Liverpool FC Forum

[JBG]

As for systems, I have a feeling that Benitez will play 4-2-3-1 next season when he has his best 11.

An example of that would be:

                        Dudek

Finnan       Carragher          Hyppia        Troare

                  Hamman           Alonso

      Gerrard          Garcia               Riise

                      Morientes

This is a system he used mostly in Spain and is also the system he has used when Gerrard, Alonso and Hamman were all fit. I don't think it was a case of fitting those 3 central midfielders into the team, it was actually the case of Benitez picking his first choice.

He likes one striker playing very deep off an advanced front man and Garcia is best in that position.

Even if Hamman goes in the summer I still think Benitez will buy in a decent central midfielder and replace him.


In certain matches Benitez has dropped Xabi Alonso and played an extra forward: at the start of the season this was Baros.

Its interesting and no one knows what players we'll have next season, but I'll wager the system Rafa is aiming for is 4-2-3-1.

[A.B.]

Was reading some other liverpool websites and found a post which really hit home to me.

Who can defend a system, the same one most are looking forward to next year, that allows the below strikers such a return? You defend the system and at the same time point fingers at the results from the system and blame the striker for the results but not the system.

Results are

Baros 9 goals in 22 games
Morientes 2 in 8 games
Ciise 2  in 8 games
Pongolle 2 in 16 games
Mellor 2 in 9

And you should look at how much or better said, how little chances the above get to shoot at goal

Apparently the majority think Benny is going to say good bye to Baros this summer and rightly so. Rightly so? Have to wonder about that as our system is obviously not set up to create a lot of chances for our strikers as the above lot combined has less shots on goal all year than Henry. Combined. You can nominate any striker in the world and put him in a system that provides so little oppurtunities and you will get the same result. Less goals. If Henry played in this sytem his 80 shots at goal would become closer to 30 - 40 and goals scored would become 12 - 14

If you are a fan of Bennys system then you know his strikers suffer as he spreads the goals about. If that is the case then get off our strikers case as you cant have Bennys system and a 20 league goal a year striker as well. Unless you know a striker who will score every 2nd chance he gets as any striker under Benny's system will be lucky to have 30 shots on goal all year.

Where did you copy and paste this from?

Results are

Baros 9 goals in 22 games
Morientes 2 in 8 games
Ciise 2  in 8 games
Pongolle 2 in 16 games
Mellor 2 in 9

I can agree that Baros has not scored as many goals as he should had considering the chances he has had however "your" post does not include all factors to why the outcome is low.

First and foremost Baros has had good amount of chances, had he been a better player he would had put them away. [Note: see the chances he had against Everton. Rooney and Defoe are two young strikers that come to mind that would had put those chances away]

However Baros has had four different strike partners this season [injuries are the reason for this] and therefore he has never had enough time to gel with his fellow striker. He also has been injured, he's missed 8-10 Premiership games due to injury I believe.

Morientes and Cisse are new to the league. Morientes has played in tough games and in games where our midfield and the rest of the team played poorely and created no chances for him.

Mellor and Pongolle? Why are we even talking about two players that are unlikely to start on a regular basis? [Pongolle has a future at this club, Mellor doesn't imo] Had not there been injuries I don't think we would had seen them play as many games as they have.

Another factor that has not been mentioned in your post is how many starts they got, all it says is a number goals in a number of games, it does not say whether the player started in that game which is why these statistics mean nothing.

Yes it is true that Benitez likes his midfield to score, he encourages his midfield to score as many goals as possible but that doesn't mean he doesn't want his strikers to score, he is making us less dependent on our strikers which is a good thing imo.

    * Milan Baros - 13 goals (9 Premiership, 2 Champions League, 2 Carling Cup goals)
    * Luis Garcia - 10 goals (6 Premiership, 4 Champions League goals)
    * Steven Gerrard - 10 goals (5 Premiership, 2 Carling Cup, 3 Champions League & Qualifier goals)
    * John A. Riise - 8 goals (6 Premiership, 1 Carling Cup, 1 Champions League goals)
    * Neil Mellor - 5 goals (2 Premiership, 2 Carling Cup, 1 Champions League goals)
    * Sinama Pongolle - 4 goals (3 Premiership, 1 Champions League goals)
    * Djibril Cisse - 3 goals (2 Premiership, 1 Champions League goals)
    * Fernando Morientes - 2 goals (2 Premiership goals)
    * Sami Hyypia - 2 goals (1 Premiership, 1 Champions League goals)
    * Xabi Alonso - 2 goals (2 Premiership goals)
    * Igor Biscan - 2 goals (2 Premiership goals)
    * Harry Kewell - 1 goal (1 Premiership goal)
    * Stephen Finnan - 1 goal (1 Premiership goal)
    * Didi Hamann - 1 goal (1 Champions League goal)
    * Salif Diao - 1 goal (1 Carling Cup goal)

