Is it time for the unthinkable? - Caretaker manager time?

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby Scottbot » Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:23 am

john craig wrote:So no, for me bringing in a caretaker manager won't happen, whether it would affect results on the pitch or not.

what he said
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Postby kazza » Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:07 am

bigmick wrote:I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up in light of our obvious demise, so I thought I'd throw it into the mix.

I don't think there's much doubt to anyone who looks at our current situation without desperately trying to prove they were right all along, or how loyal and "real" they are, that the current manager is a busted flush. He is dead in the water in terms of successfully managing the football club, and although many will call the players a "disgrace" it is clear they have decided not to play for him anymore. Once that happens, it is only time which is a variable when it comes to a manager leaving. Now I say this fully aware that my first thread in a couple of months will stir up some controversy. There'll be those who say they "still believe" (though I'm not sure what in), they'll say "it's the owners" (innit), "fecking Gerrard/Parry/the refs/Moores" etc etc etc etc and delete as appropriate, but they always say that and I long since stopped taking any of them seriously to be totally honest.  There'll be those who's line of reasoning doesn't bother with any of that, they'll just call me a c... instead as it's quicker and a card free way of getting their point accross.

I'm going to disregard all of that though, I'm going to make the assumption that the manager will be gone at the end of the season (almost certainly to Madrid) simply because it suits him and us down to a tee. It'll save us having to pay an exorbitant severence fee for the ridiculous contract he was awarded, it'll save us having to stump up God knows how much for the legions of his backroom buddies, and it'll mean we can get a manager in who at least has a shot at getting the players to play to somewhere near their potential. It may well be that winning the league anytime soon is impossible anyway, but surely the club can employ someone who can make a better fist of things than the current manager. It suits Rafa this Madrid thing too, because he'll have a chance to rebuild his shattered reputation. Quite what madrid will make of him remains to be seen, but that's for them to worry about, we owe them a dodgy deal or two anyway.

So the question is, do we wait till the end of the season or do we come to an arrangement beforehand and go with Dalglish as caretaker manager? Do people think we would be likely to get more points before the end of the season with Dalglish as manager or less? Is it just possible that a surge of belief which Dalglish would bring could be enough to re-ignite our push for Champions League football next season?


Like I say, he's surely gone anyway so do we wait or do we do the deed now?

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Postby Sir Roger » Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:12 am

NANNY RED wrote:Ill tell you what this is a good assesment by Rory here . taken the words out of me mouth practicaly :laugh:

Sacking Rafael Benitez is just fiddling while Liverpool burn

By Rory Smith Football Last updated: March 12th, 2010



As Liverpool’s team plane touched down in Lille on Wednesday night, a dozen or so BlackBerries buzzed in the cheap seats. Email after email came through from Liverpool supporters with the foresight to copy journalists in on a missive directed at the Government-owned Royal Bank of Scotland, which decides in July whether to offer the club’s owners, Tom Hicks and George Gillett, a refinancing deal on Liverpool’s £237 million debt. A little over 36 hours later, The Daily Telegraph’s received tally stands at about 150 or so.

Kudos, of course, to the supporters who mobilised the power of an internet forum and Facebook to launch an organic campaign, and kudos to those who took the time to take part. But look at that figure. 150 emails. Of all the thousands who scour the internet forums and all the millions of Liverpool fans around the world. 150 emails. 150 people with five minutes to spare for the club they love.

Compare and contrast that to the ever-growing numbers – boosted after defeat in Lille, as the emails kept trickling through – adamant that Rafael Benitez must be sacked, that his increasingly likely failure to lead Liverpool back into the Champions League is a capital offence, that a new manager – Jose Mourinho, Fabio Capello, whoever – is the answer to their problems and prayers. Such thinking is deluded, and dangerous. The vast majority of Liverpool’s supporters are concerned with fiddling while their club burns.

There is a danger, with Liverpool, that suggesting there are greater problems than the Spaniard’s cautious tactics is seen as absolution of his sins. This, though, is not an apologia for Benitez. He, and his team, have had a poor season. They have lost 15 times. That is not good enough. Many of his players, his buys, are not good enough, and those that are good enough – Pepe Reina aside – are not playing well enough. That is, in part, his responsibility, and his failing.

