Liverpool FC Forum

[bigmick]

Previous form should be taken into account but it shouldn't mean mistakes are ignored.

If it were injury time in the derby, 1-1, and Gerrard picked the ball up, ran 50 yards back into our area and smashed it into the top corner, we wouldn't be saying "ah well, he's bailed us out in the past". Now that's a flippant example but Lucas doesn't intentionally up.

No one is saying Gerrard should be vilified but Lucas giving away a free kick results in over-the-top abuse whilst Gerrard conceding a pen is hardly mentioned.

How about we all see if Lucas can redeem himself this season rather than right him off? He's not even been our worst player so far this season.

I'm not sure I am "righting" Lucas off. I'm simply saying that in my opinion he isn't capable of playing the role we are asking him to. That doesn't mean he couldn't have a stab at being the holder, or even playing off Torres, but as the more advanced of the two central midfielders he isn't up to it in my opinion.

Equally, nobody is asking anyone to "ignore" mistakes, I'm just stating the obvious that certain players are given more leeway by fans because "mistakes" don't form the body of their game.

I'm not really sure I understand your point about Gerrards specatacular own goal to be honest mate.

As for the "waiting to see if Lucas can redeem himself" I'm not sure I understand that either. I'm not picking the team so if Rafa keeps bunging him in, I don't see that I've got much option than "waiting to see if he can redeem himself". I've just given an opinion that he won't, if you prefer to wait and see before making your final call, it's all good.

As for him not being our worst player so far this season, just out of interest who has then?

[DrPepe]

Previous form should be taken into account but it shouldn't mean mistakes are ignored.

If it were injury time in the derby, 1-1, and Gerrard picked the ball up, ran 50 yards back into our area and smashed it into the top corner, we wouldn't be saying "ah well, he's bailed us out in the past". Now that's a flippant example but Lucas doesn't intentionally up.

No one is saying Gerrard should be vilified but Lucas giving away a free kick results in over-the-top abuse whilst Gerrard conceding a pen is hardly mentioned.

How about we all see if Lucas can redeem himself this season rather than right him off? He's not even been our worst player so far this season.

I'm not sure I am "righting" Lucas off. I'm simply saying that in my opinion he isn't capable of playing the role we are asking him to. That doesn't mean he couldn't have a stab at being the holder, or even playing off Torres, but as the more advanced of the two central midfielders he isn't up to it in my opinion.

Equally, nobody is asking anyone to "ignore" mistakes, I'm just stating the obvious that certain players are given more leeway by fans because "mistakes" don't form the body of their game.

I'm not really sure I understand your point about Gerrards specatacular own goal to be honest mate.

As for the "waiting to see if Lucas can redeem himself" I'm not sure I understand that either. I'm not picking the team so if Rafa keeps bunging him in, I don't see that I've got much option than "waiting to see if he can redeem himself". I've just given an opinion that he won't, if you prefer to wait and see before making your final call, it's all good.

As for him not being our worst player so far this season, just out of interest who has then?

worst players this season?

take your pick from those who showed lack of application to their jobs marking from set pieces 

[Sir Roger]

The CM position is crucial to our link up. Lucas just isn't capable of doing that. He can play RB, Left back etc and might surprise us with his play there but NOT CM. Most of you don't have anything concrete to say other than he will improve (what if he doesn;t and how many more games will you give him) and "what about the 30 yards pass that send Torres away..", one pass in a thousand means he is shlt 999/1000 passes. I think even you or I can send a pass like if given the chance. Where are his highlights? What is his attritbutes, name them please as I really want to know. I'm not blaming Lucas as much since it was Rafa who put him there but obviously we can do better just by switching Gerrard back there and put Lucas behind Torres or something. Lucas maybe trying hard but he just doesn't make the grade. Are you guys willing to jeopardize this season just to prove a point that Lucas is Shlt? I can't speak for yourself for me, I won't take that chance since he's been given enough game to prove he is not a CM.

I am still waiting for the description of Lucas strengths
I also asked what chances hasnt he been given?

[Bammo]

Mick: The comment about righting him off wasn't aimed at you specifically, you just happen to be the one to make the most reasoned arguments so you're the one I replied to

The own goal comment - it was just to hint that if Gerrard did something like that there would still be people who let him off with it, even if it was intentional. Gerrard makes stupid mistakes (pen vs Villa) and is forgiven because of past form. That's understandable but it shouldn't fully excuse him. Because Lucas has no past heroics he is slated for any mistake made - not just the big ones.

Now I'm not for a second saying Lucas should be excused for his mistakes. I'm just asking for perspective, again this isn't really aimed at you Mick.

Sir Roger: Lucas is a decent ball winner and his pass completion rates are as good if not better than other Liverpool players. Makalele, Deschamps...both class players who made careers out of simply giving it to the nearest team mate. The dilemma this then raises (and I think Mick has alluded to it) is that he's doing the same job as Masch.

