Liverpool FC Forum

by **Ciggy** » Sun Nov 07, 2010 7:01 am

Have we suddenly become league challengers since thursday night of something

Im made up we won but at one point we had 6 central midfielders on the pitch and the first half we where woefull. Steven Gerrard single handidly won that game for us not Roy or anyone else just hime because he is head and shoulders above anything else we have in our team.

Lets not get carried away folks I know a wins a win but we have a long, long way to go before people start saying the roy doubters will have egg on their chin.
All I want is for Liverpool to win every single game and trust the manager 3 wins is good but I still dont think Roy is the right man for the job IMO.

by **kazza** » Sun Nov 07, 2010 7:39 am

Anyone that says we are playing well does not know football as were we playing well we would have beaten Bolton and Blackburn more easily than we did (something the the TOP teams would do). Beating a team around the relegation zone by one goal at the end of the game does not make a good performance, but rather saves blushes. Without Gerrard we would not have beaten Napoli.

We should be beating these teams so I do not get the argument that Roy is turning things around as we were playing poor teams. I am happy with the points but let's not get carried away with beating teams in the bottom of the table by a single goal. Roy may well string some wins together and may even have an upset or two, but he is not going to take us forward and win the prem and that is obvious. Makes all the sh1t we heard about Rafa last year quite comical as we have never been this bad yet some trying to save face by putting a positive spin on it. Bottom line is Roy was brought in by the last owners to keep his mouth shut while they asset strip the club, on top of that he is not even a good manager. Next season we will have a new manager, and all know it.

Roy this year is a dead man walking so it is hard to get too attached. Having said that, until then he does deserve respect as the Liverpool manager.

by **kawaton** » Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:10 am

kazza wrote:Anyone that says we are playing well does not know football as were we playing well we would have beaten Bolton and Blackburn more easily than we did (something the the TOP teams would do). Beating a team around the relegation zone by one goal at the end of the game does not make a good performance, but rather saves blushes. Without Gerrard we would not have beaten Napoli.

We should be beating these teams so I do not get the argument that Roy is turning things around as we were playing poor teams. I am happy with the points but let's not get carried away with beating teams in the bottom of the table by a single goal. Roy may well string some wins together and may even have an upset or two, but he is not going to take us forward and win the prem and that is obvious. Makes all the sh1t we heard about Rafa last year quite comical as we have never been this bad yet some trying to save face by putting a positive spin on it. Bottom line is Roy was brought in by the last owners to keep his mouth shut while they asset strip the club, on top of that he is not even a good manager. Next season we will have a new manager, and all know it.

Roy this year is a dead man walking so it is hard to get too attached. Having said that, until then he does deserve respect as the Liverpool manager.

Are Spurs a top team? How did they get on yesterday?
Are Man utd a top team? how did they get on v bolton earlier in the season

Chelsea & Arsenal only beat Blackburn 2-1 y'know

by **lakes10** » Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:01 am

dawson99 wrote:think we need a Pacheco thread, dont wanna derail too much from Roy, but being quailty in the reserves really dont mean much... Mellor was class in the reserves, and was great when he played for us, but he always had to be sold

dont talk about Mellor to SG or JC theres still strong feelings with both of them to about him, there are still unhappy with the way the club treated Mellor.........but i think we have coverd that a lot on here.

by **parchpea** » Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:04 am

The way the whole thing looks is that Hodgson was appointed by a temporary board on a temporary basis, a trial with a contract to reflect that very situation. He knows full well, and showed signs of it Thursday, that he must prove himself to the now real board and chairman and should we not improve he will most certainly be replaced. This is how we should look at it and the only argument would be is that at this point hes already shown he isnt capable. Roy Hodgson is being judged because hes auditioning for the role and he needs some big performances and a run of results which over the last couple of weeks hes gone some way to producing.Thing is its just pressure pressure for him every single game which is not ideal for him or the football club to be honest as we need stability and I dont see we have that with the manager at all.

by **bigmick** » Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:07 am

I agree anybody that says we are playing well is an idiot. Who did by the way

by **bigmick** » Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:31 am

Just to clarify my views on Roy so people don't get themselves confused with what anyone is saying.

