Is it time for the unthinkable? - Caretaker manager time?

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby Ciggy » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:23 pm

Igor Zidane wrote:Rafa is gone . End off . Now your can argue all you like about how we got here or who's fault it is ,but it is irrelevent mate . The Benetez arguement is dead in the water ,it's over , you got your wish.

Watching his pre match press conference confirms it  :down:

"I don't want people talking about me. It doesn't matter."

That statement alone speaks volumes.............
There is no-one anywhere in the world at any stage who is any bigger or any better than this football club.

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REST IN PEACE PHIL, YOU WILL NEVER BE FORGOTTEN.
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Postby heimdall » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:27 pm

Igor Zidane wrote:
bigmick wrote:That's a well balanced post Lynds with some excellent points. I would say on Lucas that if he were the sole holder he would look better than he does alongside Mash, and on Kuyt he would look better if Johnson was fit. In that sense you could argue both players are a bit unlucky to be having their inadequacies so graphically exposed. I don't agree on Aquilani as I think he's simply not good enough and I'm afraid another truly awful signing. The appearance segment of his transfer fee is miniscule when compared to the fifteen million Euro's we will have paid for him by the end of THIS SEASON, regardless of how many times he plays.

What we are seeing unfortunately is the complete and utter unravelment of an entire managerial philosophy. From the way the players are handled, through a religious sticking to a system which the squad is ill equipped to be strong in, through a reluctance to play a more expansive style, we are seeing a manager who is lost in a sea of confusion. The players can see it as well, hence their reluctance to bust a gut to save a ship which is well and truly on the way to the depths under the current captain.

It's odd to me that people are keen to tell us all now to see "the bigger picture". My contention is that under the current management structure, you could have all the billionaires you want but you will still have a football team which performs massively below its potential. The ire of the fans ought to be a two pronged attack IMHO. For sure cut the cancer of the owners out of the club, but lets not forget the chronic and disasterous mismanagement of the team and the resources he has had at his disposal from Benitez. Compare and contrast his performance this season with Ferguson, who lost Ronaldo and Tevez in the Summer and has like us had many big players injured for much of the season. One of the two managers developed a new way of playing which maximised the resources at his disposal, switching the position of his most influencial player. One of the two made a 60 odd million quid profit on transfers in the Summer. One of the two bought a bloke from Wigan for 18 million quid who despite a slow start now looks like he'll be a good buy, supported at every turn by his manager. One of the two broke even on transfers, and spent all the money he recouped (around 38 million quid). This fella bought a right full back who looks like a good buy to me, and a central midfielder who is a disasterous signing. He's tried to get the team to play in exactly the same way as he did previously, despite obviously not having the personel to make it work. He hasn't supported his new signings in anything like the same way. One of the clubs in question is still in the Champions League, has won the Carling Cup, and may well win the title for the fourth year in a row. The other team in question got knocked out of the group stages of the Champions League, knocked out of the FA Cup at home by Reading, knocked out of the early stages of the Carling Cup, and will probably finish outside of the top four in the Premiership.

Compare and contrast. Big picture? You decide.

Mick your still making a none arguement . Rafa is gone . End off . Now your can argue all you like about how we got here or who's fault it is ,but it is irrelevent mate . The Benetez arguement is dead in the water ,it's over , you got your wish . Now lets get everyones wish and get rid of the owners.

Has Rafa resigned as manager then, why isn't that in the newspapers?

For me it is NOT a non-argument until he picks up his sombrero and waddles off into the sunset. At that point I will switch my focus fully over to the owners.
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Postby Sabre » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:28 pm

Ciggy wrote:With 8 games left in the league no its not time to ditch Rafa and bring in a caretaker for the remainder of the season, I think May the 9th 2010 will be Rafa's last game in charge and the club and rafa will part company.

Is Rafa to blame for this seasons failings absolutly, is he alone in that? no the players are also responsible for the terrible season we are having.