[Dalglish]

Systems and statistics are what most of us hear at work from underachieving and talentless middle managers

The reality at liverpool this season is that many of our strikers (All of them actually) haven't had either the time or the fitness to settle into any pattern but it's to our credit that our midfielders have chipped in with their fair share of goals for the reds.

Midfielders are often set a target of 10 goals per season and Gerrard and Garcia have already reached that total with Riise not far off it. Its no coincidence that these 3 players have played in the majority of fixtures.

I think it's taken as read that morientes will come good, there is mixed opinions on baros and we all hope for the best for Cisse after his career threatening injury.

I liked JBG's line up as it loks negative at first until you realise it contains Alonso, Hamann , Gerrard, Riise, Garcia and Morientes in the line up

[Santa]

If Henry played in this sytem his 80 shots at goal would become closer to 30 - 40 and goals scored would become 12 - 14

few things to keep in mind...
1) Henry created many of his own goal scoring opportunities
2) All our strikers are either just getting their first true run in the first team and/or being injured one time or another during the season.
3) Xabi Alonso...if he stayed uninjured and strike a good understanding with Gerrard, I am sure the strikers will get more goal scoring opportunities.
4) our goal difference is still 4th best in the league, far ahead of the next contender. More or less reflect in our league position. With players back, the GD will be much much healthier.
Just my observation...

[The Canadian Red Army]

Was reading some other liverpool websites and found a post which really hit home to me.

Who can defend a system, the same one most are looking forward to next year, that allows the below strikers such a return? You defend the system and at the same time point fingers at the results from the system and blame the striker for the results but not the system.

Results are

Baros 9 goals in 22 games
Morientes 2 in 8 games
Ciise 2  in 8 games
Pongolle 2 in 16 games
Mellor 2 in 9

And you should look at how much or better said, how little chances the above get to shoot at goal

Apparently the majority think Benny is going to say good bye to Baros this summer and rightly so. Rightly so? Have to wonder about that as our system is obviously not set up to create a lot of chances for our strikers as the above lot combined has less shots on goal all year than Henry. Combined. You can nominate any striker in the world and put him in a system that provides so little oppurtunities and you will get the same result. Less goals. If Henry played in this sytem his 80 shots at goal would become closer to 30 - 40 and goals scored would become 12 - 14

If you are a fan of Bennys system then you know his strikers suffer as he spreads the goals about. If that is the case then get off our strikers case as you cant have Bennys system and a 20 league goal a year striker as well. Unless you know a striker who will score every 2nd chance he gets as any striker under Benny's system will be lucky to have 30 shots on goal all year.

Thoughts?

3 strikers are injured, 1 striker  only came here in january
i think the stats a Bollox!

[66-1112520797]

I have to say that i do not agree with this system stuff as to why our strikers dont
score more goals because the way Rafa has got us playing i can see goals coming
from almost any player on the pitch (including Cara)
And if we had started the season with a more natural finisher i would put my house
on it that he would have scored more goals  than our top scorer (Baros) so far
this season.

[JBG]

Systems and statistics are what most of us hear at work from underachieving and talentless middle managers

The reality at liverpool this season is that many of our strikers (All of them actually) haven't had either the time or the fitness to settle into any pattern but it's to our credit that our midfielders have chipped in with their fair share of goals for the reds.

Midfielders are often set a target of 10 goals per season and Gerrard and Garcia have already reached that total with Riise not far off it. Its no coincidence that these 3 players have played in the majority of fixtures.

I think it's taken as read that morientes will come good, there is mixed opinions on baros and we all hope for the best for Cisse after his career threatening injury.

