Liverpool FC Forum

[stmichael]

It's also sunday league managers who make their team play ridiculous tactics, such as hoof the ball up the pitch so that a centre forward can hopefully get on the end of it and score. When I used to play, the manager would sub a player if he dared tried to express himself with the ball or spend more than a second on the ball, it's ridiculous, sunday league matches don't matter, it's about a learning experience for the youngsters to improve the key skills they need and the players that do show a great style of play that is alien to the English way, never get scouted by scouts, they are over looked by a big physical presence and lots of pace. 

It seems to me that we have the ability to produce technically gifted players but cannot produce playmakers or those who can make more creative decisions on their own. I think this is mainly due to the coaching development and style in which the sport is taught at younger levels.

The nearest guy we've got to a playmaker would probably be Joe Cole, but he's never going to influence a game playing wide left for England.

[Bman]

So, for me "technical" ability is only a very small part of the equation.  At the end of the day, it's about playing simple, effective football--airtight defending and creativity going forward--not about how many triangles you can play or how many step-overs you can muster.  Spain were a tremendously talented squad full of intelligent players who were good on the ball.  The French beat them soundly in the end.  And Stu's right, England have technically gifted players as well (just as Italy have hoofers--Gattuso's a great player but no craftsman, same's true of Matarazzi) so let's not make this a sterotyping exercise in "national footballing character".

Well said Bob !

Football is quite simple really, but people like to deeply analyis games right down to the bone. But usually by then they,ve lost perspective on the game as a whole.

This word 'technically' gets my goat at times, people coin this word off to often to make them sound intelligent.
Technically    Argentina, Spain, Brazil and the checs are better than us. But they faired no better at the end of the day. So really this technical thing is an over used term that doesnt have much relavence to England getting knocked out.
England we're knocked out because they werent good enough , (technically speaking) simple.

[Bad Bob]

i've been saying for a while that the philosophy of us as a sporting nation has been wrong for years. we accept failure way too easily. i mean brian barwick came out the other day and said that sven had been "a tremendous success" as england manager. that just sums it up for me.

The Quarter finals for a country that invented the sport is absolutely embarrassing, I mentioned on here before that the English mentality is far too weak and there is an attitude of "nevermind, try again next match", which is the wrong mentality to have especially with  country that expects like England. It's different if you're from Solvenia who don't expect at all.

This whole discussion is all so familiar for me.  Substitute "football" with "hockey" and "England" with "Canada" and it's the same discussion that's been going on over here for a generation.

Like the English with football, Canadians feel that they invented hockey and thus have some proprietary claim over the game.  Hence the wailing and nashing of teeth surrounding every international hockey tournament.  Who will be selected?  Why was he selected?  Why are they playing together--it'll never work?  Why can't we beat Sweden/Finland/Czech Republic?  Are they more technically gifted than us?  Does the ref have it in for us?  Is the international game too soft and slow for the tough, fast Canadian lads? Etc.  It's the exact same kind of stuff.  To make matters worse, though, hockey is not an internationally loved sport--you'll never see 32 or 16 or even 10 competitive national teams suiting up at the Winter Olympics.  And, realistically, there are only 6 teams in the world that can compete on Canada's level.

So, when Canada loses, which they do often (2002 Olympics aside) the nation goes into mourning and the knives come out.  All sense of perspective vanishes.  Never mind that Sweden, Finland, Russia, Slovakia, the Czechs and the US actually are damn good hockey countries.  Never mind that Canada does not have a divine right to win just by virtue of inventing the game.  Never mind that having the best squad in the world on paper does not necessarily translate into a fluid team on the ice.  No, rational thought is abandoned and every self-styled expert in the nation has an explanation for why Canada can't cut it at major international tournaments.  Sound familiar?

Point is, it's all bollox.  European technical superiority doesn't explain it.  Fussy international referees don't explain it.  Jet lag, short prep time, softer ice, etc doesn't explain it.  Why does Canada consistently fail at major hockey tournaments?  For the same reason that England consistently fails at major football tournaments--the players and coaches can't handle the pressure applied by the media and the general public.  They get scared, so they get conservative.  They pick all the big names regardless of form.  Put guys out who will not work well together.  Bring promising youngsters along but don't play them.  Bring big names who are hurt or just starting to recover in the hopes that they can go.  Believe me, the parallels are uncanny but it can all be traced back to a conservative mentality borne of intense public scrutiny.

England will win a World Cup when they get a coaching staff and a group of players who are mentally strong enough to stand up to that scrutiny and perform to their full potential despite the media circus that surrounds them.

[Bman]

It's also sunday league managers who make their team play ridiculous tactics, such as hoof the ball up the pitch so that a centre forward can hopefully get on the end of it and score. When I used to play, the manager would sub a player if he dared tried to express himself with the ball or spend more than a second on the ball, it's ridiculous, sunday league matches don't matter, it's about a learning experience for the youngsters to improve the key skills they need and the players that do show a great style of play that is alien to the English way, never get scouted by scouts, they are over looked by a big physical presence and lots of pace. 

It seems to me that we have the ability to produce technically gifted players but cannot produce playmakers or those who can make more creative decisions on their own. I think this is mainly due to the coaching development and style in which the sport is taught at younger levels.

The nearest guy we've got to a playmaker would probably be Joe Cole, but he's never going to influence a game playing wide left for England.

Yes I agree the problem does start at grass roots level, I remember a member on here saying Jody Morris was an extremely skillful player during his early years. And a comparison was made to him playing like a Brazilian would. With all the flair etc. But when you watched at a proffessional level for Chelsea you'd never of thought he was or used to be a wizard on the ball. The chap on here said they made him change his game to a more battling midfielder.