Is there need for both of them in the team? For me, not if they both play as DM. Move Lucas further forwards (he did a bit against Bolton) or drop one of them and add Yossi etc to the starting line up. On current form it's not even certain Lucas would be the one to go...

[Sir Roger]

Mick: The comment about righting him off wasn't aimed at you specifically, you just happen to be the one to make the most reasoned arguments so you're the one I replied to

The own goal comment - it was just to hint that if Gerrard did something like that there would still be people who let him off with it, even if it was intentional. Gerrard makes stupid mistakes (pen vs Villa) and is forgiven because of past form. That's understandable but it shouldn't fully excuse him. Because Lucas has no past heroics he is slated for any mistake made - not just the big ones.

Now I'm not for a second saying Lucas should be excused for his mistakes. I'm just asking for perspective, again this isn't really aimed at you Mick.

Sir Roger: Lucas is a decent ball winner and his pass completion rates are as good if not better than other Liverpool players. Makalele, Deschamps...both class players who made careers out of simply giving it to the nearest team mate. The dilemma this then raises (and I think Mick has alluded to it) is that he's doing the same job as Masch.

Is there need for both of them in the team? For me, not if they both play as DM. Move Lucas further forwards (he did a bit against Bolton) or drop one of them and add Yossi etc to the starting line up. On current form it's not even certain Lucas would be the one to go...

I have been watching Liverpool for long enough (as many have here) to know what a good, average and woeful player looks like.
For example: within three to four games of watching pennant play I knew what type of player he was and said to my brother that he was a waste of time and should be got rid of. He score a couple of goals (one against chelsea I remember) put a few decent crosses in and that was it. He never did anything terribly wrong. He was just ineffective. Mainly because he is an egotistical lazy gobsh!te. Im not comparing Lucas to him because I actually like the guy and feel he is trying his best. Therein lies the rub. His best isnt good enough and if he cant improve dramatically he could cost us the title

[heimdall]

Previous form should be taken into account but it shouldn't mean mistakes are ignored.

If it were injury time in the derby, 1-1, and Gerrard picked the ball up, ran 50 yards back into our area and smashed it into the top corner, we wouldn't be saying "ah well, he's bailed us out in the past". Now that's a flippant example but Lucas doesn't intentionally up.

No one is saying Gerrard should be vilified but Lucas giving away a free kick results in over-the-top abuse whilst Gerrard conceding a pen is hardly mentioned.

How about we all see if Lucas can redeem himself this season rather than right him off? He's not even been our worst player so far this season.

I'm not sure I am "righting" Lucas off. I'm simply saying that in my opinion he isn't capable of playing the role we are asking him to. That doesn't mean he couldn't have a stab at being the holder, or even playing off Torres, but as the more advanced of the two central midfielders he isn't up to it in my opinion.

Equally, nobody is asking anyone to "ignore" mistakes, I'm just stating the obvious that certain players are given more leeway by fans because "mistakes" don't form the body of their game.

I'm not really sure I understand your point about Gerrards specatacular own goal to be honest mate.

As for the "waiting to see if Lucas can redeem himself" I'm not sure I understand that either. I'm not picking the team so if Rafa keeps bunging him in, I don't see that I've got much option than "waiting to see if he can redeem himself". I've just given an opinion that he won't, if you prefer to wait and see before making your final call, it's all good.

As for him not being our worst player so far this season, just out of interest who has then?

worst players this season?

take your pick from those who showed lack of application to their jobs marking from set pieces 

Mick asked you for a name, please humour him and us by actually giving us the name of the player(s) who have been worse than Lucas so far.

The reason Lucas gets so much stick is becuase he has nothign in the plus column yet. Over the career of a player they have great moments and bad moments, that happens to all players including Gerrard, Torres and Carragher but the crucial distinction between those three and Lucas is the plus column is vast and th eminus column is very small. For Lucas they are at best even, that is why he gets more stick.

Kuyt used to get loads of stick on here because he was the same as Lucas, i,e the plusses were cancelled out by negative points but Kuyt's plus column got much bigger in the tail end of last season so at the moment, even though he's not playing great, he doesn't get that much stick.

It really is quite simple, well to me it is anyway.

The problem with Lucas is despite 30 yard passes,which is after all what he is paid to do anyway, he just doesn't show enough.

[7_Kewell]

has lucas EVER passed the ball FORWARD?

if he has i've never seen it.

[Sir Roger]

Previous form should be taken into account but it shouldn't mean mistakes are ignored.

If it were injury time in the derby, 1-1, and Gerrard picked the ball up, ran 50 yards back into our area and smashed it into the top corner, we wouldn't be saying "ah well, he's bailed us out in the past". Now that's a flippant example but Lucas doesn't intentionally up.

