Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:05 pm

This thing about us "hoofing" the ball is an interesting one. We didn't "hoof" it at Birmingham, and we most definately didn't "hoof" it at Old Trafford either. In actual fact, a large part of our defensive policy at the latter was based around us keeping the ball, which we were very successful at as it happens. I would even go so far as saying we really ought to have "hoofed" it quite a lot more than we did, as our triangles in the centre circle were pretty but didn't hurt them enough.

Can anybody seriously remember Torres being hit with masses of "hoofs" because I certainly can't. Poulsen probably played closer to the back four than any midfielder we've had in recent memory, and recieved it off them time after time after time before getting the passing going again. There is much wrong with our game at the moment, but an over-reliance on the hoof isn't one of the symptoms.

by **woof woof !** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:37 pm

bigmick wrote:Can anybody seriously remember Torres being hit with masses of "hoofs" because I certainly can't.

Thats possibly because on the numerous occasions when the ball was hoofed out of defence (and it was), the ball was won by the opposition.

Against the Mancs in particular I was asking myself "just how tall is their back four ?", such was the frequency during the first half in which the ball was punted upfield from our back four and Reina only to see the Manc defence take possesion.

by **bigmick** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:13 pm

woof woof ! wrote:
bigmick wrote:Can anybody seriously remember Torres being hit with masses of "hoofs" because I certainly can't.

Thats possibly because on the numerous occasions when the ball was hoofed out of defence (and it was), the ball was won by the opposition.

Against the Mancs in particular I was asking myself "just how tall is their back four ?", such was the frequency during the first half in which the ball was punted upfield from our back four and Reina only to see the Manc defence take possesion.

But we rivalled them for posession of the football Woof, and not many teams do that at Old Trafford. Look I'm not suggesting that there weren't come clearances into no mans land becasue there were, but I am saying that anybody who watches that game and says our policy was to hammer it upfield is well wrong IMHO. It was just about the opposite.

by **Scottbot** » Wed Sep 22, 2010 8:46 pm

bigmick wrote:But we rivalled them for posession of the football Woof, and not many teams do that at Old Trafford. Look I'm not suggesting that there weren't come clearances into no mans land becasue there were, but I am saying that anybody who watches that game and says our policy was to hammer it upfield is well wrong IMHO. It was just about the opposite.

I'd agree with that for the most part, we had some spells in the match where we kept it and played some nice pretty stuff. The only problem was that we were a little timid getting bodies into the final third which meant we were unable to really threaten.

by **stmichael** » Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:07 am

Absolutely laughable from Molby on five live and Mark Bright on the bbc highlights. "Hodgson has inherited Rafa's team" nonsense being trotted out. Absolutelty laughable.

Rafa inherited Houllier's team that got him sacked and according to some that's why Istanbul happened. Roy inherits Rafas team after a poor season and this season is Rafa's fault.

You couldn't make it up.

Anyway, the main blame for last night's debacle lies with the players end of.

by **Fauxy** » Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:16 am

stmichael wrote:Anyway, the main blame for last night's debacle lies with the players end of.

Blame is on roy also mate

He didnt change his game plan when we were clearly playing completely awful. And why no subs before extra time?

Didnt agree with how deep Roy had Pacheco dropping either, he did more defending for Lucas for gods sake. Shelvey should have been on instead of Lucas.

by **bigmick** » Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:31 am

Fauxy wrote:
stmichael wrote:Anyway, the main blame for last night's debacle lies with the players end of.

Blame is on roy also mate

Totally agree, of course it is. The sooner we as fans stop making silly and pointless excuses for our managers the better. We did it for many years before Roy, so lets not start down that route again.

by **Fauxy** » Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:35 am

Im still backing Roy, but he is doing these things that are starting to get me a bit worried.

For example..

He never goes into the technical area, just sits there in the stands and looks depressed. The team tonight was clearly in need of some kind of spark and organisation, preticaularly the young lads who looked lost. But he just waited till half time

Maybe its him trying to show he has confidence in the team, but we havent yet had a confident looking team actually play for us this season apart from against the nobody's in the Europa league.

by **stmichael** » Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:36 am

Fauxy wrote:Blame is on roy also mate

He didnt change his game plan when we were clearly playing completely awful. And why no subs before extra time?

Who could we bring on to change it? Our bench was made up of a load of kids with hardly a first team appearance between them. The fact that we ended up playing our fourth choice centre back upfront summed it up. It was embarassing. I couldn't believe some of the senior players weren't on the bench if we needed to change things.