Benitez, like all managers, will find his position reviewed at the end of the season. If Liverpool, for the first time in his spell at Anfield, are not in the Champions League, he may find his tenure drawn to a close. Posterity will prove, though, that the most significant denouement to their campaign is not whether the axe falls on Benitez or not, but who is wielding it.

If it is still Hicks and Gillett, removing Benitez will do little. His successor will find himself weighed down by the albatross of that debt, forced to sell to buy, handed just a percentage of what he raises, unable to overhaul a squad at the limit of its ability and patience, hamstrung by owners with neither the funds nor the inclination to deliver on Hicks’s promise of a “big” summer in the transfer market. True, he may play better football, or get a better press by virtue of being British, but only a miracle-worker could satisfy the Kop’s demands in such circumstances.

Under Hicks and Gillett, without outside investment, without some sort of change in the boardroom, without the funds to build a new stadium and the impetus to compete, Liverpool will slide into mediocrity, whether Benitez, Rinus Michels or Tele Santana is manager.

It may be Liverpool’s pursuit of fourth place which generates the headlines and the fury, which is seen as crucial to the club’s future, but Liverpool could, just, absorb the blow of missing out on the Champions League both in terms of finances and prestige. Missing out on investment, or on new owners? Sadly not. The battle that must be won, that they cannot afford to lose, is off the pitch. And only 150 people see it.


NICE ONE RORY LAD .

Sadly this is the state we find ourselves in
Im filled with lots of "if only"s
If only Rafa wasnt so Fu*king stubborn and arrogant
If only the players, especially the senior ones took no Fu*king notice to him and played to their potential
If only someone was there to tell him to stop being obsessed with his formation and let some creativity come through
If only we had a board who would challenge the yanks
etc etc
This could all be sorted easily by a few minor adjustments
Unfortunately there is neither the will or the inclination for these things to happen.
This is the first time in I dont know how long (possibly ever) that Ive look forward to the end of the season more than to the beginning.
Roll on June...
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Postby Ciggy » Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:15 am

RAFA OUT !!!! BIG ECK IN !!!!!!!  :buttrock   :no

Liverpool are monitoring Alex McLeish’s contract talks at Birmingham closely as Rafa Benitez continues to struggle.

Reds manager Benitez, 49, penned a lucrative new deal a year ago, committing him to the club until 2014.

But Liverpool face a battle to finish in the top four of the Premier League and lost the first leg of their last 16 Europa League tie at Lille 1-0 on Thursday.

Benitez still has the support of the club’s under-fire American owners Tom Hicks and George Gillett.

But Brum boss Big ’Eck is in their contingency plans should Benitez quit or the season end in complete disaster.

The former Scotland and Rangers chief has guided Brum to eighth on a modest budget which has impressed the Anfield hierarchy.

He is in negotiations with new owner Carson Yeung and has a buy-out clause of just £1million in his contract, which expires in 18 months.
There is no-one anywhere in the world at any stage who is any bigger or any better than this football club.

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REST IN PEACE PHIL, YOU WILL NEVER BE FORGOTTEN.
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Postby Ben Patrick » Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:18 am

NANNY RED wrote:Ill tell you what this is a good assesment by Rory here . taken the words out of me mouth practicaly :laugh:

Sacking Rafael Benitez is just fiddling while Liverpool burn

By Rory Smith Football Last updated: March 12th, 2010



As Liverpool’s team plane touched down in Lille on Wednesday night, a dozen or so BlackBerries buzzed in the cheap seats. Email after email came through from Liverpool supporters with the foresight to copy journalists in on a missive directed at the Government-owned Royal Bank of Scotland, which decides in July whether to offer the club’s owners, Tom Hicks and George Gillett, a refinancing deal on Liverpool’s £237 million debt. A little over 36 hours later, The Daily Telegraph’s received tally stands at about 150 or so.

