Liverpool FC Forum

by **Stu.Murph** » Thu May 03, 2007 9:54 pm

bigmick wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:It would be nice to see if Stu stopped using language that undermines his argument, e.g. ' you generally talk sh!te'.

Unfortunately mate, that's the way he communicates with people. I actually think that the respect he is held in on here is way below what it could be, purely because Stu lets himself down with playground language and put downs. He does talk some sense about football though there's no doubt about it, though I must confess while I often agree with the basic thrust of his point I usually take issue with most of the detail (I'm a firm Sissoko advocate and I wouldn't swap Crouch for Ashton etc etc).
All that said, I've made no secret of the fact that despite his unnecessary rants and insults at times, I think he adds a whole lot to the forum in the periods which he is not banned. His vernacular is what it is and my suspicion is it will never change.
He, in a forum sense is like a serial offender. On a good day a loveable rogue, on a bad one a pain in the erse and out of order. For my part I don't mind it when he goes for a Man U fan, Lando, Leon, or Murph, or even myself as we're big enough and daft enough to take the knocks. From this evidence, LFC 2007 can look after himself as well which is cool. My problem normally is when threads get blocked up with insults from an argument which actually has it's roots in a spat from six months ago, or when there is the faint smell of bullying in the air.
Recently I've been the one dishing the cards out to him which is not good as I'm the guy who generally sticks up for him. No doubt at some stage he'll get kicked off again, he'll say "that's it stick it up your erse I'm never coming back" and that'll be it. The mods will PM each other and say "feck him". Then six months later he will come back "any chance lads?" and we'll all look at each other and say "go on then but no fecking around this time". And off he goes and we'll probably be back to square one again within a couple of weeks.
Death, taxes and such scenarios have a tinge of inevitability about them unfortunately. Unfair as it may seem, I'll probably be one of the mods saying yeah go on let him back in as well, even though it'll probably be me who bans him i the frst place .

by **dawson99** » Thu May 03, 2007 9:54 pm

should be 'enough said'

so... would u sell momo and buy hargreaves stu? Even though wed have to spend about 10 million more? is hargreaves 10 million better than momo?

What about Etoo, would you take him?

by **Stu.Murph** » Thu May 03, 2007 10:07 pm

dawson99 wrote:should be 'enough said'

so... would u sell momo and buy hargreaves stu? Even though wed have to spend about 10 million more? is hargreaves 10 million better than momo?

What about Etoo, would you take him?

I wouldn't touch Hargreaves with a fifty foot pole. Yet another overated player much like Lampard.

Very very much like Robbie Savage only with more pace and can carry a ball. Wouldn't an improvement on Sissoko for me.

As for Etoo I doubt thats realistic.

On another note...

Joey Barton has a £5,500,000 release clause in his contract... :laugh:

by **RUSHIE#9** » Thu May 03, 2007 10:09 pm

Stu.Murph wrote:
dawson99 wrote:should be 'enough said'

so... would u sell momo and buy hargreaves stu? Even though wed have to spend about 10 million more? is hargreaves 10 million better than momo?

What about Etoo, would you take him?

I wouldn't touch Hargreaves with a fifty foot pole. Yet another overated player much like Lampard.

Very very much like Robbie Savage only with more pace and can carry a ball. Wouldn't an improvement on Sissoko for me.

As for Etoo I doubt thats realistic.

On another note...

Joey Barton has a £5,500,000 release clause in his contract...

Could we afford his solicitors pay packet as well though??

by **redtrader74** » Thu May 03, 2007 10:11 pm

Stu.Murph wrote:
dawson99 wrote:should be 'enough said'

so... would u sell momo and buy hargreaves stu? Even though wed have to spend about 10 million more? is hargreaves 10 million better than momo?

What about Etoo, would you take him?

I wouldn't touch Hargreaves with a fifty foot pole. Yet another overated player much like Lampard.

Very very much like Robbie Savage only with more pace and can carry a ball. Wouldn't an improvement on Sissoko for me.

As for Etoo I doubt thats realistic.

On another note...

