Liverpool FC Forum

[Sabre]

you took my comment as offending or something? trust me when I say that in different languages the terminology is different and sometimes I struggle both to understand some words, and to say what I want to say because the direct translation doesn't make sense at all. There's not a "Football terminology dictionary" AFAICT, and the words used are different.

How saying that brings that "drama queen" comment?

[aCe']

you took my comment as offending or something? trust me when I say that in different languages the terminology is different and sometimes I struggle both to understand some words, and to say what I want to say because the direct translation doesn't make sense at all.

How saying that brings that "drama queen" comment?

he said they were better than marlboro ... only took a couple of puffs... he was right !

[Sabre]

Ah, well.

[aCe']

Ah, well.

was just kidding sabre for fuks sakes ! comeon... wheres ur sense of humor ?! ....

i know how to make it up for ya... xabi alonso is the most talented defensive midfielder in the world... are we cool now my spanish amigo ?!

[Sabre]

Cool? Cool?

you actually thought I understood this bit of english?

he said they were better than marlboro ... only took a couple of puffs... he was right !

I was lost already in the marlboro bit. Those are cigarretes. I don't know what you mean so I cannot be angry By I struggle to understand english, I really mean that.

Just checking though, you weren't suggesting that the fact some press describes a player that way it means it was wrong to consider Alonso a holding midfielder, right?

Of course we're cool hermano

[aCe']

Cool? Cool?

you actually thought I understood this bit of english?

he said they were better than marlboro ... only took a couple of puffs... he was right !

I was lost already in the marlboro bit. Those are cigarretes. I don't know what you mean so I cannot be angry By I struggle to understand english, I really mean that.

Just checking though, you weren't suggesting that the fact some press describes a player that way it means it was wrong to consider Alonso a holding midfielder, right?

Of course we're cool hermano

read your post three times and still dont get what ur saying but... as long as we are okay buddy... thats good

dont give a flying fck abt the press so... ya....waaaaaaaat.... holding midfielder press...yea... he is a holding midfielder....yea... press are bad... government is corrupt... what else... religion... lets not go there... mmm... yea... thhats about it...

on a scale of 10... how do you rate life... overall ?

[Sabre]

Whatever Ace'

Deep-lying playmaker
Some central midfielders prefer to set up an attack from a withdrawn position. Players with such attributes are often coined deep-lying playmakers, mainly because of their ability to spread play and dictate the game from a withdrawn position. Due to their weaknesses in their defensive aspects, some have to be supported by holding midfielders. Players in this mould include Andrea Pirlo (AC Milan and Italy; supported by Gennaro Gattuso), Barry Ferguson (Rangers & Scotland), Xabi Alonso (Liverpool and Spain; supported by Mohamed Sissoko or Javier Mascherano), Xavi (Barcelona and Spain), David Pizzaro (AS Roma and Chile; supported by Daniele de Rossi), Lucas Leiva (Grêmio/Liverpool and Brazil) and Michael Carrick (Manchester United and England).

This is possibly one of the newest roles in modern football tactics. It is often likened to an evolved version of the old-school sweeper. Although it still remains unclear as to who first started playing in this role, Josep Guardiola has been credited as the player who popularised it.

Try searching yourself next time

Thanks for doing it for me. Still, I don't buy what the general press say, I've seen Guardiola playing a lot of years, I've seen Alonso, and well, it's hard for me to consider them in the same category. Guardiola was a very good distributor, just as Alonso is, but he did not make Xabi's rol whatsoever. He defended fúck all. Xavi? the same category of Alonso? Alonso, weak defending? wherever that article comes from, it's a pile of cráp.

It's the bad thing about press, they're often are wrong so it's better to give the opinions as you see them on the game (at the risk of being wrong) rather than reading  comments in the press.

For me Alonso's game is not new whatsoever, because I've seen a player like him in 1986, Bernd Schuster. But that's my opinion. Anyhow, not problems if I'm wrong eh? I'm wrong often, that's my opinion though.

BTW, acording to that definition Alonso cannot be a deep-lying-playmaker because he's not weak defending, and he's not backed by a holding midfielder.

Xavi the Barcelona player could be one of those, but then it's ridiculous definition, because all playmakers I've known do go to withdrawn positions during a game at some point, since football is football. It describes a typical movement, not a role, IMHO. But then again, I may be wrong.

[kunilson]

you must be drunk....but ill answer your question, right now a 7.

