Liverpool FC Forum

by **LFC2007** » Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:42 pm

mart wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:The tone of some of the posts in here is something else. Some people speak as though they've been there and done it and that Kenny just needs to come around to their way of thinking for the team to be successful

Yes from now on only those that posters that have won the PL should post.

Or even better, how about those who are pontificating about a man who truly has been there and done it respect that fact in the tone of their posts, instead of loftily proclaiming that the causes of our failures are x, y and z and that by following the simple ways and methods they've honed from the comfort of their chair, the club's path to success would be assured.

by **Kerry07** » Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:56 pm

LFC2007 wrote:
mart wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:The tone of some of the posts in here is something else. Some people speak as though they've been there and done it and that Kenny just needs to come around to their way of thinking for the team to be successful

Yes from now on only those that posters that have won the PL should post.

Or even better, how about those who are pontificating about a man who truly has been there and done it respect that fact in the tone of their posts, instead of loftily proclaiming that the causes of our failures are x, y and z and that by following the simple ways and methods they've honed from the comfort of their chair, the club's path to success would be assured.

"been there and done it"... in a different era.

Today is the first time i think most of us have had reason to be critical of Kenny's tactics...a back 5 and Kuyt upfront as a lone frontman, that line up today was shocking. Its the kind of formation you put out in an away tie in Europe when you want to keep it tight, and a draw is a result.

Havent really seen a problem with the tactics in any of the previous games (bar starting Carroll in games in place of Maxi).

The major criticism is off-field matters, his british transfers. How he undoes the 70million error will decide how his tenure with us goes. With Suarez unavailable we need a stand in... and bar Bellamy (who cant play 2 games in short space) we dont have anyone. 70million spent and we have nothing. Then theres midfield creativity, without the man who has saved us time and time and time and time again over 10 years, we dont have anyone. Only when we get signings right will we see league success/top 4 qualification. Comolli has been a massive failure thus far, and Kenny needs to get his next batch of signings right (if hes allowed to spend) because if he doesnt thats the end of him.

by **stmichael** » Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:01 pm

7_Kewell wrote:dear oh dear, what an awful performance and bad set up. 5 men in defence against a team who play 10 men behind the ball at all times....why?

I'm sorry guys, but for me Kenny isn't the man to lead us forward. He's transformed us into Newcastle of 1998....poor ideas, average players and no ambition.

Kenny's out of touch with the modern game and lacks the dynanism that modern football has developed. Today's managers think nothing of changing their approach, formation 2 or 3 times per half to outwit the opposition. Kenny's the complete opposite and Stoke must have p!ssed themselves laughing when they saw our team sheet.

But it's not just the set up and tactics...it's Kenny's signings too, which are the WORST in the history of our great club. Downing, Adam, Carroll, Henderson...they're all garbage and they cost us the best part of 100 million. It's a f**king joke.

I'll get panned for saying this, but i hope the board are now searching for someone new, young and capable to take over in the summer and move Kenny back upstairs. Otherwise, he'll get sacked and will be forced to leave Liverpool under a cloud, never to return.

You did your best Kenny, but a top 4 Premier League manager you are not...

Welcome to the modern day football fan. Were you saying the same before the game?

Kenny got it wrong today but to call for his head is just ludicrous. It doesn't surprise me though. The bloke was getting abuse from his own fans after winning away at City in the week and keeping a clean sheet in the process.

Sigh.

by **LFC2007** » Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:53 pm

Kerry07 wrote:"been there and done it"... in a different era.

Today is the first time i think most of us have had reason to be critical of Kenny's tactics...a back 5 and Kuyt upfront as a lone frontman, that line up today was shocking. Its the kind of formation you put out in an away tie in Europe when you want to keep it tight, and a draw is a result.

Havent really seen a problem with the tactics in any of the previous games (bar starting Carroll in games in place of Maxi).

