Liverpool FC Forum

Sabre wrote:LFC2007, that was a class post. You might notice some of us are orange, and others green, the premium membership is something that it used to be given to those posters who have more than 1 houndred posts and their content is good.

Well, that's bóllocks I'd give you that status now if it was up to me, because you've put perfectly what I tried to put in 78 posts. Excellent points.

Rafa-Dodd wrote:In all fairness to both Stu and LFC2007 I think they have both put their points across and are both a credit to the forum. Even more so if Stu can stop his petty insults.

Cracking reading this thread.

And I agree with everything LFC2007 has said in the above post.

Stu.Murph wrote:No european trophy (which is a hell of a lot easier to win these days)

ConnO'var wrote:LFC2007,

I like your style of posting mate...... Don't agree with you on quite a few points (I'm in the "Rafa's style is not suitable for LFC" camp) but it's nice to see well argued/discussed posts.....

Welcome lad..... look forward to read more from you.....

LFC2007 wrote:It would be nice to see if Stu stopped using language that undermines his argument, e.g. ' you generally talk sh!te'.

Unfortunately mate, that's the way he communicates with people. I actually think that the respect he is held in on here is way below what it could be, purely because Stu lets himself down with playground language and put downs. He does talk some sense about football though there's no doubt about it, though I must confess while I often agree with the basic thrust of his point I usually take issue with most of the detail (I'm a firm Sissoko advocate and I wouldn't swap Crouch for Ashton etc etc).
All that said, I've made no secret of the fact that despite his unnecessary rants and insults at times, I think he adds a whole lot to the forum in the periods which he is not banned. His vernacular is what it is and my suspicion is it will never change.
He, in a forum sense is like a serial offender. On a good day a loveable rogue, on a bad one a pain in the erse and out of order. For my part I don't mind it when he goes for a Man U fan, Lando, Leon, or Murph, or even myself as we're big enough and daft enough to take the knocks. From this evidence, LFC 2007 can look after himself as well which is cool. My problem normally is when threads get blocked up with insults from an argument which actually has it's roots in a spat from six months ago, or when there is the faint smell of bullying in the air.
Recently I've been the one dishing the cards out to him which is not good as I'm the guy who generally sticks up for him. No doubt at some stage he'll get kicked off again, he'll say "that's it stick it up your erse I'm never coming back" and that'll be it. The mods will PM each other and say "feck him". Then six months later he will come back "any chance lads?" and we'll all look at each other and say "go on then but no fecking around this time". And off he goes and we'll probably be back to square one again within a couple of weeks.
Death, taxes and such scenarios have a tinge of inevitability about them unfortunately. Unfair as it may seem, I'll probably be one of the mods saying yeah go on let him back in as well, even though it'll probably be me who bans him i the frst place      .

LFC2007 wrote:

Stu.Murph wrote:

LFC2007 wrote:If you look at my argument as a whole, which you have not comprehensively responded to then I think you will see my points very cleary and in direct response to the points you have made. In your last post directed at me you have not addressed the points I made, for example........ I have addressed the point you made about the similarity of the first three seasons under Houllier to that of Benitez, I have shown the distinct difference between them and it is plain and clear in my argument.

You've addressed the point in the similarities?



You mean you've put your own slant on things. Under Benitez we struggle against the Mancs and against the good sides. Under Houllier we didn't, under Houllier we won a cup treble. Under Benitez we haven't. Under Houllier we picked up some absoloute bargains, under Benitez we haven't.

Of course I rate Benitez higher than Houllier, Its plain to see. But the facts speak for themselves and there records to date are very very similar no matter how you choose to distort it or hide that fact.

Also, the reason I completely couldn't be bothered to address your points is your rediculous attitude towards the club. Its clear you can't see where we have gone wrong and its clear you're impressed with a 10,000,000 striker who scores 13 goals, its also clear you don't understand or have any knowledge of player developement, player ability, attributes, consistency or potential.

LFC2007 wrote:Your perception of my argument is out of context, I was talking about Benitez in the context of his successes, his prior experiences and the evidence that supports his credentials e.g. two European cups in three years, an FA cup, a record premiership points total.

Houllier gained one point less in his third season with 81 points. He also won an FA cup, a league cup, and a Uefa cup
and signed alot of good players for a lot less money in this period. ALOT of which were excellent value and improved the squad and team. His record is more than comparible to what Benitez has done so far.