Joey Barton has a £5,500,000 release clause in his contract...

that much for bail? :nod

by **Ace Ventura** » Thu May 03, 2007 11:38 pm

I have been reading this with interest, btw apologies for any spelling mistakes i have been on the vodka for a few hours.
Stu you stand up for what you believe in but you for a lot of this are spouting sh!t, just to back up your initial statements, sort of like kewell_7 with his about Robbie.

In this thread you have compared our last two managers, now i am not one of the Houllier critics i think AT THAT TIME he did a very good job and was gutted that he made the mistakes with his transfers in that ill fated pre-season.
But to say that Rafa and Ged had comparable records in there first three seasons is nowhere near correct imo.
Yes Houllier was making steady progress but Rafa has already won the European cup once, the F.A cup in his second season with a great points total in the league and despite mistakes this year which i agree with you and peewee amonst others on...he has still taken us to the final of the biggest competition a club can play in.
Fair enough you have your opinions on signings, all of them debatable in my book but possibly your right, but this season you have criticised the majority of Rafa's signings (some justified) when we have reached the final of Europe's elite competition.
Everything isnt rosey as you keep putting it, but if you took time away to read some of your posts, some would think you were talking about Everton or another mid table club.
Lets hope that Rafa learns a big lesson with his league selections, or that we have a stronger squad to be able to rest the players when the boss feels next season, but to call out the manager repeatedly and do it while saying we should have Dean Ashton or Anelka (decent players) but hardly players the rest of the big guns are looking at signing is just ridiculous, yes you have your opinion, and yes as you say rafa's not always right, but if he brings homw no6 will you pack in this bizarre onslaught against our world class manager ?

by **The Manhattan Project** » Thu May 03, 2007 11:40 pm

Joey Barton should be in borstal, not playing football.

Stuart Pearce suspended him when Barton said "Who's Da Daddy? Huh? Who's Da Daddy?"

by **Stu.Murph** » Thu May 03, 2007 11:49 pm

Ace Ventura wrote:I have been reading this with interest, btw apologies for any spelling mistakes i have been on the vodka for a few hours.
Stu you stand up for what you believe in but you for a lot of this are spouting sh!t, just to back up your initial statements, sort of like kewell_7 with his about Robbie.

In this thread you have compared our last two managers, now i am not one of the Houllier critics i think AT THAT TIME he did a very good job and was gutted that he made the mistakes with his transfers in that ill fated pre-season.
But to say that Rafa and Ged had comparable records in there first three seasons is nowhere near correct imo.
Yes Houllier was making steady progress but Rafa has already won the European cup once, the F.A cup in his second season with a great points total in the league and despite mistakes this year which i agree with you and peewee amonst others on...he has still taken us to the final of the biggest competition a club can play in.
Fair enough you have your opinions on signings, all of them debatable in my book but possibly your right, but this season you have criticised the majority of Rafa's signings (some justified) when we have reached the final of Europe's elite competition.
Everything isnt rosey as you keep putting it, but if you took time away to read some of your posts, some would think you were talking about Everton or another mid table club.
Lets hope that Rafa learns a big lesson with his league selections, or that we have a stronger squad to be able to rest the players when the boss feels next season, but to call out the manager repeatedly and do it while saying we should have Dean Ashton or Anelka (decent players) but hardly players the rest of the big guns are looking at signing is just ridiculous, yes you have your opinion, and yes as you say rafa's not always right, but if he brings homw no6 will you pack in this bizarre onslaught against our world class manager ?

Its not an onslaught ace.

It never was.

Under Houllier I was accussed of blind faith. Again, it never was.

Like I said a million times, I cannot accept an unbalanced arguement where this club and its staff (past and present) is involved.

With Houllier I was absoloutely sickened by the way people hated the man. He done his best an give it his all. In the end he didn't quite cut it, but we had some :censored:

boss nights along the way (maybe some people don't appreciate it as they were not there).

Under Benitez, at times its been amazing, but the fact is the league form with the exception of last season has been a very very average and I'm sick of the everything is rosey and "in rafa we trust" brigade. Its the same people who were slagging Houllier for doing a similar thing.

I've said it time and time again. We spend £30,000,000 in the summer and moved backwards. We are clearly by a massive distance in my view alot worse a side than we were at the end of last season. We've not even stagnated, we've gone backwards?