The major criticism is off-field matters, his british transfers. How he undoes the 70million error will decide how his tenure with us goes. With Suarez unavailable we need a stand in... and bar Bellamy (who cant play 2 games in short space) we dont have anyone. 70million spent and we have nothing. Then theres midfield creativity, without the man who has saved us time and time and time and time again over 10 years, we dont have anyone. Only when we get signings right will we see league success/top 4 qualification. Comolli has been a massive failure thus far, and Kenny needs to get his next batch of signings right (if hes allowed to spend) because if he doesnt thats the end of him.

It's fair enough to highlight that Kenny's greatest successes herald from a different era...an era in which the challenges facing managers were different from today, but the principle of the game is exactly the same, making it a question of adaptation. His experience in the game doesn't count for nothing even if it doesn't prove he can cut it as a manager in the modern game. People also overlook the fact that after an extended period out of the game, a period of adjustment was in order to allow him to get up to speed with those changes, having regard also for the fact that the club itself was in a period of great transition. It never was likely to be a smooth ride after two dire seasons with turmoil on and off the pitch, and the rise of Man City and Spurs.

Some of the signings Kenny made (signings being a crucial part of management) that haven't worked out so far, and the tactics to correspond, might be symptomatic of this need to adapt. But he deserves a fair and proper chance at building a team of his own which he hasn't yet had, not nearly.

by **stmichael** » Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:27 pm

Excellent article on today's game:

Pool Need To Be Narrow-Minded

A change of approach for Liverpool at Anfield failed to prevent another frustrating afternoon. It was a case of right idea, wrong execution, says Matthew Stanger...

How They Set Up

With goalscoring a recurring problem for Liverpool at Anfield this season, Kenny Dalglish opted for an offensive 3-4-2-1 formation. Jose Enrique and Glen Johnson began the game as wing-backs, with Steven Gerrard and Stewart Downing supporting Dirk Kuyt in attack. Charlie Adam and Jordan Henderson sat centrally, with the former charged with finding the runs of Enrique and Johnson down the wings.

As noted by Michael Cox of the excellent Zonal Marking, the same set-up was used in this fixture last season when Liverpool cruised to a 2-0 victory. On that occasion it was suggested that Dalglish possibly utilised the system - rarely-used in the Premier League - in order to fit more height into the team. And with a back three of Jamie Carragher, Sebastian Coates and Martin Skrtel at Anfield on Saturday, there was clearly enough physical presence to nullify Stoke's aerial threat from set pieces.

Stoke, with one goal in their last 10 league matches at Anfield, lined up a bit more predictably. Expecting Liverpool to dominate possession on their home patch, Tony Pulis set his team up in a 4-5-1. Crouch was the lone frontman, with Matthew Etherington and Jonathan Walters responsible for counter-attacking with pace and power. Rory Delap was included in a central midfield trio (primarily for his throw-in capabilities), with Glenn Whelan sitting deepest to shield the back four.

It was clear Stoke's intention was to frustrate Liverpool, soak-up the pressure and then try to nick a goal on the break or through a set-piece. Liverpool would need to find a way between Stoke's overloaded midfield to create opportunities for Kuyt and Gerrard. An inevitable game of cat and mouse ensued...

First Half

Buoyed by an impressive victory at Manchester City in the Carling Cup, Liverpool began the match dictating a high tempo. It was perhaps on the players' minds that they would need to score early to avoid another afternoon of attrition at Anfield.

As has been the norm this season, the passing was quick and neat with Gerrard, Henderson and Adam frequently linking-up well. The Scot in particular found his range early in the first-half, with several raking passes picking out Enrique's attacking runs. The Spanish full-back readily supported Gerrard down the left, but in what would become a recurring theme, there was often no one to aim at in the box.

