Liverpool FC Forum

by **Penguins** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:43 pm

For 1 more season yes, then he is MSI's player.

And when it comes to Mascherano there is no longer any 3rd party involved!
West ham is no long in any part connected with masch anymore.
They gave up his registration rights when he moved to us so we only had to deal with MSI as Masch is their player.

When it comes to Tevez the situation is much more complex both because of the agreement West Ham was supposed to rip up in April and the fact that WH has no interest at all to let go of Tevez registration rights. That means there are 3 parties involved.

I think from 95% of the reports I've read is that we loan Masch for 12 more Months then he is MSI property once again.
If we want him after that we probably will have to buy him.

Only question is:

Were we smart enough to agree on a set price with MSI after the loan ended or will MSI offer him to the highest bidder after the loan is over??

And plz remember that MSI makes the decisions and not Masch. So it doesn't matter what Masch thinks one way or the other. If Manure, Chelski etc bid £30m and we bid £20m he will not play for us anymore. It's very simple to me.

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:54 pm

Penguins wrote:And plz remember that MSI makes the decisions and not Masch. So it doesn't matter what Masch thinks one way or the other. If Manure, Chelski etc bid £30m and we bid £20m he will not play for us anymore. It's very simple to me.

It seems to me that Mascherano would have plenty of say in where he ends up. Like all players, he can always refuse to play for clubs he has no interest in, much like Cisse refused to cooperate with a move to Portsmouth or West Ham, forcing us to deal with Marseille. If Man U, say, put in a 30 million bid and he made it clear that he will not play a minute of football for him, I dare say they'd retract their bid. He's not a slave...his registration is just owned by an agent rather than a club but he still has the same leverage as any player does--the power to decide if he will in fact play for a particular club or not.

by **Penguins** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:21 am

So you honestly think if Manure and Chelski bid £30m Masch would tell Kia to jump and insist on a £20m move to Liverpool?

Not going to happen.
1st of all Tevez for example will be at United and if Kia who own both players tries to persuade masch how good it would be if those 2 would play again together. Then there is Tevez who will try and tell his friend masch how great it is at utd.

kia will kindly but bluntly tell masch that Liverpool has not bid enough and Liverpool has no say whatsoever where he goes.
Liverpool will not be an option and we can't keep him cause we will not own his registration or the right to the player.

Very naive to think just cause he played a season for Liverpool he would tell Kia and tevez to go to **** and refuse to go any other place. It's MSI who totally and fully owns the player and has actually more influence on the player than a club would have.

It's not like Cissé who we had to sell cause we didn't want him and his contract was running down. And Cissé could just force liverpool to sell him to Marseille.

Masch has no number of years to his contracts with MSI!
He is owned completely and MSI has no need to sell or are forced to sell cause they have all the time in the world.

Like Tevez has told the press that Kia is the person he trust the most and listens to his advice I am 100% certain that masch does the same.

by **Happy-Punter** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:47 am

Really disagree with you. If Mascherano has a good year with us, and wants to stay he will.

by **Penguins** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:55 am

Sigh, some Liverpool fans really are naive and think the world evolve around the club.

You really think that just cause Masch might want to stay he'll refuse every other club in the world even if MSI who owns him want him to move to a different club?

He is not a Liverpool player in 12 months time!
Liverpool will not own his registration or own him and will have no connection with him at all.
Get that through your head!

by **Happy-Punter** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:24 am

Erm yes... If he wants to stay he will refuse every other club in the world.

by **puroresu** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:56 am

Penguins wrote:Sigh, some Liverpool fans really are naive and think the world evolve around the club.

You really think that just cause Masch might want to stay he'll refuse every other club in the world even if MSI who owns him want him to move to a different club?

He is not a Liverpool player in 12 months time!
Liverpool will not own his registration or own him and will have no connection with him at all.
Get that through your head!

Spot on. There is no guarantee Masherano will be here after the loan deal. It does not matter if Mascherano wanted to stay. Do people believe Tevez and Mascherano wanted to go to West Ham? Of course they didnt but MSI and Kia decided it was best so they went. At the end of his Liverpool deal, they may feel Mascherano going to Inter Milan it will be best and can happen.

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:21 pm

Penguins wrote:So you honestly think if Manure and Chelski bid £30m Masch would tell Kia to jump and insist on a £20m move to Liverpool?