How can I not question that?

Benitez is CLEARLY a better manager than Houllier and of course he deserves time and patience but he doesn't deserve blind faith and isn't above critisism. He's also made alot of :censored:

poor signings or signings that off nothing more than we already have.

Its in the market I question his ability, unfortunately I think I'm about to be proven right this summer. If this does happen, serious questions need to be asked. Simple as that ace.

by **Sabre** » Thu May 03, 2007 11:55 pm

Benitez is CLEARLY a better manager than Houllier and of course he deserves time and patience but he doesn't deserve blind faith and isn't above critisism

I agree, but, who said that?

When I have a look to the English press, Rafa gets stick due to tinkering and overrotation. He receives stick for playing Gerrard in the right.

When I hear to ex reds, Aldo delivers stick. Toshack this week in my local newspaper remembers that we win finals in penalties. And gives his dosis of stick, despite he's bloody happy with the result.

When I read this forum, I see people who are not convinced with Rafa's performance in the Premiership.

Which is nice.

But the so called rosey brigade does give the man the credit he deserves. I haven't read that he's above criticism nor he doesn't make mistakes.

The funny thing is that we agree more than we admit here.

by **Stu.Murph** » Thu May 03, 2007 11:59 pm

Sabre wrote:
Benitez is CLEARLY a better manager than Houllier and of course he deserves time and patience but he doesn't deserve blind faith and isn't above critisism

I agree, but, who said that?

When I have a look to the English press, Rafa gets stick due to tinkering and overrotation. He receives stick for playing Gerrard in the right.

When I hear to ex reds, Aldo delivers stick. Toshack this week in my local newspaper remembers that we win finals in penalties. And gives his dosis of stick, despite he's bloody happy with the result.

When I read this forum, I see people who are not convinced with Rafa's performance in the Premiership.

Which is nice.

But the so called rosey brigade does give the man the credit he deserves. I haven't read that he's above criticism nor he doesn't make mistakes.

The funny thing is that we agree more than we admit here.

Maybe so Sabre but theres a horrible biased in the way its wrote which I cannot stand.

And when people say things like "do you know more than Benitez" it just fuels the arguement into a petty childish fight.

"Anyone can learn anything from anybody at anytime about anything".

by **red37** » Fri May 04, 2007 12:18 am

'Anytime, anyplace...anywhere'

by **Scottbot** » Fri May 04, 2007 1:08 am

Stu.Murph wrote:Under Houllier I was accussed of blind faith. Again, it never was.

Like I said a million times, I cannot accept an unbalanced arguement where this club and its staff (past and present) is involved.

With Houllier I was absoloutely sickened by the way people hated the man. He done his best an give it his all. In the end he didn't quite cut it, but we had some boss nights along the way (maybe some people don't appreciate it as they were not there).

Under Benitez, at times its been amazing, but the fact is the league form with the exception of last season has been a very very average and I'm sick of the everything is rosey and "in rafa we trust" brigade. Its the same people who were slagging Houllier for doing a similar thing.

I've said it time and time again. We spend £30,000,000 in the summer and moved backwards. We are clearly by a massive distance in my view alot worse a side than we were at the end of last season. We've not even stagnated, we've gone backwards?

How can I not question that?

Benitez is CLEARLY a better manager than Houllier and of course he deserves time and patience but he doesn't deserve blind faith and isn't above critisism. He's also made alot of poor signings or signings that off nothing more than we already have.

Its in the market I question his ability, unfortunately I think I'm about to be proven right this summer. If this does happen, serious questions need to be asked. Simple as that ace.

Stu lad, there's no doubt (in my mind) you are a lot harder on Benitez than you ever were on Ged. In houliier's last 2 seasons (18 months or so) you pretty much stuck up for him by yourself in the face of some very drab (and sometimes terrible) performances and also some pretty awful stuff that got posted on here. It does strike me that your patience with Rafa is considerably less than with Houllier? Is that a fair comment?