Indeed, with Kuyt selected ahead of Andy Carroll, Dalglish had decided to avoid the straight-up physical battle with Stoke's solid defence. Instead, the idea was to exploit the Dutchman's intelligent runs and look for the ball to be pulled back to Gerrard and Downing to shoot. In theory this approach had potential, as Kuyt created space for himself behind Stoke's backline on several occasions. However, the second part of the plan - midfielders breaking into the box to finish - failed to materialise. One such move after ten minutes illustrated the flaw, as Kuyt wriggled away from Huth but did well to win a corner after being deprived of targets in the middle.

As the half wore on, Liverpool continued to press down the flanks. Enrique and Johnson are already offensively-minded full-backs, and given extra license to roam in this system they repeatedly had the opportunity to aim balls into the box. Any crosses which were fired in were easily dealt with by Stoke's imposing backline, though, and the best opportunity of the first 45 minutes fell to the visitors when Etherington broke on the counter to fire straight at Jose Reina.

Second Half

Despite Liverpool's line-up stymying their chances of scoring from crosses, the Reds continued with this tactic at the beginning of the second half.

It wasn't long until Dalglish addressed the obvious requirement for a central target, with Andy Carroll brought on for the ineffective Downing. Now Liverpool had someone to aim for, and given the frequent crossing opportunities they had found in the first-half, Carroll should have been perfect for the occasion.

As has been the case with the struggling front man this season, however, his introduction seemed to interrupt the team's fluency. With Liverpool changing to a 3-4-1-2 formation, Stoke found themselves a man up in midfield and were able to use this to their advantage, enjoying a significant increase in possession. This was furthered aided when Dean Whitehead was brought on for Wilson Palacios, who had seen less of the ball than anyone.

In having Carroll to aim at, Liverpool's crossing became ever deeper, with no real angle on the balls played into Stoke's penalty area. The best opportunity that could possibly have come from this approach would've been for Carroll to control the ball into the path of Gerrard or Kuyt, but Shawcross did a fine job of man-marking the striker.

Liverpool's only real chance of the match eventually arrived when Enrique opted to hit the touchline to pull back for Kuyt, but the Dutchman headed wide when completely unmarked.

Bellamy brought his usual impetus when brought on for Henderson, but the last ten minutes failed to bring any further opportunities as it became evident that this was to be another frustrating result at Anfield.

Conclusions

As Tony Pulis said after the match, Stoke worked very hard to close Liverpool down and deserved a point. Offensively, the visitors never threatened (apart from Etherington's shot in the first-half, which was easy for Reina) and it was obvious a stalemate suited them from the start.

Liverpool will feel dejected after drawing, and failing to score, in another home game they dominated. As shown by last season's result, this set-up definitely had the potential to bring about the desired effect - the problem was more in the players' decision to opt for early crosses than maintaining a patient build-up.

Suarez was sorely missed, as his angled runs and wonderful trickery would no doubt have been more effective than Kuyt's industrious effort. Downing and Henderson were a disappointment, but Adam flourished sitting deep and spotting the runs of the wing-backs.

The move to bring on Carroll was somewhat forced on Dalglish by the team's insistence on playing the ball into the box from wide areas. It would probably have been a better option to bring on Bellamy for Downing and persevere with the original system, while encouraging the team to work the attacks in a more narrow fashion through the front three.

Dalglish shouldn't fear deploying the same tactic again. Liverpool were impressive up until the final third and with some fine-tuning this formation could be used to their advantage. The idea was right, but on this occasion the players failed to execute it effectively.

http://www.football365.com/faves....-Minded

by **Thommo's perm** » Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:12 pm

Kerry07 wrote:We are hard to beat because the back 5 (Reina, Johnson, Enrique, Agger, Skrtel) are quality.

Of the front 6, only 2 are worth their place (Gerrard, Suarez).

We are 4 players short... and 70million was spent on three of the 4 positions (Carroll, Downing, Henderson).. who have offered less than Ngog, Maxi, Spearing. Its the british signings that have killed us.

