Is it time for the unthinkable? - Caretaker manager time?

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby Scottbot » Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:05 pm

dawson99 wrote:Would we have better candidates? Struggling for 4th, no money, massive debts, players possibly leaving if the bigman goes...

In a word 'YES', fortunately the appeal of this great club runs a little deeper than our precarious financial position. I believe VERY strongly that there would be a number of top managers out there who would fancy a shot at the job.
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Postby mart » Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:36 pm

dawson99 wrote:Its all well and good shouting out about saving the club, but with amanager who aint doing us any favours why would anyone wanna buy us? Its a vicouscircle (sp). Without a good manager we wont be brought, we wont get a good manager til we are brought...

Noone buys a club because of the manager or stays away from the club because of it. Seriously the rafa-bashing is taken to new heights of stupidity.

If they want to buy the club without rafa they sack him after buying it.

The fact is that atm we are not looking for new owners, we are looking for a guy with more money than sense of the chelsea/man city type. And we can only hope that he gives the club a solid foundation with among other things a new stadium instead of just buying players until he grows tired of the club. Sadly this is what football has turned into, and while most fans talk big about not selling the clubs soul thats just because we havent had any offers from that type of owner.
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Postby Ben Patrick » Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:41 pm

Igor Zidane wrote:
dawson99 wrote:People are still blamnig the owners?

yeah the owners are pish, we all know that, but Rafa has to shoulder blame as well. Its all well and good shouting out about saving the club, but with amanager who aint doing us any favours why would anyone wanna buy us? Its a vicouscircle (sp). Without a good manager we wont be brought, we wont get a good manager til we are brought...

i dunno the answer

Distraction , the club is most important . Do not get distracted by side issues anymore , The season is lost the manager is lost you've won your arguement . NOW CAN WE CONENTRATE ON GETTING RID OF THE OWNERS PLEASE . What more do you want .

rid of the manager that is equally as much of a problem.

But if you all like i will forget the sh!te am watching am blame IT ALL on the owners and allow our manager (who has royally fecked up this season, a clean slate)

???  :no
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Postby 7_Kewell » Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:03 pm

people forget that rafa has spent a LOT of money since he's been here and it hasn't worked. He also cracks under the pressure, as we all saw with his cringeworthy 'rant' last season.

In short he has to go.
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Postby Igor Zidane » Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:17 pm

Ben Patrick wrote:
Igor Zidane wrote:
dawson99 wrote:People are still blamnig the owners?

yeah the owners are pish, we all know that, but Rafa has to shoulder blame as well. Its all well and good shouting out about saving the club, but with amanager who aint doing us any favours why would anyone wanna buy us? Its a vicouscircle (sp). Without a good manager we wont be brought, we wont get a good manager til we are brought...

i dunno the answer

Distraction , the club is most important . Do not get distracted by side issues anymore , The season is lost the manager is lost you've won your arguement . NOW CAN WE CONENTRATE ON GETTING RID OF THE OWNERS PLEASE . What more do you want .

rid of the manager that is equally as much of a problem.

But if you all like i will forget the sh!te am watching am blame IT ALL on the owners and allow our manager (who has royally fecked up this season, a clean slate)

???  :no

No it isn't cos the manager is gone anyway .Why waste your energy on a none arguement when you can direct it towards where it should be first and formost and that's the future of the club . You might aswell forget the :censored: you've been watching this year because if we keep these owners this season will be a veritable succuss compared to whats coming in the future . Like i say if your happy with that  fine , keep asking for the manager to be sacked who will be sacked or resign in the summer anyway . Meanwhile the owners carry on desrtoying the club .
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Postby Ben Patrick » Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:23 pm

Igor Zidane wrote:
Ben Patrick wrote:
Igor Zidane wrote:
dawson99 wrote:People are still blamnig the owners?

yeah the owners are pish, we all know that, but Rafa has to shoulder blame as well. Its all well and good shouting out about saving the club, but with amanager who aint doing us any favours why would anyone wanna buy us? Its a vicouscircle (sp). Without a good manager we wont be brought, we wont get a good manager til we are brought...

i dunno the answer

Distraction , the club is most important . Do not get distracted by side issues anymore , The season is lost the manager is lost you've won your arguement . NOW CAN WE CONENTRATE ON GETTING RID OF THE OWNERS PLEASE . What more do you want .

rid of the manager that is equally as much of a problem.

