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Postby damjan193 » Sun Sep 27, 2015 6:52 pm

maguskwt » Sun Sep 27, 2015 4:14 pm wrote:
damjan193 » Sun Sep 27, 2015 12:42 pm wrote:Good post Ace.

Another thing I was thinking, there's no need to limit the creative/attacking players to only 3 (i.e. Coutinho Sturridge and Benteke). Something that was noticable yesterday, was that Coutinho didn't play in the number 10 role and was actually playing a bit deeper, often receiving the ball straight from the defenders. So it made me think, if at some point we switch to the 4-4-2 diamond, we could make Coutinho our third midfielder while Frimino could play the number 10 role (effectively adding the extra man in attack everyone's talking about). I was thinking about something like this:

                                                             Mignolet

                                             Clyne    Skrtel   Sakho   Moreno

                                                              Lucas
                                                 Henderson     Coutinho

                                                            Frimino

                                                  Sturridge    Benteke


Coutinho won't have to do a lot of the defensive duties that are required from midfield players since we'll already have Lucas and Hendo doing that, he'll just have to concentrate on the creative part.

There is one problem with this formation, and of course that is the lack of protection on the flanks. Clyne won't have too many problems on his side I think, because this formation will suit him best (unlike the formation we're playing now), plus he'll have Henderson if needed. The problem will be Moreno, who will have to do a lot more defending than he is doing now and defending isn't exactly his best quality.

I'm sorry but that formation's going to be stopped like water against a concrete wall by park-the-bus teams. The 4-4-2 diamond worked 2 seasons ago because:
1. The mobility of Suarez and Sturridge - I haven't seen a player who can cause mayhem in close quarters like Suarez before
2. The playmaking ability of Coutinho - Coutinho played at the head of the diamond if I remember correctly and was feeding Suarez and Sturridge left and right, who also knows how to feed off of Coutinho's passes. The key position of the daimond formation is this position.
3. As the 'wide' players in a daimond formation, we had Sterling who is fast and can go naturally go wide. I can't remember who the other wide player was, maybe Henderson? which was not very ideal.

In your formation, you have 3 players playing out of position or not ideal positions. Coutinho, Henderson and Firmino. Coutinho is wasted out 'wide' there. Henderson's position in that diamond was never an ideal position for him. 2 of them will not provide natural width. Coutinho is more suitable to play at the head of the diamond than Firmino, who can play wider than Coutinho. If Coutinho and Firmino were to be swapped, it'll look better. Even then, you don't have Suarez and Sturridge up front. You have Sturridge and Benteke. Benteke is a totally different player from Suarez, Benteke likes high balls and crosses. He is not as mobile as Suarez, and he can never cause mayhem in close quarters as Suarez. I'm sorry but this formation is doomed to fail from the beginning. If you criticize that in the current 3-5-2, Can is playing out of formation, your formation has 4 players playing out of position and/ or not ideal strategy; Coutinho, Firmino, Henderson and Benteke. And that is without arguing about Moreno and Clyne, whom I feel are more of wingbacks than full backs.

Can't see why you think we'll have more players out of position than we have now. Bar Coutinho there is no one else, even Coutinho isn't unfamiliar with that position (he played there yesterday).
Don't know how much you've seen of Frimino, but from what I've seen he's always played as a classic number 10 (sometimes as a striker for Brazil), so don't know why you would think he'd be better off on the flanks.  If we play him right the kid will be excellent for us I have no doubt, but the way we've played him so far (out wide mostly) we've wasted him. Yes, the number 10 role is probably the most important in this formation, but there's a reason why we paid 30 million for Frimino, the kid is a good player.
How is Henderson not suited to that? That position isn't a wide position, it's central. The formation has a partnership of 3 midfielders and has no wide players, Henderson will fit nicely as one of the three midfielders.
Clyne isn't suited to the wingback position at all! Our last few games should be proof enough for that, Clyne isn't suited to have so many attacking responsibilities. His position in the formation that I'm proposing is far better for him.
And finally, Benteke, he isn't Carroll mate, high balls and crosses isn't the only way to supply him. Even if it were, what would you suggest? That we have Clyne and Moreno hoofing long balls towards him? We can't play that game mate, we can't cross for Sh*t, I'd rather we play our football.
On Coutinho, yes, I agree he is slightly out of position, but I think he'll still be able to perform well from there, he's already shown that he can. Maybe I'm wrong to suggest that we should drag our best player out of position but it's for the better of the team IMO.
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Postby ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Sun Sep 27, 2015 6:57 pm

