by eds » Mon Apr 30, 2007 4:38 am
Stu.Murph wrote:LFC2007 wrote:Although I am new to internet forums, I didn't anticipate the level of conjecture and supposition posted on this page. I genuinely can't believe it. The stuff that is posted is typically fickle in nature.
For example, how can you make a judgement like 'sissoko was brought in for £5m - why'........' I'd love to see Crouch, Kuyt and bellamy leave'.
Sissoko is 22, he has shown the capacity to play to a very high standard, he has the desire, he has the impetus to play and he gives us a dimension that we didn't have before. Overall I would say he's been our best signing under Benitez second to Alonso and maybe Reina. He came back from a career threatening eye injury, and although his performances have dipped recently he still has the ability (as shown last season) and desire to be an outstanding player now and in future years.
Dirk Kuyt has been one of our best performers this season, he has the desire to win and his all round attributes are outstanding.
You seem to forget that Rafael Benitez won La liga twice and the Uefa cup in the space of three years. He then moved to Liverpool and immediately won the European cup, then the FA cup in the best two finals ever in their own respective competitions. He reached his first 50 premiership victories before both Alec Ferguson and Arsene Wenger and achieved a record Premiership points total last season. Ferguson won nothing in his first four years at Man utd - now he's one of the most successful managers of all time.
Don't you think you should reserve your judgement on the signings he has made and the value he has added to the ones he has sold.
Benitez sold Baros for £6.5m, after winning the champions league in games where Baros played- and in some played well. He unquestionably added value to him during that season, for a player who under Houllier had not performed I'd say a doubling in value is pretty healthy.
There is no point in destroying the progress that has been made under Benitez by making wholesale changes in the summer, Kuyt, Crouch and maybe Bellamy will all have a part to play in the future. It is wise to add a few quality players in required positions but not get rid of key players who have shown their ability.
There also seems to be a very one dimensional aspect in terms of transfers, a 'we should sign this player or that player' attitude - how qualified are you compared to Benitez?.
There are many dimensions to signing a player - not just their on field ability - for example, Houllier passed up the opportunity to sign Lee Bowyer because of his attitude. Benitez will be much the same in his judgements.
I do go to matches at Anfield and I'm glad to say that the real fans of Liverpool know that the club lies in good hands and excellent management. Unlike some of the people on this forum.
Its not fickle at all, to be quite honest I find posts like this absoloutely laughable and am quite happy to rip such posts to shreds.
Lets start at the top, firstly you don't know me, my background, my opinions and my judgement. You also have absoloutely no idea tactically how much I understand the game or to what level I've played the game aswell as who I've coached. You also have no idea what professional's and very well qualified people I actually know and converse with daily.
Now, the answer to all of those maybe none, then again it may be something, however, for you to come on here and judge like that automatically suggests a level of ignorance/ficklness which you are accussing others of so before you endear yourself to long serving members I suggest you sit back read and learn. Granted, you may think you're above learning and know the sport inside out. I'd disagree with you there and say anybody is capable of saying something which triggers a line of thought which before you've never even thought of.
There are many excellent posters on this site with balanced views and people who actually know there football. I suggest you read them before jumping to conclusions.
Now on the first player you mention Sissoko. If you actually care to drag up a Sissoko thread from a about a year ago you will see I pointed out flaws in his game and said the lad will never become "the new Vieira". At the time I was absoloutely slaughtered for these views and called all the names under the sun. Now a year later, alot of people are repeating what I said at the time. IE he's a very good player who can win the ball, has a decent brain but is technically not upto scratch. Now another saying I will point out to you, you can't make diamonds out of shit.
Its the same in football. Professional players never ever learn to be something they aren't. They never become something they were not and are not. IE technically poor players don't become Zidane's, Players like Luis Garcia and Smicer will never become centre halfs. Footballers develop from a very early age which is why alot of teams these days sign players at silly ages.
Now what I've said over the years is players have a level of ability which rarely changes through out a career. It will obviously increase slightly with experience and growth but it can also decrease after injury or if an attitude of a player changes.
If you look at Steven Gerrard now to when he was a young kid in the reserves... as a kid, he was a box to box ball winning midfielder with a sublime shot on him. He had excellent determination and a very good aggression and intensity to his game. He's not the best with his choice of pass but in general is very good. His ability to beat a man has always been decent but not excellent. Now, he's exactly the same only he's 6'1 and build like a brick 
and one of the fastest players in the premier league.
My point? Players don't ever become something they aren't.
What you see, is what you get. They learn to play to their attributes and obviously form a level of consistency in there attributes through training but you will NEVER see a player like Baros learn to play with his head up (if he could just do that he'll be world class, he'll learn they said) He didn't. He was sold. Sissoko (he'll learn to pass and learn the right pass). I've got news for you, he won't. If he can't pass a ball at 22, he's got no chance and for anyone to think otherwise is simply delussional and clueless.
You then go on to Dirk Kuyt. I'm sorry but I completely disagree. He's a good player, nothing more. He doesn't attack his near post, he doesn't anticipate the flight of the ball, he's poor at heading for a premiership striker, he's a decent finisher but doesn't have the ability to consistently get into finishing positions either via pace or by reading the ball quicker than a centre half. He will never consistently score goals against the better sides due to this. He's also got a very heavy first touch and often holds the ball up at times when it would be a hell of a lot better to continue with a quick attack. He often puts a foot on the ball and takes to many touches. Yes he's a trier, yes he's decent, but good enuogh to lead a line at a club like Liverpool?