[aCe']

you must be drunk....but ill answer your question, right now a 7.

i dont drink mate but 7... wow...

impressive if kunilson is your real name

[kunilson]

no its not, but its mainly a 7 because the final is only a week away

[Sabre]

And before going to sleep a nice post I've found. In Spanish I have many that talk about holding midfielders, but this coach of a forum describes the players making the holding midfielder role a while ago.

Having taken a look at the Premiership, The holding midfielder role is taken as follows:

Arsenal - Gilberto Silva (Brazilian)
Aston Villa - Gavin Mc,Cann
Birmingham City - Nicky Butt
Blackburn Rovers - Tugay (?) (Turkish)
Bolton Wanderers - Ivan Campo (Spanish)
Charlton Ath - Kishishev (Bulgarian ?)
Chelsea - Claude Makalele (French)
Everton - Phil Neville
Fulham - Papa Boupa Diop (Senegalese)
Liverpool - Xabi Alonso and / or Didi Hamann
Manchester City - Claudio Reyna (?) (American)
Manchester United - John O'Shea (?) (Irish)
Middlesbrough - George Boeteng (Dutch)
Newcastle United - Scott Parker
Portsmouth - Pedro Mendes (Portuguese)
Sunderland - Can't think of anyone
Tottenham H. - Michael Carrick (?)
West Brom - Nigel Quashie (?) Scottish
West Ham United - Hayden Mullins and / or Nigel Reo-Coker
Wigan Athletic - Graeme Kavanagh (Irish)

Those with a (?) after their name, I'm not sure actually specifically play the role.

Of those listed, the best five (in no particular order) are:

Xabi Alonso
Didi Hamann
Claude Makalele
Gilberto Silva
George Boeteng

Of a total of 21 players listed only 7 are English.

Gavin Mc,Cann
Nicky Butt
Phil Neville
Scott Parker
Michael Carrick
Hayden Mullins
Nigel Reo-Coker

If you add to that list Owen Hargreaves, that makes eight possibilities for the position(not including our own Jamie Carragher, who shouldn't be expected to play out of position at this late stage before the World Cup)

A quick run down of the eight candidates reads as follows:

Gavin Mc,Cann

Tried in the position once by Sven in one of his first squads, whilst he was at Sunderland and never picked again. At best he is a run of the mill Premiership player in an average Aston Villa midfield, who have performed poorly all season.

Nicky Butt

Still technically a Newcastle player, but has just had his worst ever season on loan at relegated Birmingham City. Once one of Sven's favourites and did okay in 2002, but has since suffered from injuries, attitude problems and complete loss of form

Phil Neville

Previously another one of Sven's favourite 'utility' players, and has actually had a half decent first season at Everton (apart from the sending off and OG against us of course). Held the bitters together early in the season when it looked like they were in for a relegation battle and has been rewarded by replacing Reo-Coker on Sven's 'standby' list. Wouldn't really fancy him picking up late runs from Riquelme or ballack though.

Scott Parker

Brilliant whilst at Charlton and was obviously a bigger fish in a small pond. Tried by Sven, but his career has been ruined by a couple of long term injuries and a move to the Chav's where he suffered under Jose and his mercenaries. Got back to something like his Charlton form mid season at Newcastle, which may have led to an England recall, but was then injured again.

Michael Carrick

Not really a holding midfield player, although he does sit deep and starts most of Tottenham's attacks with his range of passing. Unfortunately, he isn't blessed with any pace and can't tackle, both of which are vital in the holding role.

Hayden Mullins

Had a brilliant first season back in the Premiership at West Ham and is a real unsung hero. For me he is England's nearest thing to Claude Makalele, and but for his sending off in the incident with Luis Garcia, may have edged his way into Sven's squad.

Nigel Reo-Coker

Again, not really the holding midfielder at West Ham, as that job is done by Mullins, but another player who had a brilliant season, topped off with some vital goals towards the end of the season. Forced his way onto the standby list and then got himself injured and out of the squad again. Certainly a better option than Owen Hargreaves and of all the players sven picked could have done the holding role better than most.

Owen Hargreaves

With all Sven's love affairs and sexual indiscretions, maybe Hargreaves is his secret love child or something ?

Either that or Sven has at least been ******** his mother.

There's no other reason I can think of why he continues to get selected in all of Sven's sqauds for major tournaments.

Hargreaves must be one of the luckiest players everto pick up an England cap.

When you think of some of the players that never one any caps or only a handful at best, seeing Hargreaves in an England shirt is a disgrace.

In summing up, I thought that Jamie Carragher did an okay job against Hungary last night, and all the comments about him not having any creativity is just a load of usual bo-lux from the so called pundits.