Woof - Can did well last season in a 3 mate, it was at RB where he struggled not as a right sided CB.
Plus I do want to see Gomez gradually phased into the back line, with his pace I think he can perform a similar role to what Mark Lawrenson did for us back in the early 80's, back then our back 4 used to push right up and squeeze teams in their own half, we basically dared teams to hit it over the top knowing not many forwards could run Lawrenson over 50 yards, I believe Gomez can be our 21st century Mark Lawrenson, he is as fast as f[uck] too.
Back then we also had Grobellaar who's starting position was at the edge of his area so teams had to be very accurate they just couldn't launch any old ball over the top. It was a very effective defensive tactic.
That's the direction I want to see us go in, I want to see a quick athletic back 3 who are comfortable on the ball and are prepared to play a high line so we can pressurise teams in their own half.
The Skrtels and Lovren's are always looking to drop off and retreat towards the relative safety of our 18 yard area because they are not confident enough in their own ability as defenders to leave space behind them, the likes of Alan Hansen, Mark Lawrenson and Emlyn Hughes probably spent as much time in the opposition half as our half but they had the confidence that if needed they could scramble back and put out fires if they had to.
That's the direction I want to see us go in, that's why I was so gutted when Ilorri got loaned out, he apparently beat Ronaldo's 100m record at Lisbon, a back 3 with him and Gomez in it would have been ideal.
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Postby damjan193 » Sun Sep 27, 2015 7:14 pm

Got a bit confused with that "Henderson in a wide position" comment mags, so in case we're not understanding each other, this is what I'm talking about (the upper team):

As you can see, it doesn't have any wide players, the fullbacks are the one providing the width.

Image


And how it would look in real life (I'm sorry, this was the best picture I could find) :

Image
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Postby maguskwt » Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:21 am

Damjan193: You're reasoning is good mate and I know what you're saying, but we'll just have to agree to disagree. What I don't agree with you is that:

1. Fullbacks providing the width in a 4-4-2 diamond. We will be severely exposed with only Skrtle and Sakho at the back.
2. Henderson and Coutinho not being wide players. Which is precisely my point, the 4-4-2 diamond is narrow. Once the opposition pack the centre when defending, we will be stopped. The diamond of 2013-2014 worked because of Suarez' skills in close quarters and Sterling was able to stretch defenders on the wide.
3. Playing Benteke in your 4-4-2 formation without having wide players to supply to him. I'm not saying Benteke is like Carroll. He is more than Carroll, he can play the ball on the ground. However, he doesn't have the close quarter skills of Suarez. And he thrives on chesting down crosses and long passes.
4. Coutinho is a better playmaker than Firmino to play at the head of the diamond.
5. Clyne and Moreno more of wingbacks than fullbacks. Well ok, I can accept that Clyne can be a fullback. But Moreno struggles playing as a fullback.

The combination of not having width in the 4-4-2 diamond, not having the correct type of strikers to spearhead into a packed opposition's defensive centre, and not having your best playmaker at the head of the diamond is the downfall of the 4-4-2 diamond formation that you have put up.

The Milan team you've posted is quite a team to play that diamond formation isn't it. They have 2 of world's best defenders in Nesta and Maldini anchoring that 2-CB defence. In comparison we have Skrtle and Sakho  :laugh: . They have Pirlo as a deep lying playmaker, who is best ever (well Alonso can rival him) at spraying long passes all over the field. We have Lucas, who is good as a DM but his distribution is nowhere near Pirlo and Alonso's league. They have Gattuso and Seedorf who are like beasts and machines and can stretch the opposition's defence. They have Rui Costa, a world class creative force heading that diamond. Shevchenko and Inzaghi are very mobile, tactically sound, slippery strikers. Our team to say the least, is not in the same league as that Milan team.
Image
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Postby damjan193 » Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:59 am

maguskwt » Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:21 am wrote:1. Fullbacks providing the width in a 4-4-2 diamond. We will be severely exposed with only Skrtle and Sakho at the back.
.
5. Clyne and Moreno more of wingbacks than fullbacks. Well ok, I can accept that Clyne can be a fullback. But Moreno struggles playing as a fullback.

I agree with these two points, but I'm willing to accept these faults and try it anyway. For the rest however, we'll have to agree to disagree, like you said.