But if you all like i will forget the sh!te am watching am blame IT ALL on the owners and allow our manager (who has royally fecked up this season, a clean slate)

???  :no

No it isn't cos the manager is gone anyway .Why waste your energy on a none arguement when you can direct it towards where it should be first and formost and that's the future of the club . You might aswell forget the :censored: you've been watching this year because if we keep these owners this season will be a veritable succuss compared to whats coming in the future . Like i say if your happy with that  fine , keep asking for the manager to be sacked who will be sacked or resign in the summer anyway . Meanwhile the owners carry on desrtoying the club .

seriously ?

if your right and have info i dont, thats one down.

2 to go.
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Postby Igor Zidane » Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:39 pm

Ben Patrick wrote:
Igor Zidane wrote:
Ben Patrick wrote:
Igor Zidane wrote:
dawson99 wrote:People are still blamnig the owners?

yeah the owners are pish, we all know that, but Rafa has to shoulder blame as well. Its all well and good shouting out about saving the club, but with amanager who aint doing us any favours why would anyone wanna buy us? Its a vicouscircle (sp). Without a good manager we wont be brought, we wont get a good manager til we are brought...

i dunno the answer

Distraction , the club is most important . Do not get distracted by side issues anymore , The season is lost the manager is lost you've won your arguement . NOW CAN WE CONENTRATE ON GETTING RID OF THE OWNERS PLEASE . What more do you want .

rid of the manager that is equally as much of a problem.

But if you all like i will forget the sh!te am watching am blame IT ALL on the owners and allow our manager (who has royally fecked up this season, a clean slate)

???  :no

No it isn't cos the manager is gone anyway .Why waste your energy on a none arguement when you can direct it towards where it should be first and formost and that's the future of the club . You might aswell forget the :censored: you've been watching this year because if we keep these owners this season will be a veritable succuss compared to whats coming in the future . Like i say if your happy with that  fine , keep asking for the manager to be sacked who will be sacked or resign in the summer anyway . Meanwhile the owners carry on desrtoying the club .

seriously ?

if your right and have info i dont, thats one down.

2 to go.

Well alright then , maybe you could think of joining the union . Ben listen mate , Rafa will not be here come the summer , you and everyone else really need to start thinking about the club , the owners and the future now . The rafa debate is over along with the Lucas ,kuyt gerrard and whatever else debate that has been distracting everyones attention from the real issues.

Look at it this way , the people who wanted rafa sacked want a top class replacement is that fair .

My question is what top class manager can these owners afford and give a budget too to compete . The best scenario now is for these owners to go and someone else to come in who has a sound business plan that will benefit all . It may not happen overnight so the fans are going to have to have patience with the new owners and manager to get funds , build a stadium , overhaul the squad and compete with the others.
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Postby crazyhorse » Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:11 pm

kazza wrote:
bavlondon wrote:You only have to look at the teams he is linked with. Real, Juventus... We are lucky he has stuck around this far tbh. He cares about the club and the fans and he puts up with a lot. Even Shankly had his own faults, he is only human.

He is a workaholic, lives and breaths football. He is always at the club trying to improve it. He loves the club. He wants to be responsible for every part of the club. He is tactically superb. These are the qualities of great managers and if we lose him, he will go on to other top teams and do well. If there is a lack of effort or extreme self-centered ness, he should probably go, but there isn't and he should not.

Blaming solely the manager for this season and thinking that were he to leave everything will improve from then on is so simplistic that it borders idiotic.

I would disagree with the comment regarding tactics.

In Spain yes, in the CL yes to a certain extent, but his compatibility with English football is questionable.
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Postby mart » Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:24 pm

Igor Zidane wrote:The best scenario now is for these owners to go and someone else to come in who has a sound business plan that will benefit all . It may not happen overnight so the fans are going to have to have patience with the new owners and manager to get funds , build a stadium , overhaul the squad and compete with the others.

If we get new owners with a sound business plan it will most likely take a while before we can compete, but hopefully they are interested in whats good for the club in the long term.

It doesnt exactly look like we will get new owners any time soon though.
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Postby shawnk » Sun Mar 14, 2010 11:54 pm

I would blame the owners if we failed to challenge the top 1 spot in the EPL.
I'm blaming Rafa for turning Leivapool to a defensive side with poor result/performance and owners are to blame for offering Rafa the 5 years AND unable to correct their mistake (sacking him).
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Postby Ciggy » Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:03 am

With 8 games left in the league no its not time to ditch Rafa and bring in a caretaker for the remainder of the season, I think May the 9th 2010 will be Rafa's last game in charge and the club and rafa will part company.

Is Rafa to blame for this seasons failings absolutly, is he alone in that? no the players are also responsible for the terrible season we are having.