Kudos, of course, to the supporters who mobilised the power of an internet forum and Facebook to launch an organic campaign, and kudos to those who took the time to take part. But look at that figure. 150 emails. Of all the thousands who scour the internet forums and all the millions of Liverpool fans around the world. 150 emails. 150 people with five minutes to spare for the club they love.

Compare and contrast that to the ever-growing numbers – boosted after defeat in Lille, as the emails kept trickling through – adamant that Rafael Benitez must be sacked, that his increasingly likely failure to lead Liverpool back into the Champions League is a capital offence, that a new manager – Jose Mourinho, Fabio Capello, whoever – is the answer to their problems and prayers. Such thinking is deluded, and dangerous. The vast majority of Liverpool’s supporters are concerned with fiddling while their club burns.

There is a danger, with Liverpool, that suggesting there are greater problems than the Spaniard’s cautious tactics is seen as absolution of his sins. This, though, is not an apologia for Benitez. He, and his team, have had a poor season. They have lost 15 times. That is not good enough. Many of his players, his buys, are not good enough, and those that are good enough – Pepe Reina aside – are not playing well enough. That is, in part, his responsibility, and his failing.

Benitez, like all managers, will find his position reviewed at the end of the season. If Liverpool, for the first time in his spell at Anfield, are not in the Champions League, he may find his tenure drawn to a close. Posterity will prove, though, that the most significant denouement to their campaign is not whether the axe falls on Benitez or not, but who is wielding it.

If it is still Hicks and Gillett, removing Benitez will do little. His successor will find himself weighed down by the albatross of that debt, forced to sell to buy, handed just a percentage of what he raises, unable to overhaul a squad at the limit of its ability and patience, hamstrung by owners with neither the funds nor the inclination to deliver on Hicks’s promise of a “big” summer in the transfer market. True, he may play better football, or get a better press by virtue of being British, but only a miracle-worker could satisfy the Kop’s demands in such circumstances.

Under Hicks and Gillett, without outside investment, without some sort of change in the boardroom, without the funds to build a new stadium and the impetus to compete, Liverpool will slide into mediocrity, whether Benitez, Rinus Michels or Tele Santana is manager.

It may be Liverpool’s pursuit of fourth place which generates the headlines and the fury, which is seen as crucial to the club’s future, but Liverpool could, just, absorb the blow of missing out on the Champions League both in terms of finances and prestige. Missing out on investment, or on new owners? Sadly not. The battle that must be won, that they cannot afford to lose, is off the pitch. And only 150 people see it.


NICE ONE RORY LAD .

This is the type of article that gets on my nerves tbh.

Are we at this moment in time stuck with these owners and this debt ?
The answer is yes.

Is Rafa Benitez getting the best out of the players at his disposal ?

the answer is no.

To me the solution lies in getting somebody in that can motivate players and work within whatever budget there is.

Cos like it or not we are stuck with this sh!t for the foreseeable future.
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Postby Sir Roger » Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:37 am

Ciggy wrote:RAFA OUT !!!! BIG ECK IN !!!!!!!  :buttrock   :no

Liverpool are monitoring Alex McLeish’s contract talks at Birmingham closely as Rafa Benitez continues to struggle.

Reds manager Benitez, 49, penned a lucrative new deal a year ago, committing him to the club until 2014.

But Liverpool face a battle to finish in the top four of the Premier League and lost the first leg of their last 16 Europa League tie at Lille 1-0 on Thursday.

Benitez still has the support of the club’s under-fire American owners Tom Hicks and George Gillett.

But Brum boss Big ’Eck is in their contingency plans should Benitez quit or the season end in complete disaster.

The former Scotland and Rangers chief has guided Brum to eighth on a modest budget which has impressed the Anfield hierarchy.

He is in negotiations with new owner Carson Yeung and has a buy-out clause of just £1million in his contract, which expires in 18 months.

Megsons free isnt he?
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Postby J*o*n*D*o*e » Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:50 am

dont be daft mate didnt you know Mourinho is nailed on for the job, the yanks are going to give him millions to spend aswell, all our problems will be solved
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Postby Ciggy » Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:59 am

J*o*n*D*o*e wrote:dont be daft mate didnt you know Mourinho is nailed on for the job, the yanks are going to give him millions to spend aswell, all our problems will be solved

Thats just it though, some of our fans are under the impression that Mourhino, Hiddink, Gardiolla or someone great manager will be coming in if Rafa goes.