In both cases you were (are) playing devils advocate in that your opinion is going against the grain somewhat and i'm wondering if you simply love the fight? check that, i know you love the fight! During those last 18 months (and they were pretty awful) of Ged you backed him to the absolute hilt while everyone else was screaming for his head. Granted the 'trust in Rafa' brigade can get up ya nose because clearly we have not performed in the league this season but we have still out-performed (comfortably) the Liverpool team team of Ged's last season and a half (you were still a big Ged fan throughout this period and did not voice many doubts or criticisms) . If Rafa was getting criticised by all and sundry this season would you be joining in or defending the boss? Is some of your criticism a direct response to the 'rose tinted' brigade that you have said you don't like?

by **LFC2007** » Fri May 04, 2007 1:33 am

In reply to your post Stu....

1) Re. the Man Utd. home match. Despite being a poor match as a spectacle, Liverpool had by far the better chances and by far the better performance. I seem to remember Bellamy running Vidic ragged at times. You say we created 'ONE' chance by Crouch, I distinctly remember Kuyt coming inches away from slotting the ball in the back of the net after a neat move from Bellamy. To back this up with stats: we had 4 shots on target to Man Utd's 2, 4 blocked shots to Man U's 1, we had 12 corners to Man Utd's two. We also shaded the possession. It was not a game of many chances but we outplayed them, especially in the second half. We didn't take our chances, but Crouch might have scored had it not been for a world class save from Van der Saar.

2) Re. the Arsenal match, you say 'I've not seen Arsenal EVER perform like that'. I seem to recall seeing a number of poor Arsenal performances this season, hence why they're 4th and out of all the cups. Liverpool played excellent on that day, in particular I would cite Crouch who scored a complete hatrick. You seem more interested in denigrating the performance of the away team than giving credit to a genuinely good Liverpool performance.

3) Re. the Chelsea match, we outplayed chelsea, it was an excellent performance. Yes, they had some key players missing but I seem to remember us winning the champions league with a horrendous injury situation. I don't know where these negative impulses come from but if that wasn't a good performance against Chelsea, how about the times in the FA cup, champions league and Charity shield? I suppose Chelsea weren't interested in any of those games either.

4) You completely fail to address my points in my earlier posts regarding the comparitive records. As I said, read them carefully, your thought process is to ignore then assume.

5) Benitez has achieved European football every season, fact. The rules were altered because of the absurdity of the situation - UEFA agreed. It was only by winning the competition - an unbelievably hard task - did we get the chance to make us eligible for the following seasons competition. If Houllier had come anywhere close to winning it in the years we did not qualify via the league, then UEFA would probably have deemed us eligible for the following season. As it happens, he came nowhere close to winning it, hence he didn't give us the opportunity to be eligible for the following year. These are the facts, this is not a one sided argument, it is the reality of the facts.

6) To your retort re Alonso: 'Alonso a bargain'. Michael Carrick £18m a bargain??

7) 'as for Sissoko and Agger... Liverpool FC will never win the league with those two players in the first team week in week out'

I'm sorry Mystic Stu, but nobody, not even YOU can foresee the future. Your post should read like this....

'as for Sissoko and Agger... In my opinion Liverpool FC are unlikely to win the league with those two players in the first team week in week out'

8) 'Agger is certainly nowhere near as good as Sami was in his pomp'

We signed Hyypia when he was 25, Agger is 22. You are comparing a more experienced Hyypia to a younger Agger who hasn't developed fully yet. Unless of course you are suggesting Hyypia was in his 'pomp' at Willem II aged 22

It makes no sense Whatsoever!

9) Regarding player 'Potential', you said:

'You don't even know what potential is'

Refer to my previous posts.

Apologies Master Stu, I forgot about your 'professional' contacts.

10) No-one can definitively state anything in life regarding the future (unless you're Mystic Stu). It's not a sit on the fence argument - it is the concrete truth. Please refer to my last post for a more detailed answer on this.

11) Re. kuyt: It was you who said

'you are clearly impressed with a £10m striker who scores 13 goals'

You have also said in previous posts that 'a striker will be judged on the number of goals he scores'.I compared Schevchenko, a 'world-class striker' to Kuyt by YOUR definition. I made the comparison based on what YOU view a striker to be judged on. Therefore by your very own definition, Kuyt is three times better. I'd also cite a post made by Bad Bob regarding this in another thread.The emphasis being that Schevchenko and Ballack are considered 'World-class' but have hardly made Chelsea any better.