Rafa's mistakes this season all started when he sold Alonso, Hyypia & Arbeloa, and paying 17 million on Glen Johnson & 20 million for an injured player, a play maker that was supposed to replace Alonso that we have seen a handfull of times its now March he was supposed to be available last October.
Rumour has it we cannot afford to pay for him because his contract was appearance based I think Alberto will be on a plane back to Italy in the summer, only to return to England for CL games or for Italian friendlies with his national team.

IMO Rafa should have paid 20 million for a world class striker, given Torres's injury record. I think Glen Johnson is an excellent player but his defending leaves a lot to be desired, we would have been better keeping Arbeloa and playing Johnson on the right wing, a massive improvement on Dirk Kuyt.

Dirk Kuyt another mistake from Rafa playing an out of form player that is clearly knackerd from playing nearly every game this season, knackerd because he's all over the pitch, knackerd because he gives the ball away and runs around chasing it back, only to give it away again once he has it.
I like Dirk dont get me wrong, I wish all Liverpool players had his fight and determination, but as a footballer he isnt very good.

He does work hard for the team and he does run a lot but so did Linford Christie only he had pace, Dirk however does not, has no technical ability, he cannot dribble past players and when he gets the ball at his feet his feet seem like they are stuck in the mud cause he can't turn with the ball so another attack breaks down or he will get crowded out by other teams players and ends up losing posession.  Not to mention he has been out of form practically all season yet continues to be the first name on the team sheet and hardly ever gets subbed until the game is nearly over.

His flaws and errors might not be so glaringly obvious if he was played in his natural position as a striker and to be in that box at all times instead of playing midfielder, winger, left back, right back, defender because he is all over the pitch in every single game, he was bought as a striker but is not playing as one and that is not down to Dirk that is down to Rafa.

Another reason that we have been so poor this season is Alonso's replacement that fella masquerading as a Brazilian footballer in midfield 2nd name on the team sheet another Rafa favourite.  He was bought as an attacking midfielder was supposed to be Gerrards replacement but has been turned into a poor mans version of Mascherano doing the same job but not as good, conceeding silly free kicks, and doing a very good job immitating a crab passing it sideways, has no flair, doesnt score goals, and offers nothing attack wise, this fella is supposed to be our playmaker.

He should be no where near our starting 11 never mind being in it every single bloody game, a squad player at best and is not good enough for LFC who are out to win trophys we wont be winning anything in the near future if this fella becomes a permanent fixture for years to come.

Its not his fault he plays every game like Kuyt its Rafa's he picks the team he's picking these two players, when the team needs something different, they both need dropping Aqualini needs to play and Benayoun or Babel need to replace Kuyt on the right.

Insua is another problem, but the kid has something and has shown glimpses so I wont write him off just yet, plus we are hardly gifted with left backs and with Aurelio always injured there is no one else to take his place, we will just have to ride out the season and hope Insua doesnt get injured.

Another problem with Rafa is he swaps players like for like, he doesnt gamble on different players changing the game, he doesnt drag off players that are playing shite or drop them.  He doesnt wipe the floor with them at half time, they just dont fear him. His tactics are for us not to get beat first and formost and keep possession we are so predictable, so boring, we cant score and pass and move football has become a thing confined to the history books.

What is not Rafa's fault this season is senior players and our captain playing absolute dog shit, Stevie has only one thing on his mind and thats the WC and not to get injured before it, and he certainly doesnt want to be fighting for 4th place, or playing in the Europa league. And when we are not in the CL next season they have no one else to blame but themselves.  Injuries havent helped either but other teams cope so I cannot use that as an excuse mind you Chelsea dont have Ngog as backup for Drogba and that comes down to the owners for lack of investment.

I like Rafa and I dont enjoy saying any of this, I like him as a person even though many dont including half of our fans.
He has given us some great times and I thank him for that, and his down fall will be because of the likes of Kuyt, Lucas resulting in us not winning many games because they are in the team.

I have a whole lot to say about the owners and everyone knows I hate them, and they are part of the bigger picture and they will be the downfall of the club, if and when Rafa leaves and a new man is brought in they will still be here and things will get worst so long as they are in charge of running the club.

I have to agree much of this.  It's a good post.