But the reality is it will be someone like Big Eck, Woy Hodgeson standard !!!!
There is no-one anywhere in the world at any stage who is any bigger or any better than this football club.

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REST IN PEACE PHIL, YOU WILL NEVER BE FORGOTTEN.
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Postby bigmick » Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:12 pm

I actually don't think it would be someone of Magleish or Hodgsons "standard", although I do think even if it were they would both do a better job than Benitez. Birmingham need to win their game in hand to move within two points of us in the league. They have a first team which cost a similar amount of money to Aquilani, and have been excellently managed all season. Fulham may ultimately perish at the last 16 stage of the Europa Cup (mind you so might we) but by any measure, Hodson has done a marvellous job.

I've never been one who holds the view that someone necessarily has to have an exotic sounding name in order to be successful myself in any case. It's about ability, and rather than worrying too much about all that we may as well consider only managers who would have been capable this season of bettering a record of 15 defeats. My guess is that the bar isn't exactly sky high and that many of the names which are thrown up as a p!ss take could do a comparable job with the total debacle which has been this season.

Ultimately, the current manager isn't up to the job it really is as simple as that. That doesn't mean we shouldn't get rid of the owners, or that we haven't been a bit unlucky with injuries, but none of that obscures the glaringly obvious. Any new manager may also not be up to it, but as the current one clearly isn't I am unconcerned and unworried about making the change, which we surely will at the end of the season.

My guess is that we will get a well known manager who will get everyone except those who are gutted that they weren't able to claim they were right all along excited. Ultimately, it is almost beyond comprehension that he could do worse than the travesty of football we have endured this time around.
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Postby teamleader1 » Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:14 pm

Unless the yanks have found an outright buyer or are willing to sell the controlling share, its debatable that they would sack Rafa.
Rafa wont walk because in his mind he is doing a great job and anything that's not right is someone else's fault.
If R/M want him they will play the waiting game over the compo (and win it) this will drag on into the summer leaving us precious little time to get a replacement in that can offload the garbage and bring in much needed new blood.

For me our only real option is for the board to grow some balls and sack him now, put Kenny in as caretaker and advertise the post.
This is the only option that gives us the vital breathing space to approach prospective candidates and put some kind of purchasing plan into place that makes it attractive.
Its also the only option of us grabbing 4th spot, because lets not kid ourselves we are not going to do it under Rafa.
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Postby bigmick » Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:17 pm

If Rafa stays another season it wouold be absolutely disasterous for the club IMHO. We may this time next season be in a whole pile of trouble, the like of which makes this campaign look like a glittering success. Once the players stop turning up for the manager it's all over, they have and it is.

It is inconcieveable that the club could continue with Rafa  for another season. The owners would be committing a sin bigger than all the others if they alklowed that to happen.
Last edited by bigmick on Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Redman in wales » Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:34 pm

NANNY RED wrote:Ill tell you what this is a good assesment by Rory here . taken the words out of me mouth practicaly :laugh:

Sacking Rafael Benitez is just fiddling while Liverpool burn

By Rory Smith Football Last updated: March 12th, 2010



As Liverpool’s team plane touched down in Lille on Wednesday night, a dozen or so BlackBerries buzzed in the cheap seats. Email after email came through from Liverpool supporters with the foresight to copy journalists in on a missive directed at the Government-owned Royal Bank of Scotland, which decides in July whether to offer the club’s owners, Tom Hicks and George Gillett, a refinancing deal on Liverpool’s £237 million debt. A little over 36 hours later, The Daily Telegraph’s received tally stands at about 150 or so.

Kudos, of course, to the supporters who mobilised the power of an internet forum and Facebook to launch an organic campaign, and kudos to those who took the time to take part. But look at that figure. 150 emails. Of all the thousands who scour the internet forums and all the millions of Liverpool fans around the world. 150 emails. 150 people with five minutes to spare for the club they love.