No one is saying Gerrard should be vilified but Lucas giving away a free kick results in over-the-top abuse whilst Gerrard conceding a pen is hardly mentioned.

How about we all see if Lucas can redeem himself this season rather than right him off? He's not even been our worst player so far this season.

I'm not sure I am "righting" Lucas off. I'm simply saying that in my opinion he isn't capable of playing the role we are asking him to. That doesn't mean he couldn't have a stab at being the holder, or even playing off Torres, but as the more advanced of the two central midfielders he isn't up to it in my opinion.

Equally, nobody is asking anyone to "ignore" mistakes, I'm just stating the obvious that certain players are given more leeway by fans because "mistakes" don't form the body of their game.

I'm not really sure I understand your point about Gerrards specatacular own goal to be honest mate.

As for the "waiting to see if Lucas can redeem himself" I'm not sure I understand that either. I'm not picking the team so if Rafa keeps bunging him in, I don't see that I've got much option than "waiting to see if he can redeem himself". I've just given an opinion that he won't, if you prefer to wait and see before making your final call, it's all good.

As for him not being our worst player so far this season, just out of interest who has then?

worst players this season?

take your pick from those who showed lack of application to their jobs marking from set pieces 

Mick asked you for a name, please humour him and us by actually giving us the name of the player(s) who have been worse than Lucas so far.

The reason Lucas gets so much stick is becuase he has nothign in the plus column yet. Over the career of a player they have great moments and bad moments, that happens to all players including Gerrard, Torres and Carragher but the crucial distinction between those three and Lucas is the plus column is vast and th eminus column is very small. For Lucas they are at best even, that is why he gets more stick.

Kuyt used to get loads of stick on here because he was the same as Lucas, i,e the plusses were cancelled out by negative points but Kuyt's plus column got much bigger in the tail end of last season so at the moment, even though he's not playing great, he doesn't get that much stick.

It really is quite simple, well to me it is anyway.

The problem with Lucas is despite 30 yard passes,which is after all what he is paid to do anyway, he just doesn't show enough.

I dont know whether it should be about who is worse than Lucas. Hopefully he should be trying to eradicate the constant mistakes and not looking to see if someone is sh!tter than him. He wont get better by doing that

[Bammo]

Heimdall, I'm not sure if your comment was aimed at me (who Mick replied to) or Dr Pepe (who you quoted).

Babel has been much worse than Lucas and was rightly dropped. Carragher and Mascherano have so far not played too well (no better than Lucas). Until his chest flick on Saturday Kuyt has been uninspiring. Please note, I am not saying they have played shi.t, I'm not saying they are bad players. I am saying that Lucas has not been significantly worse than them.

[kazza]

By contrast, when someone's sole contribution froma  creative sense is passing it five yards sideways and backwards, when he also fecks up the thing from a defensive sense people start to get a bit hot under the collar.

Now who is being clueless. I am not saying he is a world beater but your statement quoted is as clueless as saying he is as important as Gerrard. Or were you being sarcastic, because I can never tell. Clearly he has done better than a five yard pass, but don't let the truth get in the way.

When Carra first started he was awful in some games (and I don't mean that Utd game either). Thank feck that this forum was not running then otherwise we may never have seen him develop into the player he is.

Lucas is 22 and will develop both mentally and physically. I was much stronger, faster and dare I say it more confident when I was 28 than when I was 22, so there is plenty of room for improvement, writing him off now is riduculous.

Point is we are stuck with him and we need him at his best and the only way that that will happen is to support him both as a team and as fans. Constant ridicule will never make the situation any better. So what do we want? To whine and moan, or to see the best of a LIVERPOOL PLAYER. Sorry to say but constant attacks on the player are NOT the actions of true fans.

I would much rather win than have everyone think I am clever

[DrPepe]

By contrast, when someone's sole contribution froma  creative sense is passing it five yards sideways and backwards, when he also fecks up the thing from a defensive sense people start to get a bit hot under the collar.

Now who is being clueless. I am not saying he is a world beater but your statement quoted is as clueless as saying he is as important as Gerrard. Or were you being sarcastic, because I can never tell. Clearly he has done better than a five yard pass, but don't let the truth get in the way.

When Carra first started he was awful in some games (and I don't mean that Utd game either). Thank feck that this forum was not running then otherwise we may never have seen him develop into the player he is.

Lucas is 22 and will develop both mentally and physically. I was much stronger, faster and dare I say it more confident when I was 28 than when I was 22, so there is plenty of room for improvement, writing him off now is riduculous.