Owen, Fowler, Rush... Sorry, not even half the player any of those are/were.
What I also don't forget is what Benitez done in Spain. Nore do I actually care anymore. Its about what he's done here and what he's doing now. I am absoloutely fed up with the give him time attitude and the "it took such and such a season or two" excuses. It doesn't, class shows as a manager and as a player. In the league we made unbelievable progress last year. Then I have spend thousands this season (which going back I'd have saved towards my house) watching gutless, spineless and generally poor performances this season from a team who's clearly took two steps backwards.
You then go onto Milan Baros. After Euro 2004 he was valued at around £8,500,000 roughly. After that tournement I again stuck my neck out and said I never saw anything from him in that tournement I didn't see for Liverpool and he'd never make the grade at this club. I was told "give him time, he's potentially world class", I was slated again left right and centre, simply because I could see the lad wasn't good enough. One fool even told me the lad was a better player than Owen. 
Not one to be persueded by mass opinion I stuck to my guns YET AGAIN! As I did with Carragher and Finnan before him and low and behold. Come the summer, everyone realises that despite the euro cup win, in which of course he played his part he was not upto it. Hence the reason he was sold. Under Houllier Baros performed when called upon. The only time he failed to perform was when injured. He was a nothing player in the end. Something I spotted early and was called everything for for saying after he had a good Euro 2004.
Now the progress under Benitez... What progress? This season we've made none. We've gone backwards after going forwards last season. This season has reminded me of Houllier final two seasons if I'm honest. IE NOT GOOD ENOUGH and no european trophy will ever make me think that a step backwards in your "bread and butter" (to quote a genius) is acceptable.
I also CLEARLY DON'T suggest getting rid of key players. I suggest getting rid of weak links. IE our strikers. I also suggest strengthening the area's that need strengthening. A centre half, a left winger (if theres one as good as Kewell that can be found) and AT LEAST 2 strikers. For people to sit there and say Kuyt and Crouch are good enough is madness. The two of them have cost us to many games this season and to many point. Its as simple as that. I remember with Owen and Fowler upfront a few years ago. You could garentee if one didn't score the other would. This strike force simply has nothing approaching that what so ever.
In terms of the rigidness in the transfers and players I'd like to see there are reasons for it all. The style of players important and what he can bring to the team. I'm not some mindless idiot who says "go and sign Defoe and Owen because they're boss" or sign "Ashton and Luca Toni cos they're beasts".
Every player I put forward for debate has a reason, a realistic chance of being signed and has the required quality aswell as style to fit into roles and systems. Its a case of signing players who are better than what you have already but can bring the same things but with more alround quality.
On the subject of "knowing more than Benitez". This is a subject which absoloutely 100% infuriates me and winds me up to boiling point. Did i know Gonzalez was before he signed? Yes, did I know Bellamy wouldn't be the answer, yes again. Did I also know that playing a weakened team against Sheffield United in the first away game of the season was a mistake? Yes. Did I also know that he made these mistakes last season? Yes. Benitez is not infalible and before the Idiots start I'm not saying I know everything Benitez knows nothing. I'm saying Benitez doesn't know everything, gets things wrong and theres certain things he gets wrong that I wouldn't get wrong.
I had a similar conversation with Peewee recently. Anybody can learn anything from anyone if that person has half a clue what they are talking about. Rafael Benitez is absoloutely no different what so ever and it absoloutely smacks of ignorance and stupidity (Peewee take note) when you dismiss something or someone's arguement without even reading it due to having more experience or knowledge about something. I quite often dismiss arguements on here and I'll often rip people to shreds but at no point will I simply ignore the comments made without thinking about them in context.
Benitez bangs on about getting that extra couple of percent out of players due to fitness and rotation aswell. What he then fails to mention is that extra couple of percent you get when players know there role, there team mates roles and attributes around them aswell. IE do you play the through ball for Kuyt to run onto? If you don't know him as a player you may hesitate and blow the chance, you may play it with to much pace on him, you may decide he'd never get it yet he actually would, where as if you play regularly together its a case of the player can usually make the right decision. It happens at every level, be it Sunday league or Premiership. Learning about the players around you.
Also good for you going to games. I'm truely made up for you.
I also attend home, away, europe, home and away and have been to all the cup finals since 94 so don't even try to come across the high and mighty. I'm as scouse as they come and am proud of it aswell.
I'm quite simply not for the everything is rosey in the garden look. I done that under Houllier and I'm never going to fall for that again ever as long as I live.
We haven't won a title in 17 years, we are a hell of a lot further away than we were last season. Now ask yourself why!
Unlucky you say?
Maybe thats the reason we've not won a title in 17 years then. You've cracked it.
Good night!
One of the best posts I have read on this forum.
I agree with almost everything you have stated mated.
There are a lot of sheep on these threads that bah bah the same old :
"In Rafa we trust"
"How can you know more than Rafa? Be quiet"
etc etc etc
Well done Stu!"LIVERPOOL: 6 European Cups, 20 Domestic Titles, 3 UEFA Cups, 8 FA Cups, 10 League Cups and 4 European Super Cups and 1 Club World Championship
All other English clubs pale into insignificance!"
, but lets not get too carried away