Compare and contrast that to the ever-growing numbers – boosted after defeat in Lille, as the emails kept trickling through – adamant that Rafael Benitez must be sacked, that his increasingly likely failure to lead Liverpool back into the Champions League is a capital offence, that a new manager – Jose Mourinho, Fabio Capello, whoever – is the answer to their problems and prayers. Such thinking is deluded, and dangerous. The vast majority of Liverpool’s supporters are concerned with fiddling while their club burns.

There is a danger, with Liverpool, that suggesting there are greater problems than the Spaniard’s cautious tactics is seen as absolution of his sins. This, though, is not an apologia for Benitez. He, and his team, have had a poor season. They have lost 15 times. That is not good enough. Many of his players, his buys, are not good enough, and those that are good enough – Pepe Reina aside – are not playing well enough. That is, in part, his responsibility, and his failing.

Benitez, like all managers, will find his position reviewed at the end of the season. If Liverpool, for the first time in his spell at Anfield, are not in the Champions League, he may find his tenure drawn to a close. Posterity will prove, though, that the most significant denouement to their campaign is not whether the axe falls on Benitez or not, but who is wielding it.

If it is still Hicks and Gillett, removing Benitez will do little. His successor will find himself weighed down by the albatross of that debt, forced to sell to buy, handed just a percentage of what he raises, unable to overhaul a squad at the limit of its ability and patience, hamstrung by owners with neither the funds nor the inclination to deliver on Hicks’s promise of a “big” summer in the transfer market. True, he may play better football, or get a better press by virtue of being British, but only a miracle-worker could satisfy the Kop’s demands in such circumstances.

Under Hicks and Gillett, without outside investment, without some sort of change in the boardroom, without the funds to build a new stadium and the impetus to compete, Liverpool will slide into mediocrity, whether Benitez, Rinus Michels or Tele Santana is manager.

It may be Liverpool’s pursuit of fourth place which generates the headlines and the fury, which is seen as crucial to the club’s future, but Liverpool could, just, absorb the blow of missing out on the Champions League both in terms of finances and prestige. Missing out on investment, or on new owners? Sadly not. The battle that must be won, that they cannot afford to lose, is off the pitch. And only 150 people see it.


NICE ONE RORY LAD .

absolute tripe.   :no

"only 150 people see it"   ???  - er... no. since when was it broadcast on all the internet forums so more people could have done it? - no one knew about it!!!

more like whoever orcastrated it couldn't organise a p.iss up in a brewary. If i wanted to do something like that I'd have topic on every single forum (newkit, rawk, liverpool way, the rattle, this is anfield,  etc etc) letting people know about the plan to do that. There was nowt on this website about it.


--

that's that bit done, now onto the new manager bit...


money in from new sources or money in from player sales doesn't matter - its what you do with that money, and rafa has done poorly with it. Then its man management and tactics and this season rafa has done poorly with them too.

Another manager may have to work under the same principles and constraints that Rafa has to currently work under, but surely not every manager is as stubborn as Rafa?

By this I mean:

- the consistant playing of Mash and lucas together in centre midfield (we ALL know that it doesnt work)

- the consisant playing of kuyt throughout is poor patches of form

- the consistant strange substitutions where reira/babel/benyoun will ALWAYS be subsituted first before Kuyt regardless of how they are playing on the pitch and who is carrying a greater goal threat and causing them more problems

- the constant ommission of Aquilani

there are more examples and instances, but I dont like rafa bashing (yes, I know I've just done a fair bit of it above!) I am truely greatful for all that he's done for this club, I love him, I do. I just dont think he is whats best for Liverpool football club anymore.
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Postby Ben Patrick » Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:39 pm

bigmick wrote:I actually don't think it would be someone of Magleish or Hodgsons "standard", although I do think even if it were they would both do a better job than Benitez. Birmingham need to win their game in hand to move within two points of us in the league. They have a first team which cost a similar amount of money to Aquilani, and have been excellently managed all season. Fulham may ultimately perish at the last 16 stage of the Europa Cup (mind you so might we) but by any measure, Hodson has done a marvellous job.