Rafa's mistakes this season all started when he sold Alonso, Hyypia & Arbeloa, and paying 17 million on Glen Johnson & 20 million for an injured player, a play maker that was supposed to replace Alonso that we have seen a handfull of times its now March he was supposed to be available last October.
Rumour has it we cannot afford to pay for him because his contract was appearance based I think Alberto will be on a plane back to Italy in the summer, only to return to England for CL games or for Italian friendlies with his national team.

IMO Rafa should have paid 20 million for a world class striker, given Torres's injury record. I think Glen Johnson is an excellent player but his defending leaves a lot to be desired, we would have been better keeping Arbeloa and playing Johnson on the right wing, a massive improvement on Dirk Kuyt.

Dirk Kuyt another mistake from Rafa playing an out of form player that is clearly knackerd from playing nearly every game this season, knackerd because he's all over the pitch, knackerd because he gives the ball away and runs around chasing it back, only to give it away again once he has it.
I like Dirk dont get me wrong, I wish all Liverpool players had his fight and determination, but as a footballer he isnt very good.

He does work hard for the team and he does run a lot but so did Linford Christie only he had pace, Dirk however does not, has no technical ability, he cannot dribble past players and when he gets the ball at his feet his feet seem like they are stuck in the mud cause he can't turn with the ball so another attack breaks down or he will get crowded out by other teams players and ends up losing posession.  Not to mention he has been out of form practically all season yet continues to be the first name on the team sheet and hardly ever gets subbed until the game is nearly over.

His flaws and errors might not be so glaringly obvious if he was played in his natural position as a striker and to be in that box at all times instead of playing midfielder, winger, left back, right back, defender because he is all over the pitch in every single game, he was bought as a striker but is not playing as one and that is not down to Dirk that is down to Rafa.

Another reason that we have been so poor this season is Alonso's replacement that fella masquerading as a Brazilian footballer in midfield 2nd name on the team sheet another Rafa favourite.  He was bought as an attacking midfielder was supposed to be Gerrards replacement but has been turned into a poor mans version of Mascherano doing the same job but not as good, conceeding silly free kicks, and doing a very good job immitating a crab passing it sideways, has no flair, doesnt score goals, and offers nothing attack wise, this fella is supposed to be our playmaker.

He should be no where near our starting 11 never mind being in it every single bloody game, a squad player at best and is not good enough for LFC who are out to win trophys we wont be winning anything in the near future if this fella becomes a permanent fixture for years to come.

Its not his fault he plays every game like Kuyt its Rafa's he picks the team he's picking these two players, when the team needs something different, they both need dropping Aqualini needs to play and Benayoun or Babel need to replace Kuyt on the right.

Insua is another problem, but the kid has something and has shown glimpses so I wont write him off just yet, plus we are hardly gifted with left backs and with Aurelio always injured there is no one else to take his place, we will just have to ride out the season and hope Insua doesnt get injured.

Another problem with Rafa is he swaps players like for like, he doesnt gamble on different players changing the game, he doesnt drag off players that are playing shite or drop them.  He doesnt wipe the floor with them at half time, they just dont fear him. His tactics are for us not to get beat first and formost and keep possession we are so predictable, so boring, we cant score and pass and move football has become a thing confined to the history books.

What is not Rafa's fault this season is senior players and our captain playing absolute dog shit, Stevie has only one thing on his mind and thats the WC and not to get injured before it, and he certainly doesnt want to be fighting for 4th place, or playing in the Europa league. And when we are not in the CL next season they have no one else to blame but themselves.  Injuries havent helped either but other teams cope so I cannot use that as an excuse mind you Chelsea dont have Ngog as backup for Drogba and that comes down to the owners for lack of investment.

I like Rafa and I dont enjoy saying any of this, I like him as a person even though many dont including half of our fans.
He has given us some great times and I thank him for that, and his down fall will be because of the likes of Kuyt, Lucas resulting in us not winning many games because they are in the team.

I have a whole lot to say about the owners and everyone knows I hate them, and they are part of the bigger picture and they will be the downfall of the club, if and when Rafa leaves and a new man is brought in they will still be here and things will get worst so long as they are in charge of running the club.
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Postby bigmick » Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:08 pm

That's a well balanced post Lynds with some excellent points. I would say on Lucas that if he were the sole holder he would look better than he does alongside Mash, and on Kuyt he would look better if Johnson was fit. In that sense you could argue both players are a bit unlucky to be having their inadequacies so graphically exposed. I don't agree on Aquilani as I think he's simply not good enough and I'm afraid another truly awful signing. The appearance segment of his transfer fee is miniscule when compared to the fifteen million Euro's we will have paid for him by the end of THIS SEASON, regardless of how many times he plays.