I can't understand why men like Riera pay their bad efforts with bench, and Lucas and Kuyt do not. And many other things.

I also agree in the point you make about being more than one culprit.
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Postby heimdall » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:31 pm

RED BEERGOGGLES wrote:
bigmick wrote:What we are seeing unfortunately is the complete and utter unravelment of an entire managerial philosophy. From the way the players are handled, through a religious sticking to a system which the squad is ill equipped to be strong in, through a reluctance to play a more expansive style, we are seeing a manager who is lost in a sea of confusion. The players can see it as well, hence their reluctance to bust a gut to save a ship which is well and truly on the way to the depths under the current captain.

It's odd to me that people are keen to tell us all now to see "the bigger picture". My contention is that under the current management structure, you could have all the billionaires you want but you will still have a football team which performs massively below its potential. The ire of the fans ought to be a two pronged attack IMHO. For sure cut the cancer of the owners out of the club, but lets not forget the chronic and disasterous mismanagement of the team and the resources he has had at his disposal from Benitez. Compare and contrast his performance this season with Ferguson, who lost Ronaldo and Tevez in the Summer and has like us had many big players injured for much of the season. One of the two managers developed a new way of playing which maximised the resources at his disposal, switching the position of his most influencial player. One of the two made a 60 odd million quid profit on transfers in the Summer. One of the two bought a bloke from Wigan for 18 million quid who despite a slow start now looks like he'll be a good buy, supported at every turn by his manager. One of the two broke even on transfers, and spent all the money he recouped (around 38 million quid). This fella bought a right full back who looks like a good buy to me, and a central midfielder who is a disasterous signing. He's tried to get the team to play in exactly the same way as he did previously, despite obviously not having the personel to make it work. He hasn't supported his new signings in anything like the same way. One of the clubs in question is still in the Champions League, has won the Carling Cup, and may well win the title for the fourth year in a row. The other team in question got knocked out of the group stages of the Champions League, knocked out of the FA Cup at home by Reading, knocked out of the early stages of the Carling Cup, and will probably finish outside of the top four in the Premiership.

Compare and contrast. Big picture? You decide.

I would disagree , Last Season we believed Rafa would be the man to take us forward and after signing his new contract I and many other fans considered this to be the proof that Rafa had received assurances from the owners that he would be allowed to compete financially in the transfer market ,but what we seen and are continuing to see is  the eventual  dismantling of our assets completely to the detriment of the club ,then people talk about Johnson being talented surely they cant mean in a defensive capacity because the Lad has been a complete failure in that respect and then we have the biggest selling point for the dissenters Lucas ,well let me tell you about this kid ,Earlier in the season we had Mascherano throwing his toys out the pram and then we had Gerrard playing with complete disinterest given his spat with Benitez over him vetoing his operation in order to enhance his fitness for the world cup ,not to mention the complete and utter capitulation of the defence and through all this Lucas put in a shift while hurdling over the infeasible amount of dummies on the pitch ok he is limited but not in heart mate ,because we would be floundering in mid table obscurity if we had  waited for Gerrard to make a tackle of any description  ???

I am not happy with our performances on the pitch like many other fans ,but to suggest the subsequent removal of Benitez is a on a par with the owners being ousted shows an ignorance I haven't ciphered from your posts before ,the owners are the route to all our problems they have systematically derailed and undermined this club both in a financial sense and in a sense of complete indifference ,they have single handedly brought this great club to its knees

I would also like to take this occasion to explain the term Bigger picture ,its simply metaphorically speaking viewing the whole travesty in its despairing entirety and not the some what myopic view associated with tunnel vision ,and I apologize if my prose seems some what acute but I am completely weary of the dirge being written about the supposedly marked solution to our problems ,and I will make this my last post for a while my sanity simply demands it  :(

Who manages the team, is it Rafa or the owners?

How are the owners responsible for how cr@p we are currently playing, please explain that.  Were they the ones who forced Alonso to leave, were they the ones who wanted Aquaman signed? How else have the owners caused us to become so bad. Come on hit us with some enlightened views as me and BigMick are clearly so ignorant in your eyes of who is actually responsible for the teams performance on the pitch.
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Postby Ola Mr Benitez » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:38 pm

zarababe wrote:We have a good manager - we have a bad policy .. which makes it impossible for ANY MANAGER to operate

Im afraid we dont have a good manager.

