Rotation, - The 2008/09 season question.

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby god_bless_john_houlding » Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:16 pm

LFC2007 wrote:I've just shown you that they do play 20% more than they did 20 years ago, it's not up for debate.

where do they. let's keep it level shall we? (oh wait that proves you wrong doesn't it. yeah silly me, lets include friendlies from this year as well shall we?)

50 games in 1987/88. (without europe)
45 games in 2007/08. (without europe)

where do they play more games? where? please explain where?

To make 60 games this season they'd have to make the final of the European Cup. There's another three games to go until that point, so they don't play 20 percent more games now do they. Nope didn't think they did.
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2) pass and move is the Liverpool groove
3) FIRST WILL ALWAYS BE FIRST AND SECOND WILL ALWAYS BE NOTHING.
4) If Torres has scored 60 league goals for Liverpool by the start of the 2011/12 season, I'll say he's better than Owen.
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Postby LFC2007 » Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:22 pm

Why exclude European games?

Rafa said: "Nowadays, in comparison to 20 years ago, we play 20 per cent more games in a season."

Rafa was referring to rotation/keeping players fresh when he made the comment, he's stating a reality, a fact.
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Postby Kharhaz » Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:24 pm

RedBlood wrote:
Kharhaz wrote:And bricks for footballs ! Can you imagine them playing with the old lace up ones now? at least 5 players per team would be injured each match !

i think players of this generation would adapt to the situation ie heavy balls, bad pitchs, less strict refs like players of that generation would adapt nowadays to the pace of the game.

Top athletes would be top top athletes no matter when they were born

Mostly said with my tongue firmly in my cheek (ive got a peanut stuck in there, dont ask!)

Its like if you got in a pub fight with a modern day footballer the average joe would win by just giving a gentle slap on his cheek ! hed be rolling around as if hed been shot !  :D
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Postby god_bless_john_houlding » Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:31 pm

LFC2007 wrote:Why exclude European games?

because we didn't have european games 20 years ago...do you understand that? We were banned for 5 years from the 85/86 season to the 90/91 season. During that time, the 1987/88 season took place. That was 20 years ago. So if we're going to keep this fair, european games from this season must be excluded. But then again, that makes you wrong and puts Benitez' rotation policy under serious question again doesn't it, so lets just end this and say that players don't play any more games now than they used to.

Or lets just say this to back up Benitez' and your pathetic arguement, in 1892-93 the Liverpool side played 25 games in all competitions this year they can play a maximum of 60...yes we do need to rotate, those players in 1892/83 couldn't walk after the end of the season, if only they'd be rotated. (by the way we won the divison 2 title that year)
1) You'll Never Walk Alone
2) pass and move is the Liverpool groove
3) FIRST WILL ALWAYS BE FIRST AND SECOND WILL ALWAYS BE NOTHING.
4) If Torres has scored 60 league goals for Liverpool by the start of the 2011/12 season, I'll say he's better than Owen.
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Postby LFC2007 » Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:41 pm

Again you miss the point, read my post again slowly, with a calculator and a dictionary at hand.

I'll copy and paste it for you:

Rafa said: "Nowadays, in comparison to 20 years ago, we play 20 per cent more games in a season."

Rafa was referring to rotation/keeping players fresh when he made the comment, he's stating a reality, a fact.


There it is.

Rafa's alluding to the need to rest players more so now, in comparison to 20 years ago.
This has nothing to do with keeping it 'fair', who's suggesting it's a contest of fairness between two eras? Only you.

I'm stating what Rafa said, and endorsing it as a fact.
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Postby Kharhaz » Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:42 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:Why exclude European games?

because we didn't have european games 20 years ago...do you understand that? We were banned for 5 years from the 85/86 season to the 90/91 season. During that time, the 1987/88 season took place. That was 20 years ago. So if we're going to keep this fair, european games from this season must be excluded. But then again, that makes you wrong and puts Benitez' rotation policy under serious question again doesn't it, so lets just end this and say that players don't play any more games now than they used to.