I think all talk of "building bridges" is completely acedemic as far as many posters are concerned, hence why I still think we should change the manager. So many fans got themselves in a lather about Roys appointment before he even came, slagged off his appearance, his record, his every move and ridiculed his every statement and the like that building any bridge would be like trying to span the Pacific. They have dug themselves into a corner and they aren't coming out no matter what. Most of the fans on here want Roy gone, and it wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference if he got us up into third by the end of the season (they would simply think that a "good manager" would have done better).

I actually like the fact that Roy doesn't bother his erse even trying to build bridges, doesn't pander to the SOS or any of them, he knows he's wasting his time. So lets put that one to bed and be honest with each other for starters. For the likes of Nanny, RBG, Ciggy, Bav, Benny and the like there is no bridge to be built, it is over. It does not depend on what Roy says, what Roy does, how we play or how many points we get, they made their minds up about him before he even set foot in the door (obviously barring us doing the double in consecutive seasons or something ridiculous). I say it again, THATS why I think we should change the manager because disappointing though it is, they do represent mainstream views amongst the fanbase I think.

My opinions on Roy as of now? Well he's doing OK. Whether or not we beat Chelsea we will be top ten before Christmas, and the football we are playing is comparable to the dross we were serving up prior to Roys arrival (anyone who doubts that ought to think back to the last game before Roy came, Hull away). I don't think he has proven anyone wrong who doubted that he was the right man for the job, I don't think we are playing great, I don't think he's doing fantastic, but belatedly we are doing OK. I do however think he's proving those fans who said "he is a fecking sh!t manager", "absolutely fecking clueless", an "embarrassment" and "totally out of his depth" wrong though. He isn't that bad, he never was, and they were always wrong.

by **devaney** » Sun Nov 07, 2010 11:48 am

Ciggy wrote:Have we suddenly become league challengers since thursday night of something

Im made up we won but at one point we had 6 central midfielders on the pitch and the first half we where woefull. Steven Gerrard single handidly won that game for us not Roy or anyone else just hime because he is head and shoulders above anything else we have in our team.

Lets not get carried away folks I know a wins a win but we have a long, long way to go before people start saying the roy doubters will have egg on their chin.
All I want is for Liverpool to win every single game and trust the manager 3 wins is good but I still dont think Roy is the right man for the job IMO.

I thought the mods had seen sense and banned you for writing so much sh.ite!

Gerrard single handedly won the match (or handidly if you prefer)! Don't talk nonsense. Hodgson had the guts to play a bunch of kids and players coming back from injury. He realised that they were up against it and brought Gerrard on for the second half. Benitez would still have been scratching his fkg head at 71 minutes wondering what to do when we were 3-0 down! I think you will also find that the second goal was created by an incredibly gutsy and determined run by Johnson. The third goal was down to some very quick thinking by Lucas. Yes Gerrard scored an impressive hat-trick but he did not do it single handedly.

As I've said before try following Netball because you haven't got a fkg clue about football. All you do is moan and whinge. It's depressing and ruins this forum. It's largely down to the likes of you that some of the quality posters on this forum have moved on.

by **Masch79** » Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:30 pm

bigmick wrote:I agree anybody that says we are playing well is an idiot. Who did by the way

You said Roy is "doing alright as of now" which would imply we are playing well imo.

Presumably you just meant we are 'playing a bit more like', or maybe just that 'we're not as shocking as we were a few weeks ago'. Either way by saying Roy is doing alright as of now I can see that people might think you meant we are playing well.

