Liverpool FC Forum

by **drummerphil** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 8:06 pm

taken from www.bobpaisley.com...............

Who was the greatest manager - Sir Alex Ferguson or Bob Paisley ?

Manchester United's recent domination of the Premier League Championship has underpinned the claims of Sir Alex Ferguson's legion of supporters that their man is the greatest football manager of all time.

Ferguson supporters point simply to the number of trophies and titles won in a glittering career stretching back over three decades, from the mid 1980s with Aberdeen to the new millennium silverware that glistens in the vaults of Old Trafford. It's a persuasive argument.

By contrast, Liverpool supporters will argue forcibly in favour of the far more gentlemanly Bob Paisley, who secured six top flight league titles for Liverpool in half the time it took the irrascible Ferguson to amass the same number at Old Trafford.

But cold hard logic does not determine greatness in any sport, and football is no exception. Football, by it's very nature, is a passionate and emotional experience, and loyalties owe much to tribal affiliations and the early indoctrination of the young and impressionable mind.

Ask any Nottingham Forest supporter who was the greatest manager of all time and he will say Brian Clough. Arsenal fans might offer Herbert Chapman, Bertie Mee or George Graham. What about Tottenham's Bill Nicholson, Everton's Harry Catterick and Leeds United's Don Revie ? Nor should we confine any shortlist to those who have won shedloads of trophies. What about the managers who haul unfashionable small clubs from the lower divisions to the top or to unlikely cup triumphs ? Is there no legitimate claim for these guys ? Watford supporters ( Graham Taylor ) may say so, and so might those of Swansea City ( John Toshack ) or Wimbledon ( Dave Bassett / Bobby Gould ). And what about those who work tirelessly bringing through young stars of the future whilst simulataneously bringing stability and relative prosperity to their own small time club ? Step forward Crewe Alexandra's Dario Gradi.

Stan Cullis had the foresight to take his Wolverhampton team into European battle before anyone else in England saw the possibilities. Alf Ramsey took an unfashionble club ( Ipswich Town ) to the title and then guided England to World Cup success and while we're talking about England, is the much vaunted title of best ever manager confined only to those who managed in England ? There must be hundreds of managers across the world most of us have never heard of who could lay legitimate claims. In fact we need only peek over the border into Scotland to find one of the greatest names of football management, a name no one could argue with. Jock Stein took Celtic to nine titles in a row and took the first British side ever to European Cup glory, with a Celtic team full of Scottish born players.

Of course, the Scots have always shone brightly in the English game. One, a particluar favourite of mine, won nothing in his first ten years of management, failed to win the European Cup and yet would figure high on my list for the Best Manager Of All Time. You can read all about him at shankly.com. Why Shankly you may ask ? In all honesty, I couldn't give a satisfactory answer other than to say that there are surely clues to be found by comparing the state of a club before the managerial arrival with it's subsequent health after the managerial departure.

As we have already noted, football devotion cannot be analysed in logical terms. Why do thousands of sane people stand on the terraces of no hope clubs week after week, pouring their hard earned money into the bottomless pit that is your average football league club ?

So, lest we continue to go round in circles, let's confine the argument to Paisley and Ferguson. Let's also assume that the best way to measure success is to look at the respective accumulated trophies, disregarding Charity Shields.

Ferguson has amassed a staggering 25 cups in 27 years of management. Between 1974 and 1978 in spells with East Stirlingshire and St. Mirren he won nothing. In the next 8 years between 1978 and 1986 he won a glorious 9 trophies with Aberdeen and of course since then has won 16 with United between 1986 and 2001. Of the 25, 10 have been league titles. Paisley on the other hand won 14 in 9 years at Liverpool, 6 of which were league titles.

So, on the plus side for Ferguson we could say:

He's won 25 cups to date, 11 more than Paisley;
He did it with 2 different clubs, both north and south of the border;
His starting point at Aberdeen and at Manchester United was far lower than Paisley's at Liverpool.