This just highlights kids arent allowed to express themselves with a ball, like they do elsewhere in the world.

But going back to England, I honestly believe excuse I know . If we had a better manager during the WC that would of given us a fighting chance to do better. Its easy to be wise after the event but most knowledgable football fans would of recognised Sven as a weakness before the tournament.

[stmichael]

England will win a World Cup when they get a coaching staff and a group of players who are mentally strong enough to stand up to that scrutiny and perform to their full potential despite the media circus that surrounds them.

Yes, England lacked passion and that natural drive in the game that we see every week in the Premiership but I don't think that would have been enough anyway..

LFC, back in the old days, became successful because they knew how to integrate a more continental approach to their English style. More recently, Chelsea, LFC and Arsenal have done the same, mainly because of their foreign managers.
BUT, it's like England haven't yet learnt the lesson their clubs have learnt. You need to combine the natural passion with something else. That's why I'm not a believer in appointing McLaren. You need to look for new ideas and things to copy from the best sides, not assume you have the perfect way of doing things.

Despite the supposed lack of "technical ability", I think as a team, we could succeed if the faith was placed in the right sort of players & the emphasis was made on the right things.  Having players abroad would definitely help because within the side, they lack a cultured frame of mind & there is this really righteous, self-important attitude that takes over.

[Bman]

Millions of discussions like this have gone on long before this, and millions will continue to go on, until or IF England ever win the damn thing.
For me, player for player whether they work here or abroad the're good enough to tackle the best. The players arent the problem, the system set-ups are, the manager was. If they had the mentality and less pressure both manager and players, providing our manager was a tactical genius on the training and playing field, there is no reason why England cant do better.

I dont think its all doom and gloom with this current crop of players anyway, as said before the youth side of the game could take a shake-up and be dragged into the 21st century. But with our national side now I dont think we're that far away. BUT and its a f.ucking big BUT with MClaren in charge I fear we'll see similar performances- results
The F.A are just as bad and dont help matters either, there appointments hinder English football to 

[clik]

We [ the english] should adopt the australian mentality to sport you play to win all this "its the taking part what counts" no its not its winning what counts and we as a nation do not put enough emphasis on our children to play to win, its all pc bullshat to the extreme where my kids sports days are now called fun days and you have no winners or losers.

[48-1119859832]

England will win a World Cup when they get a coaching staff and a group of players who are mentally strong enough to stand up to that scrutiny and perform to their full potential despite the media circus that surrounds them.

Yes, England lacked passion and that natural drive in the game that we see every week in the Premiership but I don't think that would have been enough anyway..

LFC, back in the old days, became successful because they knew how to integrate a more continental approach to their English style. More recently, Chelsea, LFC and Arsenal have done the same, mainly because of their foreign managers.
BUT, it's like England haven't yet learnt the lesson their clubs have learnt. You need to combine the natural passion with something else. That's why I'm not a believer in appointing McLaren. You need to look for new ideas and things to copy from the best sides, not assume you have the perfect way of doing things.

Despite the supposed lack of "technical ability", I think as a team, we could succeed if the faith was placed in the right sort of players & the emphasis was made on the right things.  Having players abroad would definitely help because within the side, they lack a cultured frame of mind & there is this really righteous, self-important attitude that takes over.

This is basically the outline of what I was saying. 

[Big Niall]

Does anyone know how the children in other countries play the game. In Ireland 10 year olds play on pitches that are way too big for them and you are "taught" how to kick the ball as far away from your goal as possible. Children should have small pitches, 6 aside (so they all get some ball) and there should be some sort of training badge for local level.

England  got to last 12(different rules) in 1982,last 8 in 1986,4 in 1990, didn't qualify in 94, last 16 in 1998 - farily consistent in being good but not top class. That was all well before Sven and his rubbish tactics so the problem doesn't start and stop with Sven.

Theres only 4 million in Ireland so we have no hope of ever being champions but England have 50 million and so you could be if you realised what the problem is - it is NOT one person

[LFC #1]

Does anyone know how the children in other countries play the game. In Ireland 10 year olds play on pitches that are way too big for them and you are "taught" how to kick the ball as far away from your goal as possible. Children should have small pitches, 6 aside (so they all get some ball) and there should be some sort of training badge for local level.

England  got to last 12(different rules) in 1982,last 8 in 1986,4 in 1990, didn't qualify in 94, last 16 in 1998 - farily consistent in being good but not top class. That was all well before Sven and his rubbish tactics so the problem doesn't start and stop with Sven.

Theres only 4 million in Ireland so we have no hope of ever being champions but England have 50 million and so you could be if you realised what the problem is - it is NOT one person

I know most Brasilian kids don't play on proper pitches till at least 9 or 10. They grow up on Futsal, which encourages excellent ball control, passing and movement in a very confined space. Hence why Brasilian players are so technically gifted.

Obviously some of them who grow up in favellas can only play on the street, which I would assume is also a confined space with many kids playing at once.

[FrankM]

Does anyone know how the children in other countries play the game. In Ireland 10 year olds play on pitches that are way too big for them and you are "taught" how to kick the ball as far away from your goal as possible. Children should have small pitches, 6 aside (so they all get some ball) and there should be some sort of training badge for local level.

England  got to last 12(different rules) in 1982,last 8 in 1986,4 in 1990, didn't qualify in 94, last 16 in 1998 - farily consistent in being good but not top class. That was all well before Sven and his rubbish tactics so the problem doesn't start and stop with Sven.

Theres only 4 million in Ireland so we have no hope of ever being champions but England have 50 million and so you could be if you realised what the problem is - it is NOT one person

Dont know where you are from Niall but in my area kids up to the age of 11 play on small pitches. They dont go to full size until they are 12.