VAR Discussion

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby devaney » Mon Dec 30, 2019 6:32 pm

Yakka so you’d have been quite happy, assuming that we didn’t score again, that we lost the game due to sh1t awful refereeing and an offside goal. VAR is still in its infancy and using modern day technology will take time to perfect. A lot has changed in the 50 years that you have been watching football. Let’s face it moving with the times is important. Just look at Anfield today compared to what it was like in the 70’s. Some people weren’t that keen on floodlights when they first started being used !!
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Man City £307m (£1012m)
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Postby kazza » Mon Dec 30, 2019 6:50 pm

As I said in another thread. Since the defender can score an own goal with his hand it becomes fair play so include that for the offside line, in other words a defenders arm can keep an attacking player onside since it is “fair”. Remember any part of an attacking player that can score a goal is the line they use to determine the offside line (hense the armpit thing), so it should be the same for a defending player but that should include his arm. The result will be that little daylight that we all want and a slight advantage to the attacking player. I think if they did that simple change it would change the whole thing.
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Postby ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:50 pm

devaney » Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:32 pm wrote:Yakka so you’d have been quite happy, assuming that we didn’t score again, that we lost the game due to sh1t awful refereeing and an offside goal. VAR is still in its infancy and using modern day technology will take time to perfect. A lot has changed in the 50 years that you have been watching football. Let’s face it moving with the times is important. Just look at Anfield today compared to what it was like in the 70’s. Some people weren’t that keen on floodlights when they first started being used !!


No one will ever convince me that waiting 3 minutes to celebrate a goal is good for the game. As I said bad decisions were part and parcel of footy, some went against us like John Toshacks goal at Highbury in 1972 and some went for us like Bryan Hamilton's handball in 77.
Bad referring decisions didn't stop football becoming the biggest sport on the planet, in fact they probably helped it, they got people talking about the game and interested in it.
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Postby Penguins » Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:32 pm

Please don't give me the "errors was always made in the game so therefore there should continue to be"
Eh, why have a rulebook in the first place then?
VAR is doing what it was supposed to be doing: enforcing the rules in the rulebook to assist the ref when the human eye can't keep up.
Sure it takes a ridiculous amount of time but it is the FIRST year. In a few years I'm sure it will be much faster and more effective.
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Postby red till i die!! » Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:02 pm

Ruining the game for me. Having to wait to celebrate a goal is just killing it. The time taken the other day over both decisions was just awful  :down:
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Postby Thommo's perm » Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:15 am

I'm personally not ar'sed about VAR. Yes, it is frustrating waiting for a decision on an incident that you might not even know is being looked at. Or a decision you know is incorrect but needs correcting. Or a decision that is made by millimetres. The whole thing is frustrating, but so are referees decisions before and without VAR. They fu'ck up all the time. Always have, always will, because theyre human. Thats an integral part of the game, so even with VAR it is still dependent on humans making decisions.
People wailed and cried at the unfairness of no goal line technology and goals like lampards in the world cup being disallowed. Well now we have the technology to stop that happening but people are still moaning.
The offside rule is constantly being "improved" so get the powers that be to "improve" it again, in accordance with the change in technology?
Simples
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Postby Reg » Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:12 am

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/50944416

VAR 'should not be too forensic' - football law-makers set to issue guidance


Football's law-makers say the video assistant referee system should not be "too forensic" when it comes to offsides - and should only be used to reverse "clear and obvious" errors.

Five goals in the Premier League were ruled out at the weekend for marginal offsides, leading some managers and players to criticise VAR.

Lukas Brud, general secretary of the International Football Association Board, said: "With VAR we see some things that are going in a direction that we may need to re-adjust."

He said the body would reissue guidance on VAR's use after its annual general meeting in February.

"If you spend multiple minutes trying to identify whether it is offside or not, then it's not clear and obvious and the original decision should stand," he said.


He added: "What we really need to stress is that 'clear and obvious' applies to every single situation that is being reviewed by the VAR or the referee.

"In theory, 1mm offside is offside, but if a decision is taken that a player is not offside and the VAR is trying to identify through looking at five, six, seven, 10, 12 cameras whether or not it was offside, then the original decision should stand.