Boy you are a bitch when you get going
"killed us" Really? Are we dead? I must have missed the point of our demise.
What I saw today was a formation and set up which was unfamiliar and untried. Reading the last article I can see what KK was trying to do, but I would just rather he kept it simple with our strongest team and go for the win. This is not the time to be smart or experimental. Just get the best team out and tw@t the likes of these no marks. The thing that most worries me is not the players but KK and Steve Clark trying to complicate thing when the players obviously are not up to trying something different.
Oh and by the way for those who used Kuyt as an example of how Carroll should play. Dont

by **only me** » Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:47 pm

stmichael wrote:Excellent article on today's game:

Pool Need To Be Narrow-Minded

A change of approach for Liverpool at Anfield failed to prevent another frustrating afternoon. It was a case of right idea, wrong execution, says Matthew Stanger...

yeh yeh yeh Matthew Stanger...
What a load of horse :censored:

to try and excuse what any football fan with a healty sense for the game know from the minute they saw the lineup. Kenny fcked it up.

Love it when they turn football the somekind of brillient Kasparov Chess game! Play your strongest pawns! And When you play Stoke at home ,you don't start with 3 CB and 1 confused striker. Geez. Let it go ,cut your losses and learn from them.

by **Thommo's perm** » Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:56 pm

Corners and free kicks are a disgrace
We are wasteful and weak
As much as it loathes me to say it KK should take a leaf from purple hole and give them the hairdrier treatment
The players are complacent and mollycoddled and KK does them no favours by constantly defendng them. A seige mentality can only work if people are united in what they are trying to achieve. We are not on the same wavelength and KK has to take responsibility, admit hes fu'cked up and move on

by **parchpea** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:07 am

I watched Dagger from the Kop back in the day however Liverpool do not accept poor performance on any level and he will be aware of that and knows the score. We can all hark back but we live in the here and now and want a team to be proud of but so far under Kenny its not been that great in all honesty. He has to up his own game after some very poor signings and the Carroll deal hangs over his tenure like a bad smell. Die hards can skirt arounf theses issues if they wish to live in a fantasy world where our manager can do no wrong but the reality is we have some problems and are a very long way off being a top 4 outfit. I may be wrong but I thought top 4 was the target and expectation given the investment and to fall short of that now is failure surely.

by **Penguins** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:09 am

only me wrote:Some proportions ,Rafa's last years were $hiit his Aqua signing was criminal and his teams were so tacticful it squeezed the life out of everyone ,he was your classic cup manager but not a team builder or PL contender.

Kenny deserves his chance for sure ,i agreed with every single signing he made for the team and he i'm sure is devastated more then anyone with their current performance ,his tactics on the other hand are a total failure and so far he failed in deploying the correct players in the right position with the right game plan. He needs to understand that not losing isn't the purpose of the game ,at least not for Liverpool ,he must take risks if he want to succeed.

Talk about losing the plot... :no

You call Rafa's signing of Aqua criminal but in the same breath raise Kenny's signing to the skies...
Aqua got more goals and assists in fewer games than Downing and Henderson combined!!!
Aqua was A failure still. But it was A failure. costing 17 million.
WTF isn't the 3 stooges then?? Mega failures?

And then you continue to :censored:

on the tactics of Rafa when we weren't even close of scoring so few goals under him than we are now!!

And as the icing on the cake you call rafa a cup manager!
LOOOL!
We finished 2nd, 3rd, 4th under him and 7th at worst.
Kenny has managed to get us nowhere from last season when we finished 7th with backing only Rafa could dream of.
Bur he is on his way to get us to the league cup final....

Sure, Rafa lost it late on, but Kenny is doing everything Rafa did bad even at a worse rate!
There, I said it...

by **Thommo's perm** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:23 am

Penguins wrote:
only me wrote:Some proportions ,Rafa's last years were $hiit his Aqua signing was criminal and his teams were so tacticful it squeezed the life out of everyone ,he was your classic cup manager but not a team builder or PL contender.