Again, I point out there are two sides to every arguement and you completely neglect the other side. Like I said, I don't for a second think Houllier's better than Benitez, I'm simply pointing out that your attitude difference  to the two managers has absoloutely no foundation.

LFC2007 wrote:Please tell me exactly where I have questioned your personal credentials in judging the game. I have merely stated the credentials of Benitez, this is something you have misconstrued in your post.

LFC2007 wrote:but nobody can categorically say he WILL be this or he WILL NOT be that

You clearly did say. You seem to think its an opinion, its not an opinion at all. As I've explained many a time in stupid discussions with idiots who clearly don't understand the game, players have attributes and qualities.

It takes a level of judgement. If its about "opinions" then what you are saying is if I said I had the potential to be better than Vieira I couldn't be wrong because you can't have a "wrong opinion" by definition. The fact is players are better than other players and thats why certain teams beat others.

Football's so misunderstood its unreal. You don't go from being a poor passer of a ball to a great passer of a ball, players don't change mould, qualities and attributes (unless its physical due to growth/age). A player like Alonso will always be a good passer with excellent vision, Steven Gerrard as a reserve still had an excellent strike, pass, tackle etc etc etc, he still gives the ball away cheaply and is occassionally tunnel visioned.

Players have never and will never ever as long as football exists become something they aren't and gain attributes they clearly don't have.

LFC2007 wrote:Benitez is a top, top manager and we are not privy all the information he has at his disposal for example, what goes on behind the scenes, the reasons for his decisions or for example detailed scout reports that form part of the basis on why he signs a player. 

It is not about being 'boring and tedious', its about being realistic and contextual in assessing his performance as manager.

I do not blindly follow Benitez, I put his progress at the club in context, you do not, and that's the fundamental crux of the argument.

What relivance is any of that?

I don't put his performance in context?

You're the one saying his acheivements so far are so much more worthy of praise than what Houllier done. Not me.

I personally don't see a massive improvement. The personel in the first 11 under Houllier was far better infact and that team of players had far more ability. Had Benitez had that team I've no doubt he'd have cracked it, but the question is can he build a team as good as that? My answer would be extremely doubtful which is the exact reason he deserves this summer and next season before serious questions have to start being asked. Signings like Crouch, Kuyt, Bellamy, Sissoko, Agger etc etc are not acceptable when there are better players out there going for less money. Simple as that. I don't care if "they've done alright". "Doing alright" doesn't make you into a player you aren't.

LFC2007 wrote:I have never stated that the signings Benitez has made are good enough to win us the league - that is an assumption you have made. What I have said is that he has made some quality signings, some poor signings, and some who would be too premature to judge. I have also put these signings in the context of a) the budget b) signings made by previous managers c) signings made by fellow managers.

Firstly its is NEVER to early to make a judgement on a player. After 10 minutes I can tell you weather a player is good enough. As soon as I saw Alonso at home to Norwich I knew for a fact we had a player. Simple as that.

It doesn't take a genius to spot a good player. It takes an objective evaluation and going and watching a match live. decent players do the expected things at the expected times, Great players do things that you don't see and expect.

Players like Sissoko and Agger have ability, but they aren't and never will be top players and no "remember Henry and Pires" arguements wil ever wash with me. The fact Is I remember Henry clearly. I remember him coming over and getting stick for being the countries joint to goalscorer which peole seem to conve0niently forget. The fact is players obviously become better with confidence and age as they learn more about themselves and learn more about what they are good at, but there attributes as a whole don't fluctuate much at all. Carragher was always excellent defensively and made good decisions.

LFC2007 wrote:You are entitled to your opinion as to whether Benitez is capable of building a side capable of winning the premiership - I have merely put this in context (yet again), for example it took Ferguson (at a time when the league was weaker than it is now) 5 years to build a team capable of winning titles on a consistent basis, at that time he had the largest budget in the league aswell. I am saying that I would rather wait another season or two for him to build his side and develop the way he sees fit. It would be crazy (in my opinion) to change the manager, of which there are none, who could replace Benitez under the circumstances and do a better job. It would throw us back another decade.

If you had an ounce of self-discipline you wouldn't see the need to be so petty with your comments.If you read my posts carefully you will find the answers to your lengthy posts every single time.