"This is the problem. People are trying to be too forensic. We are not looking to make a better decision, we are trying to get rid of the clear and obvious mistakes.

"If video evidence shows that a player was in an offside position, he was offside full stop. If it's not obvious, then the decision cannot be changed, you stay with the original decision.

"We will be communicating to all competitions that are using VAR some updates in the coming weeks, because we are observing some developments that are not particularly the way they should be."

'Something has to change'

Meanwhile, former top-flight referee Mark Halsey told BBC Radio 5 Live that the Premier League needs to change its use of VAR next season.

"You cannot change it halfway through a season but something has to change at the end of the season and it has to involve players and fans," he said. "VAR is here to stay and, used correctly, it shouldn't be a problem."

Halsey, who officiated in the Premier League from 1999 to 2013, said referees' body PGMOL was "not using it correctly" compared with other countries that have VAR.

"Everywhere else is going to the pitchside monitor and that is not happening [here]," he said.
Marginal offsides are causing particular consternation, with Sheffield United boss Chris Wilder saying VAR was "not helping the game".
Some fans have been singing "it's not football any more" at matches.

Another former Premier League official, Dermot Gallagher, told BBC Radio 5 Live the recent examples had shown "how tight the margins are".
"The technology will get better and the operatives will get better. We've got to allow it a bit of wriggle room. It was never going to be perfect," he said.

"It's frustrating. I think people will get more used to it, people will tinker with the product a little bit and say, 'If we do this it will make it better', and I think it's a combination and with that right combination we will eventually get the right cocktail."

Norwich, Brighton, Crystal Palace, Wolves and Sheffield United all had goals chalked off for offside via VAR at the weekend, with the Blades now having had five goals ruled out for offside - the most of any Premier League team.

They have had a total of seven VAR decisions go against them, more than any other top-flight team.

Halsey said: "We've seen 21 or 22 goals ruled out through offside, but some of them have got to be given as goals because fans are paying a lot of money to watch.

"We don't want to see them ruled out for a toenail or hair. They are goals, and if it's taking so long to judge then you go with the on-field referee.

"We know technology isn't 100%, so where are they drawing these lines? They've been consistent, but it doesn't make it right."

Wolves had two VAR decisions go against them in their 1-0 defeat by Liverpool on Sunday, when VAR ruled that the league leaders' goal should stand and when they also had Neto's equaliser ruled out for a marginal offside.

Captain Conor Coady said the system was "not working" and was "confusing" for players, while Manchester City boss Pep Guardiola said VAR was "a big mess", despite Sheffield United being disadvantaged against his side.

Guardiola said: "Hopefully next season it can do better."

Wilder added: "Yet again we had another goal disallowed by VAR. That's about eight or nine over the weekend, this is not a situation helping the game."

Who has best benefitted most from VAR decisions?

For Against Difference
Stats via Opta as of 30 December 2019
Southampton 6 1 5
Brighton 7 3 4
Man Utd 4 1 3
Liverpool 4 2 2
Bournemouth 3 1 2
Leicester 5 4 1
Tottenham 5 4 1
Burnley 3 2 1
Crystal Palace 3 2 1
Watford 2 1 1
Newcastle 1 0 1
West Ham 4 4 0
Man City 2 3 -1
Aston Villa 1 2 -1
Everton 1 2 -1
Arsenal 1 3 -2
Chelsea 2 5 -3
Norwich 1 4 -3
Wolves 0 5 -5
Sheffield United 1 7 -6
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Postby kazza » Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:35 am

Again I’ll repeat. Use the defenders hands/arms to draw the offside line and for the attacker keep the margin the same and that will give a slight advantage to the attacker. With that rule you can be as forensic as you want and no one would complain as the advantage will be with the attacker. If a defender can score an own goal with his hand and it will not be chalked off then his arm/hand should count for the offside assessment.
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Postby devaney » Tue Dec 31, 2019 2:33 pm

I was at the Wolves game and to be frank Yakka waiting a few minutes to get the correct decision was far more preferable than losing the game. I’m surprised that anybody struggles with that concept. Actually given the extremely annoying goal celebration by Neto it actually added to the enjoyment when the prat’s goal was given offside !! His antics weren’t fully shown on TV. Just because numerous ***** up’s have occurred throughout the history of the game is absolutely no reason to allow it to continue in the same format. Mate at times you come across as a right old dinosaur  :laugh:
Net Spend Over The Last 5 Years (10 years
are in brackets)
LFC £255m (£467m)
Everton £38m (£287m)
Arsenal £645m6 (£925m)
Spurs £510m (£541m)
Chelsea £788m (£1007m)
Man City £307m (£1012m)
Man United £702m (£1249m)
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Postby Penguins » Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:40 am

Ok, so VAR is not supposed to reverse offsides that aren't clear and obvious?
WHERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE FOR THAT?
1 cm or 10 cm or 20 cm?