Or lets just say this to back up Benitez' and your pathetic arguement, in 1892-93 the Liverpool side played 25 games in all competitions this year they can play a maximum of 60...yes we do need to rotate, those players in 1892/83 couldn't walk after the end of the season, if only they'd be rotated. (by the way we won the divison 2 title that year)

Ok but lets look at it when liverpool were playing in europe compared to todays game. The champions league, when it was set up constantly went through changes, first, only the champions got in, liverpool were used to this, second they decided to change it so that the top 2 or 3 teams got in. Not much difference as a they would be playing in the uefa cup or cup winners cup. Then it changed again, and this is the big difference, you now have qualifiers, then the groups to qualify then the 2 legged knockouts. To not include european matches, for me, knocks your argument on the head. Include european matches and everyone but the blind can see the top clubs, and not just the top 4 you have to include those who qualify for the uefa cup also, do indeed play more matches than previous years.
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Postby god_bless_john_houlding » Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:04 am

Kharhaz wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:Why exclude European games?

because we didn't have european games 20 years ago...do you understand that? We were banned for 5 years from the 85/86 season to the 90/91 season. During that time, the 1987/88 season took place. That was 20 years ago. So if we're going to keep this fair, european games from this season must be excluded. But then again, that makes you wrong and puts Benitez' rotation policy under serious question again doesn't it, so lets just end this and say that players don't play any more games now than they used to.

Or lets just say this to back up Benitez' and your pathetic arguement, in 1892-93 the Liverpool side played 25 games in all competitions this year they can play a maximum of 60...yes we do need to rotate, those players in 1892/83 couldn't walk after the end of the season, if only they'd be rotated. (by the way we won the divison 2 title that year)

Ok but lets look at it when liverpool were playing in europe compared to todays game. The champions league, when it was set up constantly went through changes, first, only the champions got in, liverpool were used to this, second they decided to change it so that the top 2 or 3 teams got in. Not much difference as a they would be playing in the uefa cup or cup winners cup. Then it changed again, and this is the big difference, you now have qualifiers, then the groups to qualify then the 2 legged knockouts. To not include european matches, for me, knocks your argument on the head. Include european matches and everyone but the blind can see the top clubs, and not just the top 4 you have to include those who qualify for the uefa cup also, do indeed play more matches than previous years.

no they don't as I've proved.

1976/77 Liverpool could of played a maximum of 64 games. (including europe)
2007/08 Liverpool could of played a maximum of 63 games.

Truth is in 1976/77 Liverpool played 62 games in all comps, this year the side can play a maximum of 60 games now, including group stages and qualifiers. So how is two games less playing more? It's a bollox excuse, that doesn't even stand to reason. Players didn't need to be rotated in them days when football was a mans game and eating habbits, pitch conditions were a fraction of what they are today. Super fit human beings can't run around a pitch for 270 minutes in a week. Less than 5 hours a week? Most people do more work than that in a day. It's a bollox excuse and people thinking they played more games is just as bollox as they clearly didn't.
1) You'll Never Walk Alone
2) pass and move is the Liverpool groove
3) FIRST WILL ALWAYS BE FIRST AND SECOND WILL ALWAYS BE NOTHING.
4) If Torres has scored 60 league goals for Liverpool by the start of the 2011/12 season, I'll say he's better than Owen.
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Postby LFC2007 » Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:06 am

2008 - 20 = 1988.
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Postby Kharhaz » Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:12 am

1976/77 Liverpool could of played a maximum of 64 games. (including europe)
2007/08 Liverpool could of played a maximum of 63 games.

Does the second bit ,the 2007/08 bit include europe?
Bill Shankly: “I was the best manager in Britain because I was never devious or cheated anyone. I’d break my wife’s legs if I played against her, but I’d never cheat her.”
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Postby god_bless_john_houlding » Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:12 am

yes we wasn't in europe, so it's pretty obvious we'd play more games isn't it.

Lets take Derby shall we who weren't in Europe. Will they have played 50 games this season? I doubt it. end of the season their record will stand at 38 league games, 1 league cup game and 3 fa cup games. This makes a total of 42 games, 8 less than Liverpool 20 years ago. So obviously teams don't play more games now than they used to.
1) You'll Never Walk Alone
2) pass and move is the Liverpool groove
3) FIRST WILL ALWAYS BE FIRST AND SECOND WILL ALWAYS BE NOTHING.
4) If Torres has scored 60 league goals for Liverpool by the start of the 2011/12 season, I'll say he's better than Owen.
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Postby god_bless_john_houlding » Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:13 am

Kharhaz wrote:
1976/77 Liverpool could of played a maximum of 64 games. (including europe)
2007/08 Liverpool could of played a maximum of 63 games.