We actually have a good team, but it is not allowed to be creative.

We actually have a good team, but it is never congratulated when it has played well.

We actually have a good team, but we play a formation against mediocre opposition with 2 holding midfielders and only one up front (even at home)

We actually have a good team, but it is set up not to lose games rather than go out and win them

What we need is a manager who can get more out of these players.  This is not Rafa's way.  It has been failing for 3 seasons now
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Postby account deleted by request » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:40 pm

From reading the papers it appears that we would have to find £16million cash to pay off Rafa immediately after sacking him, so I THINK he will still be here next season unless he walks. I DON'T BELIEVE HE WILL WALK as NO WHERE else will he be given the same control over a club as he has here, and NO WHERE else will he have such a ready excuse for all his mistakes as he has here.

If we can't afford to sack him, I think we should bring in someone above him as a Director of football. For me Rafa has been given too much power with absent owners, a second in command who is noted to be a "yes man" in Lee, and a staff mainly picked and brought in by Rafa.

Not an ideal solution I agree, but perhaps the only one we can afford given our current situation and present owners.
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Postby tubby » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:41 pm

heimdall wrote:
RED BEERGOGGLES wrote:
bigmick wrote:What we are seeing unfortunately is the complete and utter unravelment of an entire managerial philosophy. From the way the players are handled, through a religious sticking to a system which the squad is ill equipped to be strong in, through a reluctance to play a more expansive style, we are seeing a manager who is lost in a sea of confusion. The players can see it as well, hence their reluctance to bust a gut to save a ship which is well and truly on the way to the depths under the current captain.

It's odd to me that people are keen to tell us all now to see "the bigger picture". My contention is that under the current management structure, you could have all the billionaires you want but you will still have a football team which performs massively below its potential. The ire of the fans ought to be a two pronged attack IMHO. For sure cut the cancer of the owners out of the club, but lets not forget the chronic and disasterous mismanagement of the team and the resources he has had at his disposal from Benitez. Compare and contrast his performance this season with Ferguson, who lost Ronaldo and Tevez in the Summer and has like us had many big players injured for much of the season. One of the two managers developed a new way of playing which maximised the resources at his disposal, switching the position of his most influencial player. One of the two made a 60 odd million quid profit on transfers in the Summer. One of the two bought a bloke from Wigan for 18 million quid who despite a slow start now looks like he'll be a good buy, supported at every turn by his manager. One of the two broke even on transfers, and spent all the money he recouped (around 38 million quid). This fella bought a right full back who looks like a good buy to me, and a central midfielder who is a disasterous signing. He's tried to get the team to play in exactly the same way as he did previously, despite obviously not having the personel to make it work. He hasn't supported his new signings in anything like the same way. One of the clubs in question is still in the Champions League, has won the Carling Cup, and may well win the title for the fourth year in a row. The other team in question got knocked out of the group stages of the Champions League, knocked out of the FA Cup at home by Reading, knocked out of the early stages of the Carling Cup, and will probably finish outside of the top four in the Premiership.

Compare and contrast. Big picture? You decide.

I would disagree , Last Season we believed Rafa would be the man to take us forward and after signing his new contract I and many other fans considered this to be the proof that Rafa had received assurances from the owners that he would be allowed to compete financially in the transfer market ,but what we seen and are continuing to see is  the eventual  dismantling of our assets completely to the detriment of the club ,then people talk about Johnson being talented surely they cant mean in a defensive capacity because the Lad has been a complete failure in that respect and then we have the biggest selling point for the dissenters Lucas ,well let me tell you about this kid ,Earlier in the season we had Mascherano throwing his toys out the pram and then we had Gerrard playing with complete disinterest given his spat with Benitez over him vetoing his operation in order to enhance his fitness for the world cup ,not to mention the complete and utter capitulation of the defence and through all this Lucas put in a shift while hurdling over the infeasible amount of dummies on the pitch ok he is limited but not in heart mate ,because we would be floundering in mid table obscurity if we had  waited for Gerrard to make a tackle of any description  ???