I liked JBG's line up as it loks negative at first until you realise it contains Alonso, Hamann , Gerrard, Riise, Garcia and Morientes in the line up

I have been doing a bit of research into this and apparently Benitez favoured 4-2-3-1 at Valencia. He has shown signs this season of favouring that formation also but has not always had the players available.

At first it appears negative but the truth is that its highly attacking. Alonso and Hamman are really the midfield with Gerrard, Riise and Garcia joining Morientes in attack. Benitez likes his team to start quickly and win the game early and that formation suits this.

Point of example: some newspapers reported that we played 4-4-2 against Juventus, with Baros and Le Tallec up front and Garcia, Riise, Biscan and Gerrard in midfield.

That actually was not the formation (or at least not so in the first half).

We played 4-2-3-1 in the first half. Baros was up front on his own with Garcia, Le Tallec and Riise in a line behind, with Gerrard and Biscan playing further behind. Some supporters find it difficult to work out formations and I concede myself that I often call it wrong. However, 4-2-3-1 was what I saw and this is backed up by Le Tallec's post match comments when he said Benitez asked him to play deep and mark Emerson.

The beauty of that formation is that when you attack, particularly early in a game when the players are fresh, you have a line of 3 attackers and a further attacker coming from deep, causing the opposition all sorts of problems.

[Scottbot]

Is well spotted JBG. It can be very difficult to work out the formation when you're so invlolved in watching the game (at the ground or on the TV) and you're right in saying the media often call it wrong. Benitez often says he likes his teams to attck and defend as a team. all as one if you like. this formation/personell seem to lend itself to this philosophy.

I fancy the gaffa will go out and sign a big name centre-mid in the summer. I'd put my money on Baraja coming in for Hamman and Igor.

[bigmick]

Some interesting points. Got to say that I think that St Mick doesn't in any way deserve the hoots of derision from some quarters that his original post generated. Thought provoking topics are rare enough at the moment so surely we can forgive the odd typo.
My feeling is that if you play a lone striker, either in a 4-5-1 or a 4-2-3-1 then it stands to reason that it becomes harder for that lone striker to score a goal. That said, it also depends upon how the defesive team sets up against you. If, they stay with two deep lying centre-backs then your man is constantly outnumbered. However, if they reason (probably correctly in my view) that a more effective defence would involve one of the centre backs 'stepping up' to engage an advancing midfielder occasionally and relying on the full-backs to cover in behind, then the striker should be able to get chances with clever movement. This for me is the crux. It's not about starting formations, it's about how MANY men you commit forward and how good the interplay and particularly the movement is. Garcia, for instance will always score because of the cleverness of his movement and awareness. Baros and Cisse need to do serious work in this area in my opinion.
As for 4-2-3-1 JBG, I like it but feel with the players you have included it would result in us playing a bit narrow. Possibly with more attacking fullbacks it would work (Finnan would be OK but maybe sticking Riise back to fullback and aquiring a top-class left midfielder would make it work).

[stmichael]

the 4-2-3-1 system is certainly successful. we played it at home against arsenal and gave probably our best performance of the season.

[JBG]

As for 4-2-3-1 JBG, I like it but feel with the players you have included it would result in us playing a bit narrow. Possibly with more attacking fullbacks it would work (Finnan would be OK but maybe sticking Riise back to fullback and aquiring a top-class left midfielder would make it work).

I was only giving a flavour of what the players available to Benitez this season.

It looks like we'll lose at least one of our midfielders in the summer, either Diao or Biscan, possibly both and there is no guarantee that Hamman will stay (but Benitez appears to want him to stay) and God knows what the story is with Gerrard, so I fully expect Benitez will spend a bit of money on a central midfielder.

[woof woof !]

You defend the system and at the same time point fingers at the results from the system and blame the striker for the results but not the system.

Here lies the flaw in this argument . This suggests that our strikers have had few opportunities to score and the system is to blame .

This season we have seen a return to aggressive attacking football  one of the reasons why we have seen goals coming from all areas of the team

Personally ,I have never attacked our strikers for scoring less than 20 goals per season ,I do however attack them when golden chances are continually spurned . 

The system is fine , look at the victories we've had for fks sake.Don't tell me that our strikers ,Baros in particular haven't had the opportunities to add another 50% at least to their goals per game ratio .