Kenny deserves his chance for sure ,i agreed with every single signing he made for the team and he i'm sure is devastated more then anyone with their current performance ,his tactics on the other hand are a total failure and so far he failed in deploying the correct players in the right position with the right game plan. He needs to understand that not losing isn't the purpose of the game ,at least not for Liverpool ,he must take risks if he want to succeed.

Talk about losing the plot...

You call Rafa's signing of Aqua criminal but in the same breath raise Kenny's signing to the skies...
Aqua got more goals and assists in fewer games than Downing and Henderson combined!!!
Aqua was A failure still. But it was A failure. costing 17 million.
WTF isn't the 3 stooges then?? Mega failures?

And then you continue to on the tactics of Rafa when we weren't even close of scoring so few goals under him than we are now!!

And as the icing on the cake you call rafa a cup manager!
LOOOL!
We finished 2nd, 3rd, 4th under him and 7th at worst.
Kenny has managed to get us nowhere from last season when we finished 7th with backing only Rafa could dream of.
Bur he is on his way to get us to the league cup final....

Sure, Rafa lost it late on, but Kenny is doing everything Rafa did bad even at a worse rate!
There, I said it...

For whatever reason Rafa lost the plot. Fact
To be fair I rate Aquilani as one of Rafas successes. The lad is class and we could sorely do with him now.
I just wonder why, when KK took over 12 months ago, arent we playing the same type of football which dragged us up the table? What happened to that attitude and philosiphy?

by **stmichael** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:50 am

Thommo's perm wrote:I just wonder why, when KK took over 12 months ago, arent we playing the same type of football which dragged us up the table? What happened to that attitude and philosiphy?

The main players who made this pass and move football work last season were Lucas, Spearing, Maxi and Suarez. As it stands two of the aforementioned are injured, one is banned and the other doesn't seem to be getting a look in despite scoring nearly everytime he plays. We signed Henderson, Bellamy and Enrique who can all play this type of football and yet Gerrard is still not 100% fit and Bellamy can't play every week because of his knees.

If you look at our best displays this season in terms of movement off the ball I'd say Brighton away in the first half an hour when Spearing, Suarez, Maxi and Bellamy all played and we cut them to ribbons but couldn't finish. Chelsea away in the league (Suarez, Maxi and Bellamy all played). Is this purely coincidence? I don't think so. These guys are exceptionally intelligent footballers who whilst they may not be as quick as they used to be they are still a genuine goal threat which is what we are seriously lacking at the moment.

On the other hand Carroll, Downing and Adam don't fit this philosophy at all which raises questions about why they were brought if that was the case. Adam I can forgive because he's still had some excellent games but the other two just haven't done it.

I still wonder if we had a system in mind to play when we were signing these players or whether we decided to buy the players and then build a system around that.

by **Kopite-Jud** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:19 am

stmichael wrote:
7_Kewell wrote:You did your best Kenny, but a top 4 Premier League manager you are not...

Are you Yoda? :rasp

by **Kerry07** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:33 am

stmichael wrote:Excellent article on today's game:

As has been the case with the struggling front man this season, however, his (Carroll) introduction seemed to interrupt the team's fluency. With Liverpool changing to a 3-4-1-2 formation, Stoke found themselves a man up in midfield and were able to use this to their advantage, enjoying a significant increase in possession

This part is a recurring theme. He's a one man wrecking ball... unfortunately its us he wrecks not opponents.

Having Bambi on means we play with a passer less. Hes never involved in the build up hence hes anonymous, and when he did come on our possession stats nosedived. Contrast our performance at Fulham last season to this.. and the major change was he played in the latter, and all fluency in attack and control of possession went out the window.

I cant recall a player who has such a negative effect on our play. He does more damage to us than any opposing player.

by **devaney** » Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:25 am

Love Kenny but his time out of management always concerned me. The fans screamed his name and almost demanded that he was made the manager.Who should we really blame for Kenny's appointment? It's early days but fairy tales don't always come true! His tactics against City in the second half and against Stoke today clearly showed just how much pressure he is under.

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