I am not happy with our performances on the pitch like many other fans ,but to suggest the subsequent removal of Benitez is a on a par with the owners being ousted shows an ignorance I haven't ciphered from your posts before ,the owners are the route to all our problems they have systematically derailed and undermined this club both in a financial sense and in a sense of complete indifference ,they have single handedly brought this great club to its knees

I would also like to take this occasion to explain the term Bigger picture ,its simply metaphorically speaking viewing the whole travesty in its despairing entirety and not the some what myopic view associated with tunnel vision ,and I apologize if my prose seems some what acute but I am completely weary of the dirge being written about the supposedly marked solution to our problems ,and I will make this my last post for a while my sanity simply demands it  :(

Who manages the team, is it Rafa or the owners?

How are the owners responsible for how cr@p we are currently playing, please explain that.  Were they the ones who forced Alonso to leave, were they the ones who wanted Aquaman signed? How else have the owners caused us to become so bad. Come on hit us with some enlightened views as me and BigMick are clearly so ignorant in your eyes of who is actually responsible for the teams performance on the pitch.

It's the owners who dictate how much Rafa can spend. We wanted Barry but we couldn't get him. We wanted Vidic but we couldn't afford him. We wanted Silva but couldn't afford him. We wanted Wilshire but couldn't afford him. Those are just the ones that we know off.

YES Rafa needs to take some blame for his selections and other things but ultimatley it's the £££ that determines if we shop at a top level or at bargain basement. Ask youself if Rafa had been granted his wish to get several of his first choice players do you think we would be where we are? Do you think we would have had to bring in players like Zorba the greek, Voronin or Degen? If you and whoever else wants to ignore that then fine but don't try and sit there smug thinking it's all Rafas fault.

Sorry Heimdall no offense of anything but you really are a bit dim when it comes to the 'bigger picture'.
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Postby account deleted by request » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:42 pm

Ola Mr Benitez wrote:Im afraid we dont have a good manager.

We actually have a good team, but it is not allowed to be creative.

We actually have a good team, but it is never congratulated when it has played well.

We actually have a good team, but we play a formation against mediocre opposition with 2 holding midfielders and only one up front (even at home)

We actually have a good team, but it is set up not to lose games rather than go out and win them

What we need is a manager who can get more out of these players.  This is not Rafa's way.  It has been failing for 3 seasons now

spot on  :nod
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Postby tubby » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:42 pm

s@int wrote:From reading the papers it appears that we would have to find £16million cash to pay off Rafa immediately after sacking him, so I THINK he will still be here next season unless he walks. I DON'T BELIEVE HE WILL WALK as NO WHERE else will he be given the same control over a club as he has here, and NO WHERE else will he have such a ready excuse for all his mistakes as he has here.

If we can't afford to sack him, I think we should bring in someone above him as a Director of football. For me Rafa has been given too much power with absent owners, a second in command who is noted to be a "yes man" in Lee, and a staff mainly picked and brought in by Rafa.

Not an ideal solution I agree, but perhaps the only one we can afford given our current situation and present owners.

Rafa isn't a :censored: Saint. If someone like Kenny or others at the club talk to him and say they want him to leave he will leave. He can walk into any top club in Europe, he isn't going to stick around just to hodl onto that compensation.
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Postby heimdall » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:47 pm

bavlondon wrote:
heimdall wrote:
RED BEERGOGGLES wrote:
bigmick wrote:What we are seeing unfortunately is the complete and utter unravelment of an entire managerial philosophy. From the way the players are handled, through a religious sticking to a system which the squad is ill equipped to be strong in, through a reluctance to play a more expansive style, we are seeing a manager who is lost in a sea of confusion. The players can see it as well, hence their reluctance to bust a gut to save a ship which is well and truly on the way to the depths under the current captain.