Not going to happen.
1st of all Tevez for example will be at United and if Kia who own both players tries to persuade masch how good it would be if those 2 would play again together. Then there is Tevez who will try and tell his friend masch how great it is at utd.

kia will kindly but bluntly tell masch that Liverpool has not bid enough and Liverpool has no say whatsoever where he goes.
Liverpool will not be an option and we can't keep him cause we will not own his registration or the right to the player.

Very naive to think just cause he played a season for Liverpool he would tell Kia and tevez to go to **** and refuse to go any other place. It's MSI who totally and fully owns the player and has actually more influence on the player than a club would have.

It's not like Cissé who we had to sell cause we didn't want him and his contract was running down. And Cissé could just force liverpool to sell him to Marseille.

Masch has no number of years to his contracts with MSI!
He is owned completely and MSI has no need to sell or are forced to sell cause they have all the time in the world.

Like Tevez has told the press that Kia is the person he trust the most and listens to his advice I am 100% certain that masch does the same.

So, you're saying that it's inconceivable that Mascherano would want to stay with us rather than go to the highest bidder? You must think him a real mercenary? Personally, I've seen nothing but gratitude and praise toward Liverpool from the lad and I think that will be a back factor when his loan period draws to a close.

As for the intricacies of his contract with KIA, I don't doubt that they have a bit more leverage than the average club but, come on, are they really going to present one of their prized assets with such a stark ultimatum? If their relationship is as good as you imply then they will be prepared to listen to the players wishes. It may require us to pay a bit more to keep the lad then we had hoped but, if he wants to stay, I think it can be worked out that he will say. I'll say it again, he's under contract but he's not a slave and KIA, I'm sure, will not be permitted to treat him as such.

by **maguskwt** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:02 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
Penguins wrote:So you honestly think if Manure and Chelski bid £30m Masch would tell Kia to jump and insist on a £20m move to Liverpool?

Not going to happen.
1st of all Tevez for example will be at United and if Kia who own both players tries to persuade masch how good it would be if those 2 would play again together. Then there is Tevez who will try and tell his friend masch how great it is at utd.

kia will kindly but bluntly tell masch that Liverpool has not bid enough and Liverpool has no say whatsoever where he goes.
Liverpool will not be an option and we can't keep him cause we will not own his registration or the right to the player.

Very naive to think just cause he played a season for Liverpool he would tell Kia and tevez to go to **** and refuse to go any other place. It's MSI who totally and fully owns the player and has actually more influence on the player than a club would have.

It's not like Cissé who we had to sell cause we didn't want him and his contract was running down. And Cissé could just force liverpool to sell him to Marseille.

Masch has no number of years to his contracts with MSI!
He is owned completely and MSI has no need to sell or are forced to sell cause they have all the time in the world.

Like Tevez has told the press that Kia is the person he trust the most and listens to his advice I am 100% certain that masch does the same.

So, you're saying that it's inconceivable that Mascherano would want to stay with us rather than go to the highest bidder? You must think him a real mercenary? Personally, I've seen nothing but gratitude and praise toward Liverpool from the lad and I think that will be a back factor when his loan period draws to a close.

As for the intricacies of his contract with KIA, I don't doubt that they have a bit more leverage than the average club but, come on, are they really going to present one of their prized assets with such a stark ultimatum? If their relationship is as good as you imply then they will be prepared to listen to the players wishes. It may require us to pay a bit more to keep the lad then we had hoped but, if he wants to stay, I think it can be worked out that he will say. I'll say it again, he's under contract but he's not a slave and KIA, I'm sure, will not be permitted to treat him as such.

I agree... Kia is not just their owner he's also their agent... I'm sure their working relationship should have mutual benefits... otherwise why would tevez and mascherano agree to be owned by MSI?... unless of course they're real mercernaries and they don't mind playing wherever as long as it's the highest bidder... if that's the case they have a very pathetic life and no one will respect them... I'm sure they do have their say on where they want to play... they should have some sort of agreement with MSI when they signed up with them...

if mascherano decides to go to man u after the loan spell here because they pay better then i'm sure he'll be making alot of enemy...

I just hope for our part we have included some sort of first priority option to buy him...

by **Penguins** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:09 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
Penguins wrote:So you honestly think if Manure and Chelski bid £30m Masch would tell Kia to jump and insist on a £20m move to Liverpool?