'To compare Kuyt to Schevchenko is laughable'

WHY??? Kuyt's impact has been arguably better than Schevchenko's in their first seasons in English football.It is irrelevant as to their individual ability if the impact is the same!
I would again refer you to a post made by Bad Bob.

12) ' How do you make out Benitez's circumstances are worse'

READ MY POSTS, what is your problem, I have addressed this twice before in detail.

After reading your post
It is clear to me that :

a) You don't read my posts carefully or have a problem in understanding my posts.

b) You make assumptions about my posts.

c) You should apply to be Chief talent scout for the FA, or when the Liverpool job comes around maybe you could get your 'professional' contacts to put in a good word!

d) You are still unable to distinguish between Wind, Rain, Sunshine and 'Whether'.

by **66-1112520797** » Fri May 04, 2007 6:46 am

I can see where Stu is coming from initially, it seems the more the debate goes on the more he's pushed into a corner. Thus his comments to me are sounding harsher and harsher on the manager as the debate goes along.

Both of you offer have very valid points indeed, but LFC2007 (btw your posts are excellent) be honest the domestic campaign hasnt quite lived upto expectations. Forget Europe for a minute and think about the gap in points between us and United. The points difference now currently stands at a massive 18 points, last season we finnished 9 points behind the winners Chelsea. Rafa said the season before he would cut Chelsea's whoppping 30 point gap down, which he did to the 9 points in the 2005/2006 season. Since spending around 30 million pounds in the summer of 2006 we now find ourselves 18 points behind.

So with the money he spent and the gap closed I think it was fair to say we could at least make a fight for the prem, maybe not winning it but putting up a good fight. Instead we were out of the race in October, so for all the fancy gloss you can put on it, its still a big dissapointment to concede the title in such a weak manner. Alot of the blame has to go down to the manager for this, while it seems he's grasped the tactical knowledge and know how of Europe, it doest look as obvious domestically.

At times he's come accross as naive or stubborn infact with his team selections, formations even substitutions and what not. I have to remember the frustrating moments of not beating Villa away, and City away, I feel the need to remember dire performances away to the Mancs, Arsenal and Everton. Just to keep a little more perspective on things and not get carried away and look at things through a shade of Red.
I think Rafa is a great manager and I think now the Prem is going to be the real tester to see for me if he can go from great to legend.

I dont agree with Stu about Agger and some of the things he says about the players, I think we CAN win a league title with Agger in the team and Momo in the squad. Defensively there is nothing wrong with us, so his continual posts about Agger not being good enough in a title winning team are nothing short of c.rap if I'm being brutally honest.

I agree with him about Kuyt though, through all the Dutchmans hard work he does lack a bit of guile and flair and for me he shouldnt be an automatic starter week in week out as he has been. Thats just my personal opinon, on the other hand I think Crouch is a very good buy and he fits into our system very well, some might say Kuyt does. For me and everyone else its obvious we need creativity and a bit more flair upfront or out on the wings, once we've got two or three "quality" first teamers I think we'll be ready for a better challenge next year.

But I did find myself saying that last summer, Pennant has taken a while to settle, Bellamy for all his hard work and running doesnt seem to fit the system that we play to well. Gonzalez has been very dissapointing to say the least, Zenden, well is just Zenden and average run of the meal player who has slotted in due to Kewells absence and because Gonzalez hasnt shown much promise. Aurelio when not been injured has been okay nothing more.

So we've all said at one time or another, its a big summer for Rafa in the transfer market to get it right. Then the question has to be asked is: 'weather' Rafa has learned not to "over rotate" especially through out the early months of the footballing calender. I dont know if he will as I said earlier he is stubborn and sticks by his methods, but they didint work this season so he'll have to surely go about things different this time around. Next season I'd like us to go away to places like Villa and Bolton without worrying how to stop them from playing, I think teams like them should worry about how we're going to play and set-up, be a bit more positive.

by **duk** » Fri May 04, 2007 9:14 am

So how many players do people think we HAVE to keep if we want to win the league??
How many of our players can we not improve on??

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