It's odd to me that people are keen to tell us all now to see "the bigger picture". My contention is that under the current management structure, you could have all the billionaires you want but you will still have a football team which performs massively below its potential. The ire of the fans ought to be a two pronged attack IMHO. For sure cut the cancer of the owners out of the club, but lets not forget the chronic and disasterous mismanagement of the team and the resources he has had at his disposal from Benitez. Compare and contrast his performance this season with Ferguson, who lost Ronaldo and Tevez in the Summer and has like us had many big players injured for much of the season. One of the two managers developed a new way of playing which maximised the resources at his disposal, switching the position of his most influencial player. One of the two made a 60 odd million quid profit on transfers in the Summer. One of the two bought a bloke from Wigan for 18 million quid who despite a slow start now looks like he'll be a good buy, supported at every turn by his manager. One of the two broke even on transfers, and spent all the money he recouped (around 38 million quid). This fella bought a right full back who looks like a good buy to me, and a central midfielder who is a disasterous signing. He's tried to get the team to play in exactly the same way as he did previously, despite obviously not having the personel to make it work. He hasn't supported his new signings in anything like the same way. One of the clubs in question is still in the Champions League, has won the Carling Cup, and may well win the title for the fourth year in a row. The other team in question got knocked out of the group stages of the Champions League, knocked out of the FA Cup at home by Reading, knocked out of the early stages of the Carling Cup, and will probably finish outside of the top four in the Premiership.

Compare and contrast. Big picture? You decide.

I would disagree , Last Season we believed Rafa would be the man to take us forward and after signing his new contract I and many other fans considered this to be the proof that Rafa had received assurances from the owners that he would be allowed to compete financially in the transfer market ,but what we seen and are continuing to see is  the eventual  dismantling of our assets completely to the detriment of the club ,then people talk about Johnson being talented surely they cant mean in a defensive capacity because the Lad has been a complete failure in that respect and then we have the biggest selling point for the dissenters Lucas ,well let me tell you about this kid ,Earlier in the season we had Mascherano throwing his toys out the pram and then we had Gerrard playing with complete disinterest given his spat with Benitez over him vetoing his operation in order to enhance his fitness for the world cup ,not to mention the complete and utter capitulation of the defence and through all this Lucas put in a shift while hurdling over the infeasible amount of dummies on the pitch ok he is limited but not in heart mate ,because we would be floundering in mid table obscurity if we had  waited for Gerrard to make a tackle of any description  ???

I am not happy with our performances on the pitch like many other fans ,but to suggest the subsequent removal of Benitez is a on a par with the owners being ousted shows an ignorance I haven't ciphered from your posts before ,the owners are the route to all our problems they have systematically derailed and undermined this club both in a financial sense and in a sense of complete indifference ,they have single handedly brought this great club to its knees

I would also like to take this occasion to explain the term Bigger picture ,its simply metaphorically speaking viewing the whole travesty in its despairing entirety and not the some what myopic view associated with tunnel vision ,and I apologize if my prose seems some what acute but I am completely weary of the dirge being written about the supposedly marked solution to our problems ,and I will make this my last post for a while my sanity simply demands it  :(

Who manages the team, is it Rafa or the owners?

How are the owners responsible for how cr@p we are currently playing, please explain that.  Were they the ones who forced Alonso to leave, were they the ones who wanted Aquaman signed? How else have the owners caused us to become so bad. Come on hit us with some enlightened views as me and BigMick are clearly so ignorant in your eyes of who is actually responsible for the teams performance on the pitch.

It's the owners who dictate how much Rafa can spend. We wanted Barry but we couldn't get him. We wanted Vidic but we couldn't afford him. We wanted Silva but couldn't afford him. We wanted Wilshire but couldn't afford him. Those are just the ones that we know off.

YES Rafa needs to take some blame for his selections and other things but ultimatley it's the £££ that determines if we shop at a top level or at bargain basement. Ask youself if Rafa had been granted his wish to get several of his first choice players do you think we would be where we are? Do you think we would have had to bring in players like Zorba the greek, Voronin or Degen? If you and whoever else wants to ignore that then fine but don't try and sit there smug thinking it's all Rafas fault.