In a concise response to your post................

1) Under Benitez our performances against the top sides in the premiership have been below par. The trend, however, has been improving. This season we outplayed Man Utd at home and deserved to win, we beat Chelsea 2-0 at home and deserved something from Stamford Bridge and then thrashed Arsenal 4-1. We were poor against Arsenal away, Man Utd away and Arsenal in the cups. However, under Houllier we played a far weaker Chelsea and Man Utd side without Mourinho or the likes of Rooney et al. I would rather judge the season as a whole instead of comparing the managers' records over six premiership fixures, the final points total is what counts and Benitez has proven that. Nonetheless I think the trend in performances against top premiership sides will improve. Your definition of 'the good sides' is unclear but I personally consider Juventus, AC Milan, Barcelona and PSV good sides. These are all sides Benitez has beaten, as well as Chelsea twice in the UCL.

2) A cup treble under Houllier was fantastic, a great achievement. Under Benitez we won the UCL after a 21 year absence with a barely capable squad with the loss of Owen and no recognised goalscorer. From a foreign manager in his first season in England, this was an unfathomable prospect the season before. I personally rate the latter a greater achievement in relative terms. Beating the elite of the elite in Europe is a level ahead of achieving domestic cup wins or the Uefa cup victory - in my view.

3) There is a distinct difference in the comparitive managerial records of Houllier and Benitez. Benitez has achieved European football every single season, in a stronger EPL than under Houllier, one without the millions spent by Abramovich. Houllier missed out on Champions league football twice. Benitez won the UCL in his first season, then achieved a record Premiership points total and an FA cup in the second, now we've reached another European Cup final. Houllier never came close to reaching that level of consistency in elite European football. You have come to your own opinions as to what defines success, but the facts are there.

4) Under Benitez we have, in my opinion, made some bargains. I personally consider Agger, Alonso, Sissoko and Macherano bargains. They have shown what they are capable of and as such have played a part in getting us to another European cup final. To date, they have shown their ability and their potential, the extent to which they fulfil their potential is something nobody can definitively foresee. Therefore to say he has made no bargains is a premature and ignorant statement. I recall a young unconfident Jamie Carragher who at the time was considered mediocre, now he is one of the best centre halves in the world. The same applies to a young Patrick Vieira at AC Milan, or even Michael Carrick at West Ham.

4) As I have said on an innumerable number of occasions to which you have ignored, the assessment of signings is subjective with the exceptions of those who are widely considered to be flops e.g. the likes of Diao, Diouf under Houllier or Josemi, Morientes under Benitez. I have said we can agree to disagree about Kuyt - I have no problem. Your opinion is yours and only yours, that does not make it correct nor does it mine. As you rightly point out, Dirk Kuyt cost £10m and has scored 13 goals this season. Andriy Schevchenko, widely regarded during his time at AC Milan as one of the best strikers in Europe cost £30m. To date he has scored 13 goals this season, playing 6 more matches than Kuyt. Therefore, by your very definition of what constitutes a good striker on a value to goals ratio basis, Kuyt is three times better than Schevchenko. Does that make Schevchenko a bad striker?
As you say in your post, I don't have the knowledge of player development, ability, attributes, consistency or potential compared with your plethora of experience and greatness, not to mention your 'professional' contacts. Nevertheless, I don't need to brag with arrogance about my footballing judgement on an internet forum. I'll let the posts speak for themselves, nothing more, nothing less.

5) Your convoluted argument that judging player ability or performance is not a matter of 'opinion' is crazy. You take the example of comparing yourself to Patrick Vieira, firstly it would be unreasonable to make this comparison since he is a professional - you are not. Nonetheless, you can have your own opinion about whatever you like. Others can judge that opinion to be wrong, but that doesn't render the individual's own opinion to be wrong - there is a subtle difference. I remember a famous quote from when I studied Law: ' Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign'. In the extreme circumstance that you have cited you could argue that because Vieira is a professional and you are not, the matter of fact defines Vieira to be the better player. This does not mean that in your own subjective opinion you cannot be better than Vieira, it would merely seem unreasonable to the majority. If you take it to the extreme at the top level i.e . the premiership, it would seem unreasonable,for example, to judge Mark Gonzales to be a better player than Ryan Giggs since it would be hard to justify why. Nonetheless (not my opinion), you could argue that Mark Gonzales has the potential to be better than Giggs, since he is only young, players develop at different times, at different rates and by virtue of the fact that the future is unforeseeable. Others could argue that they believe he lacks the basic ability to reach the same level as Giggs, at the highest level of football nobody can make an objective statement as to whether he will or not. The final judgement lies with Benitez, who by matter of fact is more qualified than any of us. Only on the result of that decision can you hold him accountable.