I also agree that our team is no where near that Milan team in quality, not even close, but on the other hand we're not aiming to win the CL like they did, we're just trying to reach one of the top 4 spots. In the end it matters not what we think anyway, it's the manager who does the choosing :D

Cheers mags, I actually enjoyed this conversation. Rather refreshing to talk about football for once instead of the constant whining and moaning and Rodgers bashing stuff we're used to reading on here.
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Postby maguskwt » Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:12 pm

damjan193 » Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:59 am wrote:
maguskwt » Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:21 am wrote:1. Fullbacks providing the width in a 4-4-2 diamond. We will be severely exposed with only Skrtle and Sakho at the back.
.
5. Clyne and Moreno more of wingbacks than fullbacks. Well ok, I can accept that Clyne can be a fullback. But Moreno struggles playing as a fullback.

I agree with these two points, but I'm willing to accept these faults and try it anyway. For the rest however, we'll have to agree to disagree, like you said.

I also agree that our team is no where near that Milan team in quality, not even close, but on the other hand we're not aiming to win the CL like they did, we're just trying to reach one of the top 4 spots. In the end it matters not what we think anyway, it's the manager who does the choosing :D

Cheers mags, I actually enjoyed this conversation. Rather refreshing to talk about football for once instead of the constant whining and moaning and Rodgers bashing stuff we're used to reading on here.

Same mate...
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Postby aCe' » Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:43 pm

maguskwt » Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:21 pm wrote:Damjan193: You're reasoning is good mate and I know what you're saying, but we'll just have to agree to disagree. What I don't agree with you is that:

1. Fullbacks providing the width in a 4-4-2 diamond. We will be severely exposed with only Skrtle and Sakho at the back.
2. Henderson and Coutinho not being wide players. Which is precisely my point, the 4-4-2 diamond is narrow. Once the opposition pack the centre when defending, we will be stopped. The diamond of 2013-2014 worked because of Suarez' skills in close quarters and Sterling was able to stretch defenders on the wide.
3. Playing Benteke in your 4-4-2 formation without having wide players to supply to him. I'm not saying Benteke is like Carroll. He is more than Carroll, he can play the ball on the ground. However, he doesn't have the close quarter skills of Suarez. And he thrives on chesting down crosses and long passes.
4. Coutinho is a better playmaker than Firmino to play at the head of the diamond.
5. Clyne and Moreno more of wingbacks than fullbacks. Well ok, I can accept that Clyne can be a fullback. But Moreno struggles playing as a fullback.

The combination of not having width in the 4-4-2 diamond, not having the correct type of strikers to spearhead into a packed opposition's defensive centre, and not having your best playmaker at the head of the diamond is the downfall of the 4-4-2 diamond formation that you have put up.

The Milan team you've posted is quite a team to play that diamond formation isn't it. They have 2 of world's best defenders in Nesta and Maldini anchoring that 2-CB defence. In comparison we have Skrtle and Sakho  :laugh: . They have Pirlo as a deep lying playmaker, who is best ever (well Alonso can rival him) at spraying long passes all over the field. We have Lucas, who is good as a DM but his distribution is nowhere near Pirlo and Alonso's league. They have Gattuso and Seedorf who are like beasts and machines and can stretch the opposition's defence. They have Rui Costa, a world class creative force heading that diamond. Shevchenko and Inzaghi are very mobile, tactically sound, slippery strikers. Our team to say the least, is not in the same league as that Milan team.



Ill address your points...

1) Fullbacks providing the width in a 4-4-2 diamond. We will be severely exposed with only Skrtle and Sakho at the back.

2 points you raise here. Going forward, I dont think changing from wingbacks to fullbacks will change much about what we currently do. If you look at the average positions of Clyne and Moreno, they arent that different from those of fullbacks. In terms of impact in the final 3rd, both have been disappointing so far and lack the goal threat to warrant that extra bit of freedom. The 3rd CB offers us nothing going forward. If anything, the theory of Can being a good outlet to get the ball out of defense is looking more ludicrous by the day. He lacks the intelligence and passing range for the supposed role. 
Defensively, we have to realize that we dont have 3 top CBs, 2 top wingbacks OR 2 top CMs that can make the system work. The only side that I have ever seen implement the 3 at the back system in recent times with any sort of success was the Roma side that had the likes of Cafu, Candela, Algair, W.Samuel, Emersom, etc.; all world class players at the time playing their natural positions. I think the argument could be made that 4 at the back would be a better defensive setup for us than the 5 we currently play (see Man Utd who were in a similar boat with Darmian (Clyne; better FB than WB), Shaw (Moreno; better WB than FB), Smalling (Skrtel; Smalling lapses of concentration), etc.). To begin with, both Sakho and Skrtel look uncomfortable in a 3. The are never sure when to track the runner, cover out wide, or hold their positions. The other problem is in the 3rd CB we have to fit in there. Can is a big defensive liability in the position as far as I'm concerned. We can play any of Gomez, Henderson, Enrique in the position and I wouldnt think it would be much of a step down. 