Sorry Heimdall no offense of anything but you really are a bit dim when it comes to the 'bigger picture'.

Curiously I do actually choose to take offence at being called dim by someone with their head so far up Rafa's :censored: that they have forgotten what good football is.

Do you agree we played well last season?
If yes then how do you explain why the apparent lack of funding, despite us only losing one player and brought in two can make such a difference because that baffles me.

In any case that argument is bullsh1t, Wenger for example has had feck all transfer money for years now and Ferguson lost 2 highly influential players and they both seem to be doing ok don't they? How can that be??? Could it be that they are very talented managers and Rafa isn't. Stop throwing insults around and actually try to be a bit objective for once and think before you post your usual blinkered "I love Rafa" cr@p.
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Postby account deleted by request » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:48 pm

bavlondon wrote:It's the owners who dictate how much Rafa can spend. We wanted Barry but we couldn't get him. We wanted Vidic but we couldn't afford him. We wanted Silva but couldn't afford him. We wanted Wilshire but couldn't afford him. Those are just the ones that we know off.

YES Rafa needs to take some blame for his selections and other things but ultimatley it's the £££ that determines if we shop at a top level or at bargain basement. Ask youself if Rafa had been granted his wish to get several of his first choice players do you think we would be where we are? Do you think we would have had to bring in players like Zorba the greek, Voronin or Degen? If you and whoever else wants to ignore that then fine but don't try and sit there smug thinking it's all Rafas fault.

Sorry Heimdall no offense of anything but you really are a bit dim when it comes to the 'bigger picture'.

And yet we could afford Keane, Dossena, Aquilani, Babel etc etc

Maybe we should concentrate more on getting our priorities right than buying players who we can't seem to fit into the team.
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Postby account deleted by request » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:54 pm

bavlondon wrote:
s@int wrote:From reading the papers it appears that we would have to find £16million cash to pay off Rafa immediately after sacking him, so I THINK he will still be here next season unless he walks. I DON'T BELIEVE HE WILL WALK as NO WHERE else will he be given the same control over a club as he has here, and NO WHERE else will he have such a ready excuse for all his mistakes as he has here.

If we can't afford to sack him, I think we should bring in someone above him as a Director of football. For me Rafa has been given too much power with absent owners, a second in command who is noted to be a "yes man" in Lee, and a staff mainly picked and brought in by Rafa.

Not an ideal solution I agree, but perhaps the only one we can afford given our current situation and present owners.

Rafa isn't a :censored: Saint. If someone like Kenny or others at the club talk to him and say they want him to leave he will leave. He can walk into any top club in Europe, he isn't going to stick around just to hodl onto that compensation.

And you know this because you have had numerous conversations with him and know him well ?

:D

I don't know him at all mate, I can't predict what he will do , but I know £16million is a lot of money to just wave goodbye to.

Houllier took us for every last penny, I don't see Rafa as any different.
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Postby Reg » Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:09 pm

Before you sack a first class manager you have to analyse the reasons for the teams failings and I suspect it is FAR from straightforward so to bay for his blood as loudly as some are doing is a sign of personal frustration more than anything. Managers dont go from good to bad in 9 months. Tell you, the day Rafa writes a book....... there will be a few red faces on this forum.
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Postby Ciggy » Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:15 pm

And this my friends is the bigger picture you should ALL read !!

http://www.football365.com/john_nichols ... 84,00.html

Watching Liverpool this season has been like watching a much-loved family dog falling ill and slowly losing the will to live; all his old joy and lust for life has evaporated. It's heartbreaking to see and you know that some time soon, he will have to be put out of his misery.

There is a yearning for the players to remove the shackles that all too visibly chain them down but clearly they are unable to do so. They seem withdrawn into themselves, bereft of creativity and excitement. As each game comes along it's easy to feel that this will be the one where they really kick on and play well, but it rarely ever is. Tonight's game against Portsmouth should be a comfortable, confidence-boosting win, but on current form that's far from likely.

Whatever team Benitez puts out plays with inhibition; a kind of rigor mortis has set in. The club is likewise atrophying. There is no vision of the future, there is merely surviving. And merely surviving is not good enough for a great old club like Liverpool.