On the plus side for Bob Paisley we could say:

His trophy wins per year average is far greater than Ferguson's.
He won the European Cup three times.
He never had the advantage of managing the world's richest club.
Liverpool's starting point when he took over was so high partly because of the groundwork Paisley had himself done in the boot room. Three of a kind

Furthermore in Bob Paisley's favour is the legacy of success he left behind him at Anfield. The following season after his departure, Joe Fagan guided Liverpool to the first treble in their history with a side largely fashioned under Paisley ( this is not to denigrate in any way Fagan's achievement in managing those players to that unique success ). That Paisley was able to step back in an advisory capacity to help nurture the fledgling managerial career of Kenny Dalglish a couple of years later ( without in any way hampering the young manager ) is futher testimony to his greatness.

It remains to be seen what sort of legacy Sir Alex leaves behind him at Old Trafford. It cannot possibly be as assured as the one Paisley left at Anfield, but we shall see.

And so on and on it goes, argument and counter argument.

Look at the match by match record, the goals for and the goals against. Where does it all lead ? Does a 7:0 win over a bunch of Finnish part-timers beat a 0:0 draw in the Nou Camp ? Does a Liverpool win over Everton equal a Manchester United win over Manchester City ? What about the times when the managers went head to head ? In 1980 Paisley's Liverpool and Ferguson's Aberdeen met in the European Cup. Liverpool won 1:0 at Pittodrie and 4:0 at Anfield. What does this tell us ? Anything ?

We come back to the inescapable conclusion that hard facts and statistics alone cannot win this sort of argument. Both men managed different clubs in different circumstances. They both started out in management in 1974, clashed briefly in that European Cup tie in 1980, but clearly have not run parallel managerial careers. Any statistical comparison is therefore unscientific and flawed from the word go. We come back to the gut feelings, the individual loyalties of the respective fans. Opinion, it would seem, is all.

Incredibly, both of these clubs can boast another worthy candidate each to the title of greatest ever manager. Shankly's great adversary for many years was United's Sir Matt Busby, and many would regard Sir Matt and Shanks as greater than Sir Alex and Bob. ( Isn't it irritating that we have to use 'Sir' prefixes when referring to the Manchester United duo and not the Liverpool guys ? Why is that ? ).

In conclusion, I would love to prove that Bob Paisley was the greatest manager of all time. If I couldn't do that I would love to prove it was Bill Shankly, but I know I can't. I can argue passionately and sincerely for my own particular favourites but supporters of Leicester City, Aston Villa, Blackburn Rovers, Newcastle United, Barnsley, Tranmere and Dagenham & Redbridge will all have their own ideas too. Perhaps we should just acknowledge the greatness of both Ferguson and Paisley ? After all, I would hope that supporters of both clubs would graciously acknowledge the feats of both men.

... but if you ask me, I'd pick 'Sir' Bob every time because 3 european cups says it all.....

by **mighty mo** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 8:12 pm

no doubt bob paisley wins hands down,he won 3 european cups,that puts him up a pedastal alex ferguson cannot reach

by **greenred** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 8:23 pm

These things are all subjective anyway.Shankly for me was a greater manager than Paisley despite never winning the European Cup,but simply because of his great character and effect on the club.Busby was greater than Ferguson cos he produced a great team that was widely loved,while Fergie produced a great team that was hated.

by **liamac** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 8:42 pm

In all honesty if its between Sir Bob or fergie then without being biased as a life long Liverpool supporter id say Sir Bob every time

Paisley didnt break the bank every time he bought a new player

Paisley won more trophies per year he was manager

Paisley didnt need someone to coach his team the way Fergie does i.e. Brian Kid , Steve MaClaren , Queros (queer :censored:

) etc etc , yes Paisley had back room staff but not someone he gave responsibilty to coach tactics etc the way Fergie seems to so heavily rely on

And finally ,Paisley won 3 European cups , something Fergie can only dream of

by **bigmick** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 8:48 pm

I would say it's probably Cloughie in all honesty given the unfashionable clubs with which he was successful.

by **greenred** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:01 pm

bigmick wrote:I would say it's probably Cloughie in all honesty given the unfashionable clubs with which he was successful.

