down Rafa's spending by choosing the smaller number in 'net spending'. So Aquilani cost us -£10m did he?!?! Rafa spent £38.5m this summer, a bit more last summer. I can't believe anyone would think we spent just £5m this summer which is what the net spending would roughly work out at, now that would be a bargain!

IN (£38.5m) Johnson £17.5m, Aquilani £20m, Kyrgiakos £1.5m
OUT (£33.5m) Arbeloa £5m, Alonso £30m, Pennant released

I hope that demonstrates how crazy the idea of net spending as representative of spending is. I think it was Mick who said something along the lines of if you sell your house for £100k and buy one for £120k, does that mean your house cost £20k? Alonso was bought for £10.5m, sold for £30m so why should that £19.5m profit be factored in to make Rafa's spending look less?!?!? (which is the net effect of using net spending) Does that mean someone paid us £19.5m to sign Alonso in the first place? Does that mean Crouch cost us -£4m?!?!? Spending is spending, you don't fiddle them to make them read less painfully, all the other clubs that spend money also sell good players (their best in the case of the mancs) and do you bother doing net spending to compare with their figures or just for our's..............................??!?!?!? The mancs sold Ronaldo for £80m, they didn't spend that in two summers of spending and I'm guessing you take their sales and other clubs' sales into account then hardly anyone spends any money. Some clubs would probably run on near zero net spending by virtue of selling their best players to clubs like citeh.

The biggest problem with Rafa's spending is he spends a lot of money and we have not a lot to show for it.

by **maguskwt** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:59 am

That's right net spending is not the way to look at the amount Rafa's spent... similarly over generalization of of the amount Rafa has spent does not show the true picture.

If Rafa has bought Keane for 20 million, this money is already been sanctioned to build the squad. So if he sold Keane for 14 million and could not spend that 14 million (depreciated value) for a replacement that means that the owners HAVE revoked the 20 million sanctioned money to build the squad. The fact that we lost 6 million in value of the initial 20 million is Rafa's prerogative. But he should be allowed to spend the money recouped so that the 20 million initial investment count for something. Do we now say that Rafa has spent 20 million and got nothing to show for? If Rafa bought Alonso for 10.5 million, this IS the amount Rafa spent. The fact that he has raised this Alonso asset to 30million is to his credit. The fact that he was only able to spend 20 million of that 30 million means that the owners are siphoning off the value from an asset Rafa has increased. So do we say that he has spent 20 million? or do we say that he has spent 2/3 of 10.5 million? Come on now you just can't look at the spending part.

by **Dazzer** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:15 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:
Dazzer wrote:what if we lose vs united ? what is we fail to pick up points at fulham ? what then ? still back him ?

What if we beat them both 10-0? WIll you still be calling for his head?

No, of course not - you'd be clamoring to GIVE him head.

Fickle tw*ts.

Yes I will because I lost faith in him a long time ago.

Any ways looks like lando been on the tizer agian so many insults so little time. :laugh:

I find it funny.Poor little guy.

by **SouthCoastShankly** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:35 am

Say we do lose the next two games and it is 7 defeats in a row, Rafa gets the sack (at the cost of £13m). Who would be the caretaker manager?

King Kenny?

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