All about expectation levels I suppose.

by **Masch79** » Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:39 pm

devaney wrote:Hodgson had the guts to play a bunch of kids and players coming back from injury.........Benitez would still have been scratching his fkg head at 71 minutes wondering what to do when we were 3-0 down!.........All you do is moan and whinge. It's depressing and ruins this forum. It's largely down to the likes of you that some of the quality posters on this forum have moved on.

Must have taken real huts that with Chelsea at the weekend!..........er, wrong thread.........and maybe people leaving the forum has got something to do with people who keep bringing the previous manager up for no reason, example: Does the fact you think he would not have made a change make RH a better or worse manager for LFC? Does it fu.ck!!

by **Masch79** » Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:43 pm

Apologies if this has already been posted but interesting article from the Irish Independent:

Axe will fall in Anfield rising
John W Henry's revolution needs a sacrificial lamb for progress to be made, writes Dion Fanning

John W Henry last week began a search for reasonableness in an unreasonable world. The history of English football is the story of success being achieved by the iron will and insanity of a domineering figure.

Even Arsene Wenger, a great reformer, knows only one way. It may be erudite and civilised and touched with genius, but it is his way.

No club can rely on genius. Chelsea might have found another method, but that won't be New England Sports Ventures' way. Roman Abramovich's bankrolling of the club in the early years allowed Chelsea to become a force. Jose Mourinho may have been the manager the club needed when they needed to assert their personality -- or assume his personality.

In Carlo Ancelotti, they have found a man who might allow them to be successful and even court popularity. Chelsea are a world away from Liverpool now. In 2009, Liverpool finished above them, an astonishing achievement given the wealth Abramovich pumped in while Tom Hicks and George Gillett were pumping it out.

Liverpool have a future now at least. NESV have made a dynamic start and they have demonstrated they are prepared to take risks in order to be successful. The appointment of Damien Comolli is a gamble. All major appointments are, but NESV are trying to do something that hasn't been done or, at least, has been done quietly in the past. Even the most powerful managers rely on other people's judgement. Alex Ferguson signed Bebe without seeing him, but ultimately footballers must know that the man they are working for wants them at the club.

Comolli's arrival, Henry says, will lead to a situation where "you build consensus". Ultimately, however, one man will be sacrificed if there is failure and it will usually be the manager. It is fashionable to say that a sporting director is the "continental model" but even in cultures where coaches are used to having sporting directors or players forced upon them by presidents, it is almost always the coach who pays for failure. That won't change.

NESV will work from the idea that if you recruit the best players and pay good wages to players who deserve it, the coach can be less important. There is statistical evidence to support this idea and that may be enough for them.

Liverpool's boot room was a place of consensus during the Bob Paisley era and may be the greatest example of what NESV hope to achieve. Football's reality is that managers are always taking recommendations from agents, scouts and others. The key elements are trust and perception.

But football has not changed in the sense that there must be an overarching figure. Roy Hodgson is not that man at Liverpool. Once it is perceived that he is not signing players, it will be interesting to see how long he survives. All the talk of continental models won't save a manager when the sense is that he has been weakened.

But Liverpool and Hodgson have had a good couple of weeks and not just because they have learned to win again. Three victories appeared to ease the pressure on Hodgson, even as it was becoming clear that his authority was being diminished by the energy and new ideas of NESV.

He had no option last week but to act like all was well. His powerbase, such as it was, has been all but eroded at Liverpool. He now has the support of Jamie Carragher and Steven Gerrard and the public backing of NESV, but that may no longer be enough.

Gerrard scored a hat-trick against Napoli on Thursday night which led Carragher to describe him as Liverpool's greatest ever player. There's a case to be made that Carragher, not Gerrard, has been Liverpool's most influential player over the past five years.

The Gerrard myth needs little encouragement to re-emerge so his hat-trick last Thursday obscured the reality that his season has been dreadful. There is growing evidence that his legs have gone and if Liverpool had been run as a normal club last summer, not one on life support, then it would have made sense to sell him.