Cloughie was a great manager but he didnt have the same effect as Shankly,Busby or Stein.Those men turned their clubs into institutions on a world wide scale.Clough(despite his success) never achieved anything comparable at Forest or Derby.

by **bigmick** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:08 pm

It just seems incredible that the man could win two Eurpean Cups with Nottingham Forest. Not only that but he had the habit of building his teams on a shoestring, taking unfancied players or those considered well past their best and turning them into World-beaters. He would also have won a European Cup with Derby IMHO had they not been absolutely robbed by a clearly corrupt referee in a semi-final.

by **drummerphil** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:17 pm

Good point mick,i agree about Cloughie where Ferguson is concerned but to be honest forgetting league titles for one minute.........3 european cups in 5 years.......says it all for Paisley.

by **greenred** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:20 pm

bigmick wrote:It just seems incredible that the man could win two Eurpean Cups with Nottingham Forest. Not only that but he had the habit of building his teams on a shoestring, taking unfancied players or those considered well past their best and turning them into World-beaters. He would also have won a European Cup with Derby IMHO had they not been absolutely robbed by a clearly corrupt referee in a semi-final.

His Forest team where the only team we feared during the glory years.No one else came close.There was a two or three year period when they were almost unbeatable.I still remember the shock when they knocked us out in the first round of the European Cup 1980.Im sure that draw was a fix by UEFA cos they knew Liverpool and Forest were head and shoulders above every other team in Europe.It was a bit convenient one of us would go out in the first round.Yeah,great team,bloody great manager.

by **RAFABENITEZ** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 10:25 pm

Fergie is a horrible :censored:

, Paisley wins always, above knighthood

by **yckatbjywtbiastkamb** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:27 pm

bigmick wrote:It just seems incredible that the man could win two Eurpean Cups with Nottingham Forest. Not only that but he had the habit of building his teams on a shoestring, taking unfancied players or those considered well past their best and turning them into World-beaters. He would also have won a European Cup with Derby IMHO had they not been absolutely robbed by a clearly corrupt referee in a semi-final.

yeah clough was a brilliant striker too that often gets overlooked. when he retired in his mid twenties because of a serious knee injury he had a record of something like 260 odd goals in 280 matches or something.
he took two really unfashionable clubs in derby and forest from the lower divisions to the very top echelons of the game, and as i`ve often mentioned when defending our `old` wins, in the late 70`s early eighties players like maradona, cruyff, karl heinz ruminegger, paolo rossi, kempes etc etc plyed their trade in europe.
i think alex fergusons breaking of the old firm monopoly was just as impressive as anything that he`s done with united. and being fair to ferguson his sides always play attractive attacking football, something clough couldnt always claim.
i`m biased though, under bob paisley liverpool were by far the dominant side in european football, after 76 and the uefa cup until he retired bob paisley was in charge of the best side in europe without any doubt. everyone knew it. kinda like milan in the early 90`s.
clough and ferguson couldnt claim that. they won european cups but they weren`t seen as favourites.

by **Mikz** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:40 pm

Paisley for me too over Fergie. He had the midas touch ,and Brian Clough was another. To me ,Altho Fergie was a great manager ,he was rash at times and very lucky in inheriting the young talent that filtered through at Old Trafford. I also believe had Clough or Paisley been in control of that United team ,well they would have won a lot more.

by **XSD** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:42 pm

Shankly over them both, but Paisely over Ferguson obviously.

by **azriahmad** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:19 am

Paisley did not start his managerial career with a 5 season barren run despite buying expensive like Fergie did. No, Paisley started only with a 1 season barren run, bought players wisely and built his team in his own way who then dominated English and European football.

There is simply no doubt who is the greatest. Shanks may have laid on the foundation, but Paisley is the man when it comes to measuring success.

by **NiftyNeil** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:51 am

This argument could run and run. The answer is obviously going to be Paisley, but posted on a manc scum forum, you can bet your bottom dollar that it will be Ferguson.
Personally, I think Shanks was better than Paisley. Shanks laid the foundations. Shankly built a car from scratch, he put all the nuts and bolts in place, he built a magnificent engine, he fine tuned it, and then he raced it. Shanks won a lot of races in his car before handing over the keys to Bob Paisley. Paisley then whacked a spoiler the back, added a couple of go faster stripes, souped up the engine and started racing himself. While Bob won more races than his predecessor, it was still Shankly's car.
If I was to play devil's advocate, I should mention the fact that Alex Ferguson built his own car too, and he won even more races than Bob albeit over a longer period. But sadly Ferguson has not kept up the maintenance and it's getting rusty. It no longer can make those long journeys into Europe because its not reliable anymore.

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Paisley v ferguson - Best ever manager

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