The bottom line is though, these players shouldn't be playing awful in the first place. The likes of Babel and Agger whinge about not being given a chance and yet when they do play they produce sweet fa. That last night was the last straw for Babel as far as I'm concerned.

by **Fauxy** » Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:39 am

stmichael wrote:
Fauxy wrote:Blame is on roy also mate

He didnt change his game plan when we were clearly playing completely awful. And why no subs before extra time?

Who could we bring on to change it? Our bench was made up of a load of kids with hardly a first team appearance between them. The fact that we ended up playing our fourth choice centre back upfront summed it up. It was embarassing. I couldn't believe some of the senior players weren't on the bench if we needed to change things.

The bottom line is though, these players shouldn't be playing awful in the first place. The likes of Babel and Agger whinge about not being given a chance and yet when they do play they produce sweet fa. That last night was the last straw for Babel as far as I'm concerned.

Well its Roy's decision to chose the bench so he is at fault for not choosing stronger players in case of an emergency!

by **glenbuck patriot** » Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:58 am

If's, but's and maybe's, LFC fans get used to it, we are going to have a season full of it, unless someone acts NOW and replaces Hodgson, mark my words, we have an under achieving Manager fit for an underachieving team, after tonight's display god only know's where we'll finish in the League, but, i can guarantee one thing, it won't be in the "wholly grail" of a top four finish, the Man just hasn't got it in him and on current display's neither has the team!

If you're a mediocre Manager, managing an underachieving team, you look on Sunday's visit to the Scum as a triumph, it was only 3-2, we could have got a draw, the way we fought back, etc, etc, I'm sat there thinking we should have taken it to them,they're rubbish, play your best team and they're there for the taking, it's all about perception, not caution and if we draw great.

We saw this same "gameplan" against Birmingham and if we're not careful we'll see it again and again in Away Games at Everton, Newcastle, Arsenal, Chelsea, Villa, & Tottenham, with the same or similar results, taking this into account how are we ever going to qualify for "Champions League" with 50 or so points for the season?

This Man simply put hasn't got what it takes to be a Top Manager in the Premier League, can you, or should i say could you see any other "Top Four or Six" club hiring him to be their Manager in the close seaon, I include City and Villa in this, simply put NO!!!!!!!!!

Before we end up like the decent Blackburn side he managed to take to the bottom four of the table in three month's, I would emplore the Board to think again and get rid ASAP.

If they don't and we're sixteenth at the moment,the rest of us can be prepared to except this mediocrity in the name of "Steadying the Ship".

Getting beaten on our own Ground by the "Whipping Boys" of the old Fourth Division, jeez, if the Man had any dignity he'd have fallen on his sword tonight, it's one thing blaming the players, but if, they've already sussed you out for what you are, that's a different matter !

A lot of people are going to disagree with my comments, but lets look at the facts so far;

New Manager, New Individuals against Arsenal, Joe (The Saviour) get's sent off, unfair we know, Team digs in (More through bloody mindedness than Manager Input & orders from the Bench, and gets an undeserved draw)

City away; Masch farce, but let's face it, the worst we've played as a team since i don't know when, contribution from the Bench vis a vis Sub's, changing pattern of play, nil.

West Brom; 0-0 all day long until Torres does something really special, Torres 1 West Brom 0

Birmingham: Forget it, not even going there.

Man U: If you've got aspirations of top Four, and bearing in mind it's one of the two most important games of the season, go for it, they're not that good, give them the hiding they so deserve......... no leave it up to the Skipper to take them on, on his own!

Result Games 5 Points 5! 16th in the League! Worst Start to a Premier Campaign!

Northampton: Play five full Internationals, set out your tactic's like we're playing Barcelona, dead negative, then wonder why you've been thrown on your a@se on penalty's.

Indispersed with all of this have been the "Mega" Triumphs in the Europa League, where we have played absolutely no-one of any significance!

If i supported Fulham I could possibly live with this,think the other results so far this season we're on a par with last, but i'd turn out again on Saturday, I'd be mightily pi$$ed with tonight's result, but, i'd remember when we were playing Colchester at home, and i'd think Roy was the Saviour!

But, and here's the BIG but, I don't support Fulham, I think that 5 pts from who we've played is NOT top four material, I think it's not gonna get any better with you at the helm, and finally i think that before you Royally Ball's things up on the pitch you should do us all a favour and admit, this is beyond you, you won't deliver Champions League Football next Season and the consequences of that are unthinkable.

by **Thommo's perm** » Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:06 am

bigmick wrote:
Fauxy wrote:
stmichael wrote:Anyway, the main blame for last night's debacle lies with the players end of.

Blame is on roy also mate

Totally agree, of course it is. The sooner we as fans stop making silly and pointless excuses for our managers the better. We did it for many years before Roy, so lets not start down that route again.