I've never been one who holds the view that someone necessarily has to have an exotic sounding name in order to be successful myself in any case. It's about ability, and rather than worrying too much about all that we may as well consider only managers who would have been capable this season of bettering a record of 15 defeats. My guess is that the bar isn't exactly sky high and that many of the names which are thrown up as a p!ss take could do a comparable job with the total debacle which has been this season.

Ultimately, the current manager isn't up to the job it really is as simple as that. That doesn't mean we shouldn't get rid of the owners, or that we haven't been a bit unlucky with injuries, but none of that obscures the glaringly obvious. Any new manager may also not be up to it, but as the current one clearly isn't I am unconcerned and unworried about making the change, which we surely will at the end of the season.

My guess is that we will get a well known manager who will get everyone except those who are gutted that they weren't able to claim they were right all along excited. Ultimately, it is almost beyond comprehension that he could do worse than the travesty of football we have endured this time around.

Ex-fookin-zactly  :nod
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Postby Sabre » Sat Mar 13, 2010 1:50 pm

Benitez, like all managers, will find his position reviewed at the end of the season. If Liverpool, for the first time in his spell at Anfield, are not in the Champions League, he may find his tenure drawn to a close. Posterity will prove, though, that the most significant denouement to their campaign is not whether the axe falls on Benitez or not, but who is wielding it.

If it is still Hicks and Gillett, removing Benitez will do little. His successor will find himself weighed down by the albatross of that debt, forced to sell to buy, handed just a percentage of what he raises, unable to overhaul a squad at the limit of its ability and patience, hamstrung by owners with neither the funds nor the inclination to deliver on Hicks’s promise of a “big” summer in the transfer market. True, he may play better football, or get a better press by virtue of being British, but only a miracle-worker could satisfy the Kop’s demands in such circumstances.

Under Hicks and Gillett, without outside investment, without some sort of change in the boardroom, without the funds to build a new stadium and the impetus to compete, Liverpool will slide into mediocrity, whether Benitez, Rinus Michels or Tele Santana is manager.


I agree this bit of that Rory lad.

I would like to disagree, but with the current owners I cannot be very optimist.
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Postby NANNY RED » Sat Mar 13, 2010 2:18 pm

bigmick wrote:I actually don't think it would be someone of Magleish or Hodgsons "standard", although I do think even if it were they would both do a better job than Benitez. Birmingham need to win their game in hand to move within two points of us in the league. They have a first team which cost a similar amount of money to Aquilani, and have been excellently managed all season. Fulham may ultimately perish at the last 16 stage of the Europa Cup (mind you so might we) but by any measure, Hodson has done a marvellous job.

I've never been one who holds the view that someone necessarily has to have an exotic sounding name in order to be successful myself in any case. It's about ability, and rather than worrying too much about all that we may as well consider only managers who would have been capable this season of bettering a record of 15 defeats. My guess is that the bar isn't exactly sky high and that many of the names which are thrown up as a p!ss take could do a comparable job with the total debacle which has been this season.

Ultimately, the current manager isn't up to the job it really is as simple as that. That doesn't mean we shouldn't get rid of the owners, or that we haven't been a bit unlucky with injuries, but none of that obscures the glaringly obvious. Any new manager may also not be up to it, but as the current one clearly isn't I am unconcerned and unworried about making the change, which we surely will at the end of the season.

My guess is that we will get a well known manager who will get everyone except those who are gutted that they weren't able to claim they were right all along excited. Ultimately, it is almost beyond comprehension that he could do worse than the travesty of football we have endured this time around.

Mick its not about being proved right or gutted , its about what i or anyone else believes in, I have have stood  by Rafa and i still in my heart believe he will turn things around ,ok not this season but if he is still he next season he will have my support , If he goes of course i will be gutted but i will expect a top top world class manager to replace him, No McCleish or Curbishly or Hodgson, to me that is a back ward step, If we do get a new manager ( apart from Jose ) who as you say is well known he will have my support ,simple , As i said its not about being proved right
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