Not going to happen.
1st of all Tevez for example will be at United and if Kia who own both players tries to persuade masch how good it would be if those 2 would play again together. Then there is Tevez who will try and tell his friend masch how great it is at utd.

kia will kindly but bluntly tell masch that Liverpool has not bid enough and Liverpool has no say whatsoever where he goes.
Liverpool will not be an option and we can't keep him cause we will not own his registration or the right to the player.

Very naive to think just cause he played a season for Liverpool he would tell Kia and tevez to go to **** and refuse to go any other place. It's MSI who totally and fully owns the player and has actually more influence on the player than a club would have.

It's not like Cissé who we had to sell cause we didn't want him and his contract was running down. And Cissé could just force liverpool to sell him to Marseille.

Masch has no number of years to his contracts with MSI!
He is owned completely and MSI has no need to sell or are forced to sell cause they have all the time in the world.

Like Tevez has told the press that Kia is the person he trust the most and listens to his advice I am 100% certain that masch does the same.

So, you're saying that it's inconceivable that Mascherano would want to stay with us rather than go to the highest bidder? You must think him a real mercenary? Personally, I've seen nothing but gratitude and praise toward Liverpool from the lad and I think that will be a back factor when his loan period draws to a close.

As for the intricacies of his contract with KIA, I don't doubt that they have a bit more leverage than the average club but, come on, are they really going to present one of their prized assets with such a stark ultimatum? If their relationship is as good as you imply then they will be prepared to listen to the players wishes. It may require us to pay a bit more to keep the lad then we had hoped but, if he wants to stay, I think it can be worked out that he will say. I'll say it again, he's under contract but he's not a slave and KIA, I'm sure, will not be permitted to treat him as such.

And I'm saying if Manure bid £30m and we bid £20m there is no chance that MSI will bend to Masch's wishes if it means a difference of £10m.

Masch is not a Liverpool player. He is on loan from MSI who owns him and has all through his carreer decided that he should move from River to Corinthians and then to WH just like Tevez.

That tells me both trust Kia's judgement and that what MSI says goes. It's not about putting a stark ultimatum on Masch.
So far Masch has signed a life long deal with MSI which means they decide where he goes. There is just no way MSI will just say:
"Yes, Masch just cause you have played a season at Liverpool and like it we will take a 10m loss on our investment in you"

DREAM ON!

If on the other hand the bids might come close then I could see masch's wishes make a difference.
But if we haven't agreed a set price and Chelski, Manure, Inter etc bid £30m it's either we cough up the money or we loose the player. Sure if we bid £29m it could make a difference but it's not like masch will go on a strike and refuse every other big club in the world.
So very naive

by **weringo** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:28 pm

Penguins wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
Penguins wrote:So you honestly think if Manure and Chelski bid £30m Masch would tell Kia to jump and insist on a £20m move to Liverpool?

Not going to happen.
1st of all Tevez for example will be at United and if Kia who own both players tries to persuade masch how good it would be if those 2 would play again together. Then there is Tevez who will try and tell his friend masch how great it is at utd.

kia will kindly but bluntly tell masch that Liverpool has not bid enough and Liverpool has no say whatsoever where he goes.
Liverpool will not be an option and we can't keep him cause we will not own his registration or the right to the player.

Very naive to think just cause he played a season for Liverpool he would tell Kia and tevez to go to **** and refuse to go any other place. It's MSI who totally and fully owns the player and has actually more influence on the player than a club would have.

It's not like Cissé who we had to sell cause we didn't want him and his contract was running down. And Cissé could just force liverpool to sell him to Marseille.

Masch has no number of years to his contracts with MSI!
He is owned completely and MSI has no need to sell or are forced to sell cause they have all the time in the world.

Like Tevez has told the press that Kia is the person he trust the most and listens to his advice I am 100% certain that masch does the same.

So, you're saying that it's inconceivable that Mascherano would want to stay with us rather than go to the highest bidder? You must think him a real mercenary? Personally, I've seen nothing but gratitude and praise toward Liverpool from the lad and I think that will be a back factor when his loan period draws to a close.

As for the intricacies of his contract with KIA, I don't doubt that they have a bit more leverage than the average club but, come on, are they really going to present one of their prized assets with such a stark ultimatum? If their relationship is as good as you imply then they will be prepared to listen to the players wishes. It may require us to pay a bit more to keep the lad then we had hoped but, if he wants to stay, I think it can be worked out that he will say. I'll say it again, he's under contract but he's not a slave and KIA, I'm sure, will not be permitted to treat him as such.