I for one wont be making "sky blue" statements. But I will also bear in mind that many people havent understood the enormity of the job Roy has taken on.
Im not going to go into the squad he has inherited, but what I will say is that Raoul has hit the nail on the head for me:

"The point is that results like these happen far too often. Why? Perhaps it is not the players or the managers or the owners. Perhaps there is a culture that has crept into the team over the years that has made it acceptable for players to just go through the motions. I’ve lived in more than one culture. I’ve been involved in a number of organisations, where despite changes in personnel, the same strengths and weaknesses are present. Why? Culture. LFC needs a change in culture. That will take time. And it isn’t going to be easy. What do I want to see Roy do? If you don’t perform, you don’t play."

This is the state of the club at the moment for whatever reason. This, for me is Roys biggest chalenge. Last night he made two mistakes. 1. He trusted that the team he picked would do the business. 2. When he realised it wouldnt he didnt have the back up on the bench to change it.
However well these players do in training, they are not doing it on the pitch. Its like someone playing like Pele in training and like Lucas in a match.
I dont know whether Roy has what it takes to sort this mess out. I hope he has and Im willing to give him time as I would urge all Reds to, because no matter what you think of him, hes all weve got. Dont kid yourselves that a new manager will come in at the drop of a hat and hey presto, problems solved. As the man said, we have a culture, Babel being the example, which has to change asap.
Fingers crossed.

by **Johnny Boy** » Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:17 am

Everyone keeps saying Torres isn't match fit or needs time, I say he should have been on the bench last night.

We needed him, he comes on , scores against a tiring defence, he gets the extra confidence and we stay in a competition that we could win.
I would rather win the Carling than win nothing.

Johnson should also have played for punishment for his woeful showing against the Mancs, AND to say to him your place is not guaranteed in the first team.

As for Babel, I have been saying he should have been given his chance instead of Maxi, after last night I think we are better off without him.

by **Thommo's perm** » Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:23 am

Some of Roys comments:

Hodgson acknowledged he was disappointed by the manner of his side's performance and insisted that the defeat was the responsibility of both players and manager.

He said: "The fact is these players have to accept responsibility. I have to accept responsibility for changing a lot of players in the team, but I did it because I thought the players I put on the field would be good enough to go out and win the game.
"They weren't, so the obvious conclusion to that is that I shouldn't have changed so many players and should have let some of those players who played against Manchester United play tonight, but I honestly believed the team we put out on the field would have been strong enough to get a result.
"It's one of many setbacks we're facing at the moment and it's a tough period to work and live through, but we will work and live through it. We will survive it and get better. I will learn an awful lot from this defeat tonight about an awful lot of people.
"We must all take responsibility and I am bitterly disappointed that the team I had so much faith in did not repay that faith this evening, with the exception of one or two."

He acknowledges it but will he/can he do anything about it?

by **bigmick** » Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:32 am

I'm going to say it again, of course it's the current managers fault if we can't beat Northampton. I say that in prelude just so people don't accuse me of making excuses for him, I'm not.

If though we look at the team which took the field, then I think it's high time we as a fan base re-assessed exactly what we've got on our hands. I include myself in this, so lets look at it, and please bare in mind I haven't seen any of last nights match, the result is enough.

Brad Jones: He's a back up keeper, but he did cost 2.8 million quid which is a lot for one of those. Is he any good?

Daniel Agger: Been making noises in the press all week in a very un-Liverpool way, and has let himself down in doing so IMHO. He is though a top player isn't he, some of us were "fecking fuming" when he didn't make the first team (why we were more fecking fuming now than we were on the umerous occasions in the past that he didn't play I'm not sure), but where was he last night? Why didn't he stand out like b0ll0cks on a cow? I've wanted him in the first team as well, why didn't he make a rock solid case last night.

The Greek: Played up front towards the end to the dismay of many. Is he good enough?

Kelly: Much vaunted and we all love a local lad. Is he really good enough?

Lucas: In the Brazillian squad, many peoples pick to still be in the first team, coming off the back of an excellent goal, why no shine against Northampton then?

Spearing: Excellent in Europe, what happened here then?

Pacheco: The jewel in the crown of our much talked about academy. How good is he really?

Babel: I've campaigned for giving him a chance. But is he an 11.5 million quid white elephant?

I could go on, into the subs and could include some of the other players. I've finished each analysis with a question mark as I'm asking the question not giving the answer. The real truth is, the result last night was a body blow but the worst bit was it wasn't a complete shock. It's not as if it's never happened before, it seems to happen every time we leave our best players out, be it in the league or in domestic cups.

Is the real reason that our squad is very very poor?

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