Push is now coming to shove. With the Champions League looking to be beyond them and the Europa Cup too, if Thursday's performance is anything to go by, the club is running out of steam. Within a week or so, their season may well be over.

Its twin heart beats of Carragher and Gerrard look exhausted, shell-shocked even, as week after week they have battled to make a diamond out of the dirt. Gerrard appears not to have smiled once all season, his face set in a permanent frown. Misery permeates the club.

Poor performances are now the norm. Boring football is now the norm. Losing to the likes of Wigan and Lille is now the norm. It doesn't surprise anyone anymore. The fans loyalty to the players and to Rafa is admirable. There are too many shrill, fickle fans in football that want the world and want it now. But Anfield seems quiet these days. Hicks and Gillette seem to have sapped the fans of their passion. Like an incubus squatting on the comatose body of the club, they have drained the life out of LFC. The club and its supporters have withdrawn into themselves in a collective act of depression. This is not the noisy, vibrant Merseyside club of yore.

This weekend came the latest story of potential investors taking a 40% stake in the club. However, even if it happens, The Rhone Group will only be paying down the debt to make the club a more attractive prospect to buy. Their money may well make it easier for the club to raise the money for a new ground, but while it is a lifeline, it is not a big new future. It is a stepping stone to a new future, not the new future itself. The worry is this will act as a life support machine for the club, keeping it alive but still unhealthy.

This is a hugely crucial moment in the club's history. Liverpool, until Bill Shankly took over, were not a powerhouse of world football, far from it. They languished in the second tier, very much the poor cousins of the East Lancs road. If there isn't a major, deep, profound overhaul of the club this summer, there is no telling where the slump will end. Seriously, this is a pivotal moment.

Without Champions League money and possibly more crucially, without the bait of Champions League football to attract top players and without a new ground to maximise income on match days, Liverpool could easily slip into being a mid-table side or worse, unable to compete at the top table any more. The club stands on the verge of an era of decline.

Liverpool legend Phil Thompson launched an impressive, impassioned defence of his club on Soccer Saturday this weekend, driven, it seemed, by the very real fear that the end is nigh. This was no mere plea for more money, it was greater than that, it was a plea for the very survival of the club. Hicks and Gillett must sell up and get out or properly fund the club.

Christian Purslow appears to be trawling the world for rich people with money to spare with a degree of haste which suggests he also knows we're in end game now.

With talk of their best players being restless, with their fortunes on the pitch declining, with no vision or planning in place, Liverpool is adrift in a sea of confusion. It's just existing from day to day with owners who are divided between wanting to sell and stay but with no ability or desire to put any more money into the club and the very real possibility of not being able to service the loans they have taken out to buy it.

Surely the owners realise that this is actually decreasing the value of their asset. Surely they'd be better off selling now before it gets any worse. Christ it's a depressing mess.

The gossip about whether Rafa will stay or go is inevitable. As a long-time Rafa fan myself, even I have to admit that recently, it has started to feel like the end of an era. The energy to keep on fighting is understandably diminished. A major new investor or owner will surely want to begin a new era with a new management team, though that is still a long way away from happening.

The status quo isn't an option now. If nothing changes, the decline next season may be rapid as most of the quality players will understandably jump ship feeling they have given all they can to this cause. It will be really hard to bring in any top-quality players because Liverpool, under Hicks and Gillett, has become toxic. You need to have a future to offer new, top-notch players more than just the hope of better times at some distant, undefined point.

The coming months are some of the most important in Liverpool's history because the club is unwell and it isn't looking like it's going to recover. If it was an aged family pet, the car has been started and a blanket is being put on the back seat for that last ride. It's hard not to feel very sad.
There is no-one anywhere in the world at any stage who is any bigger or any better than this football club.

Kenny Dalglish 1/2/2011

REST IN PEACE PHIL, YOU WILL NEVER BE FORGOTTEN.
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Postby Reg » Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:22 pm

Lordie lordie Cigs thats the brutal truth isnt it? ???
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