2. Henderson and Coutinho not being wide players. Which is precisely my point, the 4-4-2 diamond is narrow. Once the opposition pack the centre when defending, we will be stopped. The diamond of 2013-2014 worked because of Suarez' skills in close quarters and Sterling was able to stretch defenders on the wide.

I agree that Benteke/Ings are nowhere near Suarez, but I am not sure I agree with the rest. If opposition are sitting deep, the 3 at the back with wingbacks offers us nothing more than a 4-4-2 diamond would. The same duties carried out by a wingback would be carried out by the fullback. Additionally, with 4 at the back you have the extra attacking man in midfield creating rather an extra body at the back covering no one. Sterling played behind Suarez and Sturridge in the diamond and his best displays came when we were playing on the counter. He stretched the length rather than width of the pitch when he was on fire. Against opposition that sit deep, we're better served playing the ball to feet and the likes of Firmino and Lallana would be better outlets for that than an Ibe or Emre Can. Their mere presence in advanced areas (something you miss with the 3 at the back) forces opposition fullbacks and defensive midfielders to cover them leaving our fullbacks and forwards in potential 1on1 situations. In theory, that should allow us to put in better quality crosses with more bodies in the area to convert if we choose to cross it instead of playing it to feet.

3. Playing Benteke in your 4-4-2 formation without having wide players to supply to him. I'm not saying Benteke is like Carroll. He is more than Carroll, he can play the ball on the ground. However, he doesn't have the close quarter skills of Suarez. And he thrives on chesting down crosses and long passes.

See the point above. Also, if we do decide to change our style of play drastically to get the best out of Benteke, our only option would be to play a 4-4-2 with wingers to have fullbacks overlapping and as many outlets out wide as possible. Again, the 3 at the back (as proven from all the games we have used the system) does not help us produce any more crosses than a 4 at the back would. Clyne produced 1 cross against Norwich and 4 against Villa; fewer than the opposition right back in both games! He produced more crosses playing at fullback against United and Westham than he did playing WB.

4. Coutinho is a better playmaker than Firmino to play at the head of the diamond.

Coutniho will most likely spearhead the diamond (or 3-5-2) anyways for the majority of the season. He does have the ability to play deeper and track a bit more defensively (with similar success to what he currently produces) but I feel that is contingent on Firmino producing top class displays consistently and I dont see that happening this season.


5. Clyne and Moreno more of wingbacks than fullbacks. Well ok, I can accept that Clyne can be a fullback. But Moreno struggles playing as a fullback.

I'll give you Moreno being a better wingback than fullback. Only because it masks his defensive frailties a bit. I dont see the 3/5 at the back being a long term solution. I think we are in deep deep trouble if Brendan does. If Moreno can't play the fullback position then that will make his Liverpool career much shorter and rightly so. I'm not sure we should be building a formation/setup around Moreno. In our current situation, we need to gamble a little and take risks with Moreno at fullback imo. We all agree that we'll concede goals regardless of the setup and I feel Moreno brings enough to the table in terms of drive and attacking balance (being a left footer playing on the left) to be considered ahead of the likes of Gomez for the role.
     

*"The combination of not having width in the 4-4-2 diamond, not having the correct type of strikers to spearhead into a packed opposition's defensive centre, and not having your best playmaker at the head of the diamond is the downfall of the 4-4-2 diamond formation that you have put up."

The strikers we have are the strikers we have. The setup is not going to change that. I feel we should continue playing the ball to feet (even with Benteke back)and look to make the off-the-ball runs that give us the highest percentage chance of scoring. When we signed Firmino, I thought we'd surely give him a chance upfront to link up with Sturridge at some point. Given his injury and the direction Rodgers is taking with him, I dont think that will happen. For now, Ings is providing enough hustle to keep his place in the side and Sturridge being back adds another dimension to our attack. Regardless of the formation and whether Benteke is in the side or not, we'll continue to play to Sturridge's strength which primarily is getting the ball to his feet in and around the box. Can't see an argument for 3 at the back being better suited for that.
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Postby algymoon » Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:23 pm

It was very average performance especially in defence we are giving way goals for fun!
Three C/B is very bad idea and once again it didn't work, I just can't understand this useless BR!
The bright point is the return and goals from Sturridge very well taken goals by him.. there was some bright point with other players as well... However I still believe the players and club will benefit from a change of manager... I don't think BR will do well or improve the team great deal!! The coming games will prove that point.
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