Point is we are stuck with him and we need him at his best and the only way that that will happen is to support him both as a team and as fans. Constant ridicule will never make the situation any better. So what do we want? To whine and moan, or to see the best of a LIVERPOOL PLAYER. Sorry to say but constant attacks on the player are NOT the actions of true fans.

I would much rather win than have everyone think I am clever

fair comments regarding lucas/player development kazza

for the benefit of heimdall, carragher has been poor, just to point out a couple of serious feckups that have cost us:

gives away v cheap freekick to spurs then is weak in the challenge with bassong

villas second - carra didn't impose himself in the challenge at the near post and is beaten

the carra/skrtl collision

Now i don't like to scapegoat our players , but imo there are several individuals who are not playing at their level. Lucas is ceetainly not the worst of them

[akumaface]

The fact is that if we are going to have a chance to win this season, we can't play LUCAS in CM. Waiting for Aquilani is not an excuse as we were all arguing why didn't Rafa put the best team on the field for the last couple of season. For those Lucas Supporter, tell me if you think putting Lucas in CM is in fact our strongest team! We should put Gerrard back in the Middle and put Beni behind Torres. The rest are the usual. That would be our best team and not the one with LUcas.

[akumaface]

By contrast, when someone's sole contribution froma  creative sense is passing it five yards sideways and backwards, when he also fecks up the thing from a defensive sense people start to get a bit hot under the collar.

Now who is being clueless. I am not saying he is a world beater but your statement quoted is as clueless as saying he is as important as Gerrard. Or were you being sarcastic, because I can never tell. Clearly he has done better than a five yard pass, but don't let the truth get in the way.

When Carra first started he was awful in some games (and I don't mean that Utd game either). Thank feck that this forum was not running then otherwise we may never have seen him develop into the player he is.

Lucas is 22 and will develop both mentally and physically. I was much stronger, faster and dare I say it more confident when I was 28 than when I was 22, so there is plenty of room for improvement, writing him off now is riduculous.

Point is we are stuck with him and we need him at his best and the only way that that will happen is to support him both as a team and as fans. Constant ridicule will never make the situation any better. So what do we want? To whine and moan, or to see the best of a LIVERPOOL PLAYER. Sorry to say but constant attacks on the player are NOT the actions of true fans.

I would much rather win than have everyone think I am clever

fair comments regarding lucas/player development kazza

for the benefit of heimdall, carragher has been poor, just to point out a couple of serious feckups that have cost us:

gives away v cheap freekick to spurs then is weak in the challenge with bassong

villas second - carra didn't impose himself in the challenge at the near post and is beaten

the carra/skrtl collision

Now i don't like to scapegoat our players , but imo there are several individuals who are not playing at their level. Lucas is ceetainly not the worst of them

Based on your argument, Lucas is not the worse player this season. But honestly, do you think it is more likely Carra will bounced back or Lucas suddenly becomes a world beater....For CB, we don't have much choice as Agger was hurt and we didn;t have any cover until we got the big Greek. Carra had proven he can do the job. ANd yes his performances dipped but you probably had watched football long enough that mistake made by the CB always get magnified. If you are a fw, you score a goal and fans forget all the misses. Collectively, the whole team are not playing up to par. But you think we could do worse than having Gerrard back in CM? If you want to bring Lucas along, let him play in garbage time or something. I have no idea why Rafa bench Babel while sticking with Lucas......If you are saying benching would damage Lucas confidence and why no one says anything when Babel is benched.... I belive he is also considered young.

[LiverpoolMadman]

The fact is that if we are going to have a chance to win this season, we can't play LUCAS in CM. Waiting for Aquilani is not an excuse as we were all arguing why didn't Rafa put the best team on the field for the last couple of season. For those Lucas Supporter, tell me if you think putting Lucas in CM is in fact our strongest team! We should put Gerrard back in the Middle and put Beni behind Torres. The rest are the usual. That would be our best team and not the one with LUcas.

I agree with take Lucas out. put SG in midfield but why play Beni behind Torres . I would love to see Ngog play together with Torres ( 4-1-2-1-2 diamond ) ...

[kazza]

The fact is that if we are going to have a chance to win this season, we can't play LUCAS in CM. Waiting for Aquilani is not an excuse as we were all arguing why didn't Rafa put the best team on the field for the last couple of season. For those Lucas Supporter, tell me if you think putting Lucas in CM is in fact our strongest team! We should put Gerrard back in the Middle and put Beni behind Torres. The rest are the usual. That would be our best team and not the one with LUcas.

I agree with take Lucas out. put SG in midfield but why play Beni behind Torres . I would love to see Ngog play together with Torres ( 4-1-2-1-2 diamond ) ...

I am not sure that is the right option. Gerrard is not diciplined enough as a player to play that role and might well leave us exposed as he pushes forward. Besides you would not be using Gerrard to his greatest strengths so handcuffing him will limit our potential.