And I'm saying if Manure bid £30m and we bid £20m there is no chance that MSI will bend to Masch's wishes if it means a difference of £10m.

Masch is not a Liverpool player. He is on loan from MSI who owns him and has all through his carreer decided that he should move from River to Corinthians and then to WH just like Tevez.

That tells me both trust Kia's judgement and that what MSI says goes. It's not about putting a stark ultimatum on Masch.
So far Masch has signed a life long deal with MSI which means they decide where he goes. There is just no way MSI will just say:
"Yes, Masch just cause you have played a season at Liverpool and like it we will take a 10m loss on our investment in you"

DREAM ON!

If on the other hand the bids might come close then I could see masch's wishes make a difference.
But if we haven't agreed a set price and Chelski, Manure, Inter etc bid £30m it's either we cough up the money or we loose the player. Sure if we bid £29m it could make a difference but it's not like masch will go on a strike and refuse every other big club in the world.
So very naive

I'm sorry mate you are just wrong. MSI can't just go around telling Masch to play for whoever they want him to, if a bid of 50 million came in from a club in Timbuktu MSI couldn't just say "ok you're playing for them now cya later".

If Masch said to MSI I want to play for Liverpool not Man U they would be forced to sell him to us unless they want to let his contract run out playing for no one and not making any money from him watsoever.

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:32 pm

Penguins wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
Penguins wrote:So you honestly think if Manure and Chelski bid £30m Masch would tell Kia to jump and insist on a £20m move to Liverpool?

Not going to happen.
1st of all Tevez for example will be at United and if Kia who own both players tries to persuade masch how good it would be if those 2 would play again together. Then there is Tevez who will try and tell his friend masch how great it is at utd.

kia will kindly but bluntly tell masch that Liverpool has not bid enough and Liverpool has no say whatsoever where he goes.
Liverpool will not be an option and we can't keep him cause we will not own his registration or the right to the player.

Very naive to think just cause he played a season for Liverpool he would tell Kia and tevez to go to **** and refuse to go any other place. It's MSI who totally and fully owns the player and has actually more influence on the player than a club would have.

It's not like Cissé who we had to sell cause we didn't want him and his contract was running down. And Cissé could just force liverpool to sell him to Marseille.

Masch has no number of years to his contracts with MSI!
He is owned completely and MSI has no need to sell or are forced to sell cause they have all the time in the world.

Like Tevez has told the press that Kia is the person he trust the most and listens to his advice I am 100% certain that masch does the same.

So, you're saying that it's inconceivable that Mascherano would want to stay with us rather than go to the highest bidder? You must think him a real mercenary? Personally, I've seen nothing but gratitude and praise toward Liverpool from the lad and I think that will be a back factor when his loan period draws to a close.

As for the intricacies of his contract with KIA, I don't doubt that they have a bit more leverage than the average club but, come on, are they really going to present one of their prized assets with such a stark ultimatum? If their relationship is as good as you imply then they will be prepared to listen to the players wishes. It may require us to pay a bit more to keep the lad then we had hoped but, if he wants to stay, I think it can be worked out that he will say. I'll say it again, he's under contract but he's not a slave and KIA, I'm sure, will not be permitted to treat him as such.

And I'm saying if Manure bid £30m and we bid £20m there is no chance that MSI will bend to Masch's wishes if it means a difference of £10m.

Masch is not a Liverpool player. He is on loan from MSI who owns him and has all through his carreer decided that he should move from River to Corinthians and then to WH just like Tevez.

That tells me both trust Kia's judgement and that what MSI says goes. It's not about putting a stark ultimatum on Masch.
So far Masch has signed a life long deal with MSI which means they decide where he goes. There is just no way MSI will just say:
"Yes, Masch just cause you have played a season at Liverpool and like it we will take a 10m loss on our investment in you"

DREAM ON!

If on the other hand the bids might come close then I could see masch's wishes make a difference.
But if we haven't agreed a set price and Chelski, Manure, Inter etc bid £30m it's either we cough up the money or we loose the player. Sure if we bid £29m it could make a difference but it's not like masch will go on a strike and refuse every other big club in the world.
So very naive

On the contrary, I think you're being a bit naive to suggest that Mascherano will have absolutely no say in where he plays his football for the rest of his career. Perhaps he's managed to forge a reasonable working relationship with his owners which allows him to contribute to any decisions over his future? Perhaps he might fancy the opportunity of staying with us and he might just have the capacity to persuade Kia to turn down a larger bid? You never know.