I mean, everyone bleats on about Claude Makalele, but when did you last see him hit a 40 yard defence splitting pass.

At best Makalele is very very good at cynically braking up the opposition attacks, then giving the ball to the likes of Joe Cole, Arjen Robben, Damien Duff and Fat Frankie or hitting it long for Dogbreath, just like Jamie Carragher would do in the same situation (altough not so cynical)

If it were up to me, I'd scrap the holding role altogether, as we clearly haven't got a player specialised or good enough to play the position.

With Michael owen still looking far from fitness and Jamie Carragher still worthy of a starting role in the team I'd go for:

3-3-2-1-1

as follows:

GK - Paul Robinson

CD - Jamie Carragher
CD - Rio Ferdinand
CD - John Terry

RWB - Gary Neville

CM - David Beckham

LWB - Ashley Cole

AM - Steven Gerrard
AM - Frank Lampard

In the hole - Joe Cole

CF - Peter Crouch

Whatever anyone says about Rio, he is good at coming out from the back, and as most other countries will play with one stiker and someone in the hole, he can play in front of Carra and Terry, or behind them, depending on how deep we play.

Ratboy and Ashley Cole also have the energy and ability to get up and down the flanks, supporting the midfield / striker from wide areas or dropping deep to make a four or five man back line if required. Also, apart from Beckham, Neville is one of the best crossers of a ball in the squad, especially when the ball is set back to him or played played wide to him on the run.

Beckham hasn't got the pace or ability to play in a wide area and doesn't track back all the time (he left Neville and Carra exposed on more than one occasion last night), but he has got a fantastic range of passing which he could capitalise on from a more central position and still get wide to take corners, free kicks, etc.

Stevie G. and Fat Frankie, can do what they do best and burst forward from a more advanced midfield position, but still have the discipline to drop deep and sit in when necessary.

Michael owen looks anything but fit and raring to go to me, so I'd go for Peter Crouch as the target man with Joe Cole in the hole, picking up the pieces and feeding off Crouch with all his flicks and tricks and runs into the box, commiting defenders and winning free kicks and penalties.

Sven would then have the option of brining on Lennon or Walcott to run at a tired defence late in the game if we need to change things....

There it is, my LONG answer to England's holding midfield problem.....If we haven't got the ability to use it don't play it !!

Everyone has an opinion, that's why football is lovely.

[account deleted by request]

And heres a better article on defensive midfielders

Defensive midfielder

A defensive midfielder or a holding midfielder is a central midfielder who is stationed in front of the back defenders for defensive reasons, thus "holding back" the freedom of the opponents to attack. This specialist midfielder's responsibilities are to defend against or tackle the opposing team, to recover the ball for their team, and to safely distribute it to more attacking-minded players.

A secondary role of a defensive midfield player is to initiate attacking movements after they have won the ball (via a legal tackle).

The defensive midfielder position is also referred to in Spanish and Brazilian Portuguese as "volante" (Spanish & Portuguese for "Rudder" or someone who gives direction), and in Portugal as a "trinco" (meaning "lock"). Most Brazilian teams deploy at least one "volante" in their team. This includes the Brazilian national team who have fielded some of the most famous defensive midfielders, such as 1994 World Cup winning team captain Dunga.

The position is sometimes overlooked but is critical in the modern game. It is a highly specialized position, executed successfully by only a handful of players.

Perhaps the most typical case of a current defensive midfielder is Claude Makélélé. For both club (Chelsea, Real Madrid) and country (France), he plays in front of the back four, breaking up opposing attacking movements. His tough yet accurate tackling and his 'fail-safe' short passing exemplify the quintessential defensive midfielder. When he played for Real Madrid, the modus operandi had been "Makélelé wins the ball and passes it to Zidane." (Patrick Vieira, whom Madrid tapped to replace Makelele in 2004, is also considered by some to be a defensive-oriented midfielder, though Vieira is stationed in the center.) Since 2005, Makelele has formed a twin defensive midfield pairing with Ghanaian Michael Essien.

Other accomplished defensive midfielders playing today include Gennaro Gattuso (AC Milan and Italy), Esteban Cambiasso (Internazionale and Argentina), Javier Mascherano (Liverpool and Argentina), Owen Hargreaves (Bayern Munich and England), David Albelda (Valencia and Spain), Christian Poulsen (Sevilla and Denmark), Neil Lennon (Celtic and Northern Ireland), Mahamadou Diarra (Real Madrid and Mali) and Gilberto (Arsenal and Brazil). During their successful campaign in Euro 2004, Greece frequently used formations that sported three defensive midfielders at the same time (Zagorakis, Katsouranis, Basinas).