6) You entirely miss the concepts set out in my posts. Progress is empirical, you say the first 11 under Houllier were far better than now. I'll repeat again, the progress under Benitez is empirical i.e. he has proven it, it is recorded that he has achieved more than Houllier and under more difficult circumstances. You can have the opinion that after '10 minutes' you can judge 'weather' a player is good enough. If your judgement is anything like your spelling, it can't be great! I personally believe you can only have a very limited judgement after ten minutes of seeing a player, for example, that particular player will have to respond differently and play a different strategy against a different side - hence different qualities will be shown. For example, how Alonso plays against Norwich gives you no indication whatsoever as to his ability to play against much harder opposition.

7) I agree with you that the basic level of talent is limited in how far it can improve, there may be physical factors such as height that dictate this e.g. Crouch will never be an Henry because he lacks the physical attributes necessary. However, he has adapted to use his ability in the most effective way possible.Therefore like Henry, Crouch has his own unique role to play in a Liverpool side. So far he has proved his worth - and I'll repeat IN MY OPINION.


Finally, a few things to finish my critique of your post.

Sorry to rain on your parade...... but

It's Whether not 'Weather'.

1. We outplayed United and deserved to win? We created one chance which Crouch missed, they were compeletly untroubled and they put the ball in the net with their chance. If you don't take your chances, you deserve absoloutely what you get. We beat Arsenal 4-1? Did you actually go to that game lad? I've not seen Arsenal (Gallas and Toure especially) EVER perform like that. Not one Arsenal player looked interested and if you think Liverpool looked good on that day then we have completely different standards. As for Chelsea... do me a favour, Cech back in for his first game after months out, no centre halfs and there best midfielder having to play out of position due to them having no centre halfs. Again, it wasn't a good performance and there is absoloutely no context what so ever in your arguement.

2. As I said the record was comparrible as a minimum. Look at the amount of cups won and league placings. End of.

3. Benitez wouldn't have acheived Europe in his first season had the rules not been changed to allow us in. Again you completely neglect the facts of a clearly two sided arguement.
You then harp about consistency?

4. Alonso a bargain at £10,000,000? I like the lad and think he was excellent value but a bargain? Had we got him for £6,000,000 or less I'd agree but come off it, as for Sissoko and Agger... Liverpool FC will never win the league with those two players in the first team week in week out. Agger is certainly nowhere near as good as Sami was in his pomp and thats who he's replacing. Agger and Sissoko are worth what we paid for them. No more, no less. You also keep harping on about weather anyone can see weather someone "will fulfill potential". You don't even know what potential is.

You're saying no-one can definately say this as a sit on the fence style arguement, well I can assure you, just as I said with Phillips, Keane, Finnan, Ashton, Baros, Carragher, Hargreaves, Carrick etc etc etc, that I can definately say how good these players are.

5. I'm not judging Kuyt on goals alone. I'm judging the lad on ability, quality, skill, whatever you want to call it. To compare Dirk Kuyt to a player like Schevchenko is absoloutely laughable and not even worth bothering replying to. Think about what you're saying...

Its like comparing Lampard to Gerrard. The difference in class is plain for all to see.

6. How do you make out Benitez circumstances were worse? Another poor arguement which completely avoids the facts.
You then go on to talk about a players ability...

Don't even bother lad, you've clearly shown you don't understand it so far.

7. Exactly. Players adapt and learn to do what they are good at as players. They don't "improve" attributes greatly if at all. On Crouch, I've said many times, the lads not bad, but he's so limited its unreal, no matter what you look at it he's limited quite badly. He's not a top player and better was available for the same price. A player who is better than Crouch at everything Crouch does aswell as bringing alot more in other departments.

And lastly I couldn't give a flying weather you think my spellings or not. Its readable and thats all it ever needs to be.

Nuff said!