And who knows, we may in fact have an arrangement already worked out, including a set price, on a final sale following the loan period?

Who knows, maybe we'll get out the Yanks' cheque book and match the highest bid?

Who knows, maybe Kia will be in jail by then for money laundering at Corinthians?

Who knows, maybe Mascherano will turn out to be every bit the mercenary you imply him to be and we say good riddance?

The point is, you've come up with yet another wildly speculative and overwhelming negative scenario based on nothing but your own paranoia about what may or may not happen in a year's time. Just take a deep breath and unclench the sphincter, lad...we're going to be alright! :suspect:

by **LFC2007** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:35 pm

Penguins wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
Penguins wrote:So you honestly think if Manure and Chelski bid £30m Masch would tell Kia to jump and insist on a £20m move to Liverpool?

Not going to happen.
1st of all Tevez for example will be at United and if Kia who own both players tries to persuade masch how good it would be if those 2 would play again together. Then there is Tevez who will try and tell his friend masch how great it is at utd.

kia will kindly but bluntly tell masch that Liverpool has not bid enough and Liverpool has no say whatsoever where he goes.
Liverpool will not be an option and we can't keep him cause we will not own his registration or the right to the player.

Very naive to think just cause he played a season for Liverpool he would tell Kia and tevez to go to **** and refuse to go any other place. It's MSI who totally and fully owns the player and has actually more influence on the player than a club would have.

It's not like Cissé who we had to sell cause we didn't want him and his contract was running down. And Cissé could just force liverpool to sell him to Marseille.

Masch has no number of years to his contracts with MSI!
He is owned completely and MSI has no need to sell or are forced to sell cause they have all the time in the world.

Like Tevez has told the press that Kia is the person he trust the most and listens to his advice I am 100% certain that masch does the same.

So, you're saying that it's inconceivable that Mascherano would want to stay with us rather than go to the highest bidder? You must think him a real mercenary? Personally, I've seen nothing but gratitude and praise toward Liverpool from the lad and I think that will be a back factor when his loan period draws to a close.

As for the intricacies of his contract with KIA, I don't doubt that they have a bit more leverage than the average club but, come on, are they really going to present one of their prized assets with such a stark ultimatum? If their relationship is as good as you imply then they will be prepared to listen to the players wishes. It may require us to pay a bit more to keep the lad then we had hoped but, if he wants to stay, I think it can be worked out that he will say. I'll say it again, he's under contract but he's not a slave and KIA, I'm sure, will not be permitted to treat him as such.

And I'm saying if Manure bid £30m and we bid £20m there is no chance that MSI will bend to Masch's wishes if it means a difference of £10m.

Masch is not a Liverpool player. He is on loan from MSI who owns him and has all through his carreer decided that he should move from River to Corinthians and then to WH just like Tevez.

That tells me both trust Kia's judgement and that what MSI says goes. It's not about putting a stark ultimatum on Masch.
So far Masch has signed a life long deal with MSI which means they decide where he goes. There is just no way MSI will just say:
"Yes, Masch just cause you have played a season at Liverpool and like it we will take a 10m loss on our investment in you"

DREAM ON!

If on the other hand the bids might come close then I could see masch's wishes make a difference.
But if we haven't agreed a set price and Chelski, Manure, Inter etc bid £30m it's either we cough up the money or we loose the player. Sure if we bid £29m it could make a difference but it's not like masch will go on a strike and refuse every other big club in the world.
So very naive

From Joorabchian on third party ownership:

"It does not give you any right to influence when he can play or where he should play"

Mascherano wanted to come to England, if he wants to stay at Liverpool he will. He will not be forced to accept a move to another club if he doesn't want to move.

by **Owzat** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:53 pm

Just to mention on the 'forcing Masch to play for the highest bidder' debate, did not West Ham bid £17m for Bent and Bent refused? spudz held out to pay less and eventually it worked out near enough the same fee but as I understand it Bent wanted to play for someone other than West Ham.

I also hear Man City put in a late 36m euro bid for Torres............ smaller clubs think a larger value bid will beat off bigger clubs but it doesn't always work like that

by **puroresu** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:22 pm

Can anyone honestly say Tevez and Mascherano had West Ham at there top of the list of clubs they wanted to play for? I think both trust there agent very much and thats why they went. Of course both players have some influence in where they play and wont just go anywhere. Tevez said he feels attached to West Ham but MSI wont be letting him stay there on the cheap. Money counts.

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