A club like Wenger's Arsenal might have decided that last summer, if £30m was on offer, was the right time to get rid of Gerrard. He is 30 now and there is no indication that he will be able to replace his explosive force with the wit and intelligence needed to control a match.

All he ever had were reactions. World-class reactions, but reactions indicative of his restless personality. Occasionally he still reacts brilliantly as he showed on Thursday night, but the myth that Liverpool was built by Gerrard persists. Liverpool must hope this inelasticity in his reputation continues until the summer when they can sell him. But this afternoon, not 45 minutes against Napoli, will demonstrate the point Gerrard has reached in his career.

Liverpool, as a team, will be tested and even if they lose, which seems likely, Hodgson must ensure they show some fight. He has made much of the players he inherited. Henry, too, seemed to absolve him of blame for the ageing squad and when they point to players like Maxi Rodriguez and Soto Kyrgiakos, they have a case.

But Hodgson did nothing to change it. The signings of Paul Konchesky, 29, Joe Cole, 28, Raul Meireles, 27, and Christian Poulsen, 30, have done little to lower the age profile and even less to improve the quality.

There was also the curious decision to allow Jamie Carragher to sign a contract extension in the final hours of the old Hicks and Gillett regime. Carragher is needed at Liverpool, at least to remind players of their responsibilities. But he is fading fast as a player. His personality may be reason enough to keep him at Liverpool and he was close to the departed managing director Christian Purslow as well as being a supporter of Hodgson's.

But if he had any say in recommending Hodgson, then foresight is not one of Carragher's attributes.

Hodgson, it is said, would never have got the job if Liverpool were not in such crisis. After the divisive final year of Rafa Benitez, some felt that Liverpool needed a unifying figure. Instead they got Roy Hodgson.

It is unprecedented in modern times for the appointment of a Liverpool manager to be met with such a lack of enthusiasm. Some blame this entirely on the unwavering loyalty of a large section of Liverpool supporters to Benitez.

This phenomenon in itself is never explored. Football fans are usually castigated for their fickleness. Yet here is a group being condemned for their steadfastness, primarily because it doesn't fit in with the agenda that all that went wrong at Liverpool was Benitez's fault.

The problem now is not Benitez but Hodgson, despite the recent victories. If Purslow wanted somebody to help the supporters forget about Benitez, he could not have picked a worse man. His appointment was met with no enthusiasm and a repeated mantra from most that he needed time. Liverpool supporters, apathetic at best, seemed to be willing patience on themselves.

But there is no need to give a manager who has been in football 30 years time. If Howard Wilkinson had been appointed, few would have said give him time. Hodgson has a body of work which allows people to judge his appointment immediately: he is a Fulham manager managing Liverpool, as demonstrated by his reaction to any criticism.

Last weekend's victory was Hodgson's first away victory in the Premier League in 442 days. These were mainly good days for Hodgson; 442 days when he was feted and became manager of the year. Nobody noticed or cared that Fulham went most of last season without an away league victory. At Liverpool, they notice.

Since Liverpool's defeat to Everton, things have improved. At home to Blackburn, Liverpool attacked and hustled with purpose for the first time this season. Against Bolton, they got a break in a dull game and Gerrard won it for them on Thursday. But they are Hodgson victories and he will take them any way he can.

He has welcomed the arrival of NESV and the appointment of Comolli. He has welcomed everything and even apologised to Benitez. But Hodgson is isolated now. The men who appointed him have gone. He is working beyond his abilities and has problems above his pay grade.

John W Henry arrived, making sense and bringing reason. It may require one act of ruthlessness if Liverpool are truly to begin making progress.

http://www.independent.ie/sport....28.html

by **Ciggy** » Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:12 pm

devaney wrote:I thought the mods had seen sense and banned you for writing so much sh.ite!