[account deleted by request]

Michael Carrick

Not really a holding midfield player, although he does sit deep and starts most of Tottenham's attacks with his range of passing. Unfortunately, he isn't blessed with any pace and can't tackle, both of which are vital in the holding role.

One thing no one can say is that Alonso is blessed with pace, but according to YOUR article pace is vital  in the holding role So Alonso is either a cr@p holding player or a good deep lying playmaker - your choice 

[GO_THE_MIGHTY_REDSS]

It really depends on who we play in the final! It depends on the tactics Rafa will do.

Maybe Rafa wants creativity in the line up, so he will include xabi alonso in there, or maybe (like always) he will play a cautious game by including mascherano.

I think if we meet AC Milan, He will definetly include Mascherano to close on Kaka!

I have to say that i think Mascherano, still has alot to show but, should he be given a chance in the final my opinion is that Alonso start and depending on how we perform. Maybe bring him on if we are winning! Sorry i mean when we are winning.


  Liverpool Till I Die!

[112-1077774096]

haha, if they have a bad performance and someone says that performance is bad then thats a fact mate, its not being fickle, if a player starts well and goes through a prolonged period of performances is it not fair to say the are sh!t (bearing in mind we dont have the hindsight to se if they get better again so we dont know if their early promise is a flash in the pan)

come on mate no need for name calling on this, its not warranted.

So I guess then that Gerrard can go, provided Eto'o comes in part-ex, seeing as he's had a poor season?

Good players don't become overnight, and Alonso still has his ability - he's just f*cked.

I really don't care for comments which belittle his contributions, and "he's easily replaceable" is disrespectful to the lad - no one could do what he does for us.

Mascherano could definitely do a job for us - a very, very good one.

But he'd never do the job Xabi does, and that's the thing we'd miss.

come on lando, now its dummy out the pram time, thats not what i am saying and you know damn well thats not what i am saying, its ok having your say mate but resorting to making stupid comments is not needed, you are doing well enough without having to twist things.

i also have to ask the question 'just what has alonso done for us?"  it seems the argument here from some is that alonso is the best thing since sliced bread and is the be all and end all of LFC, he isnt.

and like i have said many times, i dont want him to leave but if its for the benefit of the club then so be it, let him go, if his sale makes way for players who can alter the team for the better and put us in at least touching distance of the title then great, lets sell him.

but i am not advocating selling him for a few dodgy performances and the wrong body language. the choice may not even be liverpools at the end of the day, if the rumours are true about homesickness then he will want to go to barcelona and there will be nothing the supporters can do about it.

i remember having this conversation about keegan, look what happened, i remember haing this conversation about souness (player) look what happened. one player does not make a team mate, alonso does not make liverpool. like i have said before if he does go it may turn out to be a blessing in disguise, just like when sissoko was injured and rafa was forced to play gerrard in his best position in the centre.

I'd hardly call that first line "dummy out of the pram time".

I'm simply saying - if we, in your view, should sell Alonso to benefit the team as;

a) He's had a dip in form,

b) We'd get a striker in return, and

c) Because we've not won the title with him,

then surely that means Gerrard can go, too? We'd get a sight more money and takers for him than Alonso.

Now - call me pedantic if you will, but that's essentially the cut of your jib, is it not?

And I don't believe "fickle" is name calling, and you should know me better by now than to think I wouldn't have started slagging people off directly had I wished.

OH, and just a point:

I haven't called ANYONE ANYTHING directly. How people interpret those sweeping statements is more down to a sense of guilt than my own words.

its getting tiresome now mate, where do i say that we should sell alonso. even in the post you have quoted here i dont say we 'should' sell alonso, in fact i say the opposite, i also say i dont advocate selling over a few dodgy performances but you seem to read that as me saying we should sell him over a few dodgy performances. all you have done here is completely reverse what i have said.

if you want to keep highlighting things then at least do it with things that i have actually said.

i have said many times in here now that i dont think we should sel alonso, however if it was for the good of the team then he could be sold, if we can replace him with better then i dont see any loss, the same goes for gerrard, if we can replace him with better then so be it.

also i have never used the phrase 'easily replacable', again thats someting you have just made up.

ok lando have your rant, use general insults but dont attribute things to me that i havent said

read my comments again but this time try and understand them, you are a bright guy so for the life of me i cant see how you cant understand a couple of sentences