Does the second bit ,the 2007/08 bit include europe?

yes
1) You'll Never Walk Alone
2) pass and move is the Liverpool groove
3) FIRST WILL ALWAYS BE FIRST AND SECOND WILL ALWAYS BE NOTHING.
4) If Torres has scored 60 league goals for Liverpool by the start of the 2011/12 season, I'll say he's better than Owen.
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Postby LFC2007 » Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:22 am

Edited in the interests of a happy forum.
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Postby Kharhaz » Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:46 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Kharhaz wrote:
1976/77 Liverpool could of played a maximum of 64 games. (including europe)
2007/08 Liverpool could of played a maximum of 63 games.

Does the second bit ,the 2007/08 bit include europe?

yes

Ok so what is the maximum amount of games LFC have played in a season since 1977?
Bill Shankly: “I was the best manager in Britain because I was never devious or cheated anyone. I’d break my wife’s legs if I played against her, but I’d never cheat her.”
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Postby Kharhaz » Sat Apr 05, 2008 1:11 am

Kharhaz wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Kharhaz wrote:
1976/77 Liverpool could of played a maximum of 64 games. (including europe)
2007/08 Liverpool could of played a maximum of 63 games.

Does the second bit ,the 2007/08 bit include europe?

yes

Ok so what is the maximum amount of games LFC have played in a season since 1977?

Like stats that are quoted you only raise points which are suitable to your argument.
Bill Shankly: “I was the best manager in Britain because I was never devious or cheated anyone. I’d break my wife’s legs if I played against her, but I’d never cheat her.”
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Postby bigmick » Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:56 am

Like most pro rotation "Rafa style" arguments, the "the players play more games than they did twenty years ago" sounds good but it doesn't really stand up to scrutiny. Fortunately for those wish to prove the stat and the statement to be correct, as has been pointed out we were banned from Europe during this particular year so it just about is. Nobody will convince me however that this is what Rafa meant when he said it, he didn't think to himself "I know what, Ill defend rotation by picking on that particular period where the club was banned from Europe as it's true to say we'll play more games in this season that we did in that one". He most probably didn't consider that the league was forty two games in those days rather than thirty eight, and figured that the Champions league as opposed to a knockout European Cup would involve many more fixtures. It's by no means a crime on his part that he got a bit mixed up, but that is certainly what happened in my view.

All that said though, I think I would agree with anybody who says that football has changed from twenty years ago (or indeed from the late seventies to todays modern era) and that a manager would need to change the team more than they did in those days. Football these days is more of an explosive sport, players are more finely tuned athletes and like high performance sports cars as opposed to Hillman Hunters, there is probably more that can go wrong with them. So for me making the argument that we never had to rotate in the past is as wrong as saying we play more games than we did in previous eras. We play broadly the same amount of games, but the nature of those games is different, and the players need to be rotated more than they were then.

Despite all that of course, Rafa has massively overdone it in each of his four seasons at Liverpool. Given the fact that we have now settled on a team pattern, and indeed to a lesser or greater extent a team, I wonder what the pro's views on the situation are now? It seems to me he was either wrong before or he's wrong now, as his methodology has radically altered over the last six weeks or so. Would people like to see him begin next season in a similar way to the way he's going now, or would they like to return to seventy five changes to the team in the first fifteen matches or whatever it was. Do people think that fourteen points or so off the top of the league at this stage is about as good as we actually are, just above Everton, or do they think we might have been closer with more conventional selection methods? Do they think all the team changes made absolutely no difference to our results whatsoever, even helped us to get as many popints as we did perhaps?

I noted Sabre's interjection about the Arsenal situation and it's an interesting one. I kind of agree that Arsenal could probably have rotated a bit more after Christmas to rest the players for the final push for the title, but it was I suspect a thin squad rathter than dogma which prevented it happening. The two other points worth mentioning are of course that they fielded a settled team constantly and got the results and performances as their reward in the first half of the season. We got neither to be frank and I would be interested to hear whether people think they would have gone quite as well if Wenger had been "Rafa styling". Also, when you consider that they were unheralded before the season started, and they are supposedly dead on their feet now, I must say despite all of that they still looked like a pretty good team to me the other night. As I've said a couple of times, they look tired, but our "Rafa styled" players weren't exactly leaping around like delayed gazelles either.
Last edited by bigmick on Sat Apr 05, 2008 3:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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