What we are seeing unfortunately is the complete and utter unravelment of an entire managerial philosophy. From the way the players are handled, through a religious sticking to a system which the squad is ill equipped to be strong in, through a reluctance to play a more expansive style, we are seeing a manager who is lost in a sea of confusion. The players can see it as well, hence their reluctance to bust a gut to save a ship which is well and truly on the way to the depths under the current captain.

It's odd to me that people are keen to tell us all now to see "the bigger picture". My contention is that under the current management structure, you could have all the billionaires you want but you will still have a football team which performs massively below its potential. The ire of the fans ought to be a two pronged attack IMHO. For sure cut the cancer of the owners out of the club, but lets not forget the chronic and disasterous mismanagement of the team and the resources he has had at his disposal from Benitez. Compare and contrast his performance this season with Ferguson, who lost Ronaldo and Tevez in the Summer and has like us had many big players injured for much of the season. One of the two managers developed a new way of playing which maximised the resources at his disposal, switching the position of his most influencial player. One of the two made a 60 odd million quid profit on transfers in the Summer. One of the two bought a bloke from Wigan for 18 million quid who despite a slow start now looks like he'll be a good buy, supported at every turn by his manager. One of the two broke even on transfers, and spent all the money he recouped (around 38 million quid). This fella bought a right full back who looks like a good buy to me, and a central midfielder who is a disasterous signing. He's tried to get the team to play in exactly the same way as he did previously, despite obviously not having the personel to make it work. He hasn't supported his new signings in anything like the same way. One of the clubs in question is still in the Champions League, has won the Carling Cup, and may well win the title for the fourth year in a row. The other team in question got knocked out of the group stages of the Champions League, knocked out of the FA Cup at home by Reading, knocked out of the early stages of the Carling Cup, and will probably finish outside of the top four in the Premiership.

Compare and contrast. Big picture? You decide.
Last edited by bigmick on Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Yossi_Benaloon » Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:28 pm

The majority of the problems at the moment should be put on the shoulders of the manager rather than the owners. Benitez is the one who spent the cash badly and is sticking with the same tactics despite the fact the players at Anfield at the moment are not capable of performing in that system. Aquilani looks a terrible signing and big money flushed down the toilet + overall Benitez is taking us backwards and not forwards. Now we are stuck in a situation where there is limited funds avalable, if we fail to get into the Champions League then high calibre players will not come and we could be forced to sell rather than buy. The mistake the owners have made is giving the boss a big fat new long-term contract.
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Postby Igor Zidane » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:04 pm

bigmick wrote:That's a well balanced post Lynds with some excellent points. I would say on Lucas that if he were the sole holder he would look better than he does alongside Mash, and on Kuyt he would look better if Johnson was fit. In that sense you could argue both players are a bit unlucky to be having their inadequacies so graphically exposed. I don't agree on Aquilani as I think he's simply not good enough and I'm afraid another truly awful signing. The appearance segment of his transfer fee is miniscule when compared to the fifteen million Euro's we will have paid for him by the end of THIS SEASON, regardless of how many times he plays.

What we are seeing unfortunately is the complete and utter unravelment of an entire managerial philosophy. From the way the players are handled, through a religious sticking to a system which the squad is ill equipped to be strong in, through a reluctance to play a more expansive style, we are seeing a manager who is lost in a sea of confusion. The players can see it as well, hence their reluctance to bust a gut to save a ship which is well and truly on the way to the depths under the current captain.

It's odd to me that people are keen to tell us all now to see "the bigger picture". My contention is that under the current management structure, you could have all the billionaires you want but you will still have a football team which performs massively below its potential. The ire of the fans ought to be a two pronged attack IMHO. For sure cut the cancer of the owners out of the club, but lets not forget the chronic and disasterous mismanagement of the team and the resources he has had at his disposal from Benitez. Compare and contrast his performance this season with Ferguson, who lost Ronaldo and Tevez in the Summer and has like us had many big players injured for much of the season. One of the two managers developed a new way of playing which maximised the resources at his disposal, switching the position of his most influencial player. One of the two made a 60 odd million quid profit on transfers in the Summer. One of the two bought a bloke from Wigan for 18 million quid who despite a slow start now looks like he'll be a good buy, supported at every turn by his manager. One of the two broke even on transfers, and spent all the money he recouped (around 38 million quid). This fella bought a right full back who looks like a good buy to me, and a central midfielder who is a disasterous signing. He's tried to get the team to play in exactly the same way as he did previously, despite obviously not having the personel to make it work. He hasn't supported his new signings in anything like the same way. One of the clubs in question is still in the Champions League, has won the Carling Cup, and may well win the title for the fourth year in a row. The other team in question got knocked out of the group stages of the Champions League, knocked out of the FA Cup at home by Reading, knocked out of the early stages of the Carling Cup, and will probably finish outside of the top four in the Premiership.