So you want me banned for pointing out we are 16th in the prem and -4 on goal difference, because I dont think Roys the man to lead us to glory, thats not talking sh!te its having an opinion that differs to yours and guess what pal im not the only one who thinks these thoughts. They exsist for a reason think about that reason for a second before getting on your high horse !!!!

by **Dundalk** » Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:18 pm

Big day for Roy and Liverpool today

We are coming into the Chelsea game on the back of a few wins so confidence should be up. As Woof said in the match thread it will be interesting to see how he approaches the game today, we will find out a lot today. Im not saying we will win the match easily or anything like that but we should be going at Chelsea today simply because we are at home. Ill be disappointed if we sit back but I honestly dont think we will.

by **zarababe** » Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:21 pm

Masch79 wrote:Hodgson, it is said, would never have got the job if Liverpool were not in such crisis. After the divisive final year of Rafa Benitez, some felt that Liverpool needed a unifying figure. Instead they got Roy Hodgson.

It is unprecedented in modern times for the appointment of a Liverpool manager to be met with such a lack of enthusiasm. Some blame this entirely on the unwavering loyalty of a large section of Liverpool supporters to Benitez.

This phenomenon in itself is never explored. Football fans are usually castigated for their fickleness. Yet here is a group being condemned for their steadfastness, primarily because it doesn't fit in with the agenda that all that went wrong at Liverpool was Benitez's fault.

The problem now is not Benitez but Hodgson, despite the recent victories. If Purslow wanted somebody to help the supporters forget about Benitez, he could not have picked a worse man. His appointment was met with no enthusiasm and a repeated mantra from most that he needed time. Liverpool supporters, apathetic at best, seemed to be willing patience on themselves.

But there is no need to give a manager who has been in football 30 years time. If Howard Wilkinson had been appointed, few would have said give him time. Hodgson has a body of work which allows people to judge his appointment immediately: he is a Fulham manager managing Liverpool, as demonstrated by his reaction to any criticism.

Last weekend's victory was Hodgson's first away victory in the Premier League in 442 days. These were mainly good days for Hodgson; 442 days when he was feted and became manager of the year. Nobody noticed or cared that Fulham went most of last season without an away league victory. At Liverpool, they notice.

Since Liverpool's defeat to Everton, things have improved. At home to Blackburn, Liverpool attacked and hustled with purpose for the first time this season. Against Bolton, they got a break in a dull game and Gerrard won it for them on Thursday. But they are Hodgson victories and he will take them any way he can.

He has welcomed the arrival of NESV and the appointment of Comolli. He has welcomed everything and even apologised to Benitez. But Hodgson is isolated now. The men who appointed him have gone. He is working beyond his abilities and has problems above his pay grade.

John W Henry arrived, making sense and bringing reason. It may require one act of ruthlessness if Liverpool are truly to begin making progress.

http://www.independent.ie/sport....28.html

This is how it is - very well said. though don't agree with the bit about Gerrard - Gerrard mya have not palyed all well, but he has carried this lot logn enuff and can have is oiff days.. he is still si important to us !

BTW when did he apologise to Rafa... what did he say?

by **zarababe** » Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:25 pm

Ciggy wrote:
devaney wrote:I thought the mods had seen sense and banned you for writing so much sh.ite!

So you want me banned for pointing out we are 16th in the prem and -4 on goal difference, because I dont think Roys the man to lead us to glory, thats not talking sh!te its having an opinion that differs to yours and guess what pal im not the only one who thinks these thoughts. They exsist for a reason think about that reason for a second before getting on your high horse !!!!

Ignore'm doll - treat'em lie 'Acrington and Stanley - who are they?'

Roy is not the right man for the job - anyone in their right minds will know that - whatever result today - NESV are experienced, if their tweeting etc - JW will know how the TRUE fans feel and the capacity of MR H.. he's already said he wants us competing with the the other top 3, the gauntlet has been thrown and Roy is not the man to take this club to the heights required.

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