You use var to check if it was offside or not which means someone will have to translate what VAR should overturn and not overturn.
That makes it even more stupid than it already is.
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Postby Reg » Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:49 am

devaney » Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:33 pm wrote:Mate at times you come across as a right old dinosaur  :laugh:

There's nowt wrong with that!   :laugh:  :buttrock
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Postby devaney » Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:30 am

Penguins » Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:40 am wrote:Ok, so VAR is not supposed to reverse offsides that aren't clear and obvious?
WHERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE FOR THAT?
1 cm or 10 cm or 20 cm?

You use var to check if it was offside or not which means someone will have to translate what VAR should overturn and not overturn.
That makes it even more stupid than it already is.


Now I appreciate that Robbie Savage is not the font of all knowledge but I would expect him to have his facts straight on national radio when he says that CLEAR AND OBVIOUS is not a requirement of the VAR decision making process when it comes to offside. Having said that there seems to be a massive issue with regards to CLEAR AND OBVIOUS in many non offside cases.

Trusting the technology is definitely a concern of mine. Just how good is the technology at determining the exact millisecond  the ball was kicked to establish wether a player is in fact offside ?? If the technology is out even by a minute fraction of a second then a lot of the goals that have been been disallowed by VAR would have stood. Conversely some of the goals that VAR have allowed to stand would have been disallowed. I just hope that they never discover that the technology isn’t sufficiently accurate to measure the millimetres that VAR is dealing in.
Net Spend Over The Last 5 Years (10 years
are in brackets)
LFC £255m (£467m)
Everton £38m (£287m)
Arsenal £645m6 (£925m)
Spurs £510m (£541m)
Chelsea £788m (£1007m)
Man City £307m (£1012m)
Man United £702m (£1249m)
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Postby red till i die!! » Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:29 pm

The biggest problem that football has is not the odd team getting a goal that they shouldn't but stopping the diving/conning cheats that are gaining advantage by doing so. Players hitting the ground rolling and screaming at the slightest tip,  only to then bounce up as soon as they get the free and sprint off up the pitch  :nod  This stuff constantly goes unpunished despite certain players having a reputation for it and this is more harmful to the game than the odd goal getting scored because of a pair of laces or hair being offside.

Coadys conversation with the ref got picked up by the mic's at half time last weekend and he is heard asking the Ref about the disallowed goal. He wanted to know who was offside and the Ref told him he didn't know as he was just told it was an offside through the earpiece  :laugh:

Its a load of bollux and has caused more controversy since its introduction and it isn't for the better of the game.
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Postby devaney » Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:59 am

Totally agree that blatant diving is unacceptable. However players will continue to go down with the slightest touch in the penalty area as they know very well that if they stay on their feet the referee will not give a penalty. For me this is as much a problem with referees as it is with players. As for VAR whether we like it or not on the vast majority of occasions they eventually conclude with the correct decision and surely that is what we all want. Just take Anthony Taylor’s worse than useless ruling that Lallana handled the ball against Wolves and disallowed the goal. I was 75 yards away and it never looked like hand ball. VAR rightfully overruled the referees diabolical decision and gave the goal. I don’t subscribe to the view that incorrect decisions even themselves out during the course of a season. VAR isn’t great but it is better than complete and utter ineptitude.
Net Spend Over The Last 5 Years (10 years
are in brackets)
LFC £255m (£467m)
Everton £38m (£287m)
Arsenal £645m6 (£925m)
Spurs £510m (£541m)
Chelsea £788m (£1007m)
Man City £307m (£1012m)
Man United £702m (£1249m)
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Postby kazza » Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:33 pm

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