Compare and contrast. Big picture? You decide.

Mick your still making a none arguement . Rafa is gone . End off . Now your can argue all you like about how we got here or who's fault it is ,but it is irrelevent mate . The Benetez arguement is dead in the water ,it's over , you got your wish . Now lets get everyones wish and get rid of the owners.
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Postby RED BEERGOGGLES » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:14 pm

bigmick wrote:What we are seeing unfortunately is the complete and utter unravelment of an entire managerial philosophy. From the way the players are handled, through a religious sticking to a system which the squad is ill equipped to be strong in, through a reluctance to play a more expansive style, we are seeing a manager who is lost in a sea of confusion. The players can see it as well, hence their reluctance to bust a gut to save a ship which is well and truly on the way to the depths under the current captain.

It's odd to me that people are keen to tell us all now to see "the bigger picture". My contention is that under the current management structure, you could have all the billionaires you want but you will still have a football team which performs massively below its potential. The ire of the fans ought to be a two pronged attack IMHO. For sure cut the cancer of the owners out of the club, but lets not forget the chronic and disasterous mismanagement of the team and the resources he has had at his disposal from Benitez. Compare and contrast his performance this season with Ferguson, who lost Ronaldo and Tevez in the Summer and has like us had many big players injured for much of the season. One of the two managers developed a new way of playing which maximised the resources at his disposal, switching the position of his most influencial player. One of the two made a 60 odd million quid profit on transfers in the Summer. One of the two bought a bloke from Wigan for 18 million quid who despite a slow start now looks like he'll be a good buy, supported at every turn by his manager. One of the two broke even on transfers, and spent all the money he recouped (around 38 million quid). This fella bought a right full back who looks like a good buy to me, and a central midfielder who is a disasterous signing. He's tried to get the team to play in exactly the same way as he did previously, despite obviously not having the personel to make it work. He hasn't supported his new signings in anything like the same way. One of the clubs in question is still in the Champions League, has won the Carling Cup, and may well win the title for the fourth year in a row. The other team in question got knocked out of the group stages of the Champions League, knocked out of the FA Cup at home by Reading, knocked out of the early stages of the Carling Cup, and will probably finish outside of the top four in the Premiership.

Compare and contrast. Big picture? You decide.

I would disagree , Last Season we believed Rafa would be the man to take us forward and after signing his new contract I and many other fans considered this to be the proof that Rafa had received assurances from the owners that he would be allowed to compete financially in the transfer market ,but what we seen and are continuing to see is  the eventual  dismantling of our assets completely to the detriment of the club ,then people talk about Johnson being talented surely they cant mean in a defensive capacity because the Lad has been a complete failure in that respect and then we have the biggest selling point for the dissenters Lucas ,well let me tell you about this kid ,Earlier in the season we had Mascherano throwing his toys out the pram and then we had Gerrard playing with complete disinterest given his spat with Benitez over him vetoing his operation in order to enhance his fitness for the world cup ,not to mention the complete and utter capitulation of the defence and through all this Lucas put in a shift while hurdling over the infeasible amount of dummies on the pitch ok he is limited but not in heart mate ,because we would be floundering in mid table obscurity if we had  waited for Gerrard to make a tackle of any description  ???

I am not happy with our performances on the pitch like many other fans ,but to suggest the subsequent removal of Benitez is a on a par with the owners being ousted shows an ignorance I haven't ciphered from your posts before ,the owners are the route to all our problems they have systematically derailed and undermined this club both in a financial sense and in a sense of complete indifference ,they have single handedly brought this great club to its knees

I would also like to take this occasion to explain the term Bigger picture ,its simply metaphorically speaking viewing the whole travesty in its despairing entirety and not the some what myopic view associated with tunnel vision ,and I apologize if my prose seems some what acute but I am completely weary of the dirge being written about the supposedly marked solution to our problems ,and I will make this my last post for a while my sanity simply demands it  :(
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