Liverpool FC Forum

[115-1073096938]

Hmm, who else comes into that category? Let me see, I'll name two managers who focused less on tactics and more on players and motivating them:

Alex Ferguson
Shanks

boll##ks... theres more to being a manager than motivating. I won't name them all i will just give u food for thought

Attracting good and young players. (Kewell from under United and Arsenals noses )
Developing talent. (Owen, Gerrard, Murphy, Hyypia, Carragher)
Reconising good/great players. (Kewell, Hyypia, Hamann, Kirkland, think about the current french national team... alot of those kids Henry, Vieira, Zidane, Gallas)
Tactical awareness (cup treble says all that needs to be said)
long term vision (look at the france national team and the average age of our squad... speaks for itself)

theres a few Houllier WIPES THE FLOOR with O'Neil. You are deluding yourself if you think he'll ever be anything special, Ferguson is one of the greatest managers ever and O'Neil isn't even fit to be mentioned in the same breath to be honest. are you irish by any chance?

stu_le_red is a Houllier fanatic.To blame injuries this season for our position in the league and our lack of ideas on the field is an insult to our big squad that GH has assembled.Only Chelsea have a bigger 1st team squad.On stu and GH's calculations we only have 11 players and the rest of the squad are not good enough,but they are players GH bought so his credibility at spotting talent or nuturing it must come into great doubt.To claim a victory over Yeovil as "magnificent" is incredible and one can only assume that GH and stu have low standards for the beautiful game and already they have been achieved,even if it was 3 years ago.I posted back in April how lucky that treble was and yet GH failed to address the weaknesses in that team but continued on his defence at all costs policy.We gradually fell further and further,behind yet lady luck always managed to paper over the cracks for Houllier.Well the sands of time are fast running out and to claim we are 1 or 2 players away from Arsenal or Manu doesn't wash.Owen will be off at the end of the season,that is for sure,even if we manage to scramble to the top of the premier league division 2 and qualify for the champions league.St.Michael's body language this season tells a 1000 stories;he does not want to play for monsieur Houllier,and I'm sure there are other players who feel the same way

Right i am not a Houllier fanatic i am an LFC fanatic. I am very open and even minded and know how to judge and what to judge. You clearly haven't read the fact i have stated he puzzles me with team selections at times and that i also said he has made mistakes in the transfer market.

To blame injuries is a pretty damn good excuse like i've said considering its been Dudek, Kirkland, Finnan, Carragher, Henchoz, Riise, Murphy, Hamann, Diao, Gerrard, Kewell, Cheyrou, Owen and Baros. Arsenal and United wouldn't be where they are if they'd had the same injury lists... i'm not saying we're as good as them squad wise but they wouldn't be as far ahead i will garentee it. When you only have people like Biscan to cover and you are putting out a midfield with a misfit forward and Smicer in the side then you aren't going to win every game.... get over it.

AGAIN!!! i say we have only twice had Hamann, Gerrard and Kewell in the same side... its never once been with Owen, Baros, Carragher, Finnan etc who are all long term injuries. THESE ARE MAJOR PLAYERS and we aren't chelsea or United so we can't just buy someone to replace this lot... it aint gonna happen.... PERSPECTIVE.

The way you say i have low standards is damn right f##kin insulting you arrogant.... (i'll stop there) Who the f##k do you think you are? i'm not being funny but f##kin grow up. My standards are f##kin realistic and sensible and i don't need...... very nice internet blokes.... who've probably never spent a penny on the club in his life telling me otherwise... i go home, away, europe home and away, cup finals, the lot so i know what the team is capable of and i can see that at full strength we aren't far off the big three... if we are off them at all. don't ever question my passion pride or standards for this club coz it simply won't wash and will only succeed in seriously offending me. Your assessment of the treble being luck... You make your own luck... end of story... don't believe in luck at all... its all boll##ks... Man United don't get there results by luck... they didn't win the europian cup because they were lucky.... its about being the best.. doing whats right and making your own fortune... stan collymore's goal against blackburn... lucky? if he doesn't shoot he doesn't score... im a realist... nothing else. fate maybe? luck? no chance.

Also your point about us being defensive. Thats balls also... we should have stayed defensive then we wouldn't need a centre half to replace Henchoz. Now because we push higher up the pitch we need a player with pace at the back. The side that got 80 points in the league wasn't lucky either... imagine the same team playing the same way... but Kewell on the wing instead of Smicer... thats 10 points if u ask me.

and IF Owen doesn't want to play for us... he can go. We'll cope... we always have and always will.

[chong29]

Try 2 think as a manager then u wont have so many rubbish talks.
the main question is why the players get  injured  quite easily?
the training method ? the player physical condition? the way they played? Bad luck ?
We need to find out the main problem & solved it quickly.   

[coops]

stu_the_red, it's a fact Alex Ferguson and Shanks were NOT tactical managers, their skill lay/lies in their ability to spot talent, and to drum up passion and belief in that talent.

I recall you slated O'Neill for having 'exceptional motivating skills', hence why I used ferguson and Shanks as examples some of the best managers are not tactical focused.

Your response is confusing. I really don't understand your points.

I really think you have lost the plot stu_the_red. Your comments indicate that strongly.

[Bring Dalglish back]

stu_the_red, in reply to your comment in the first post in this thread about 'Liverpool being on a par with Man Utd when we have our first XI' available, I disagree. The difference between us and Manchester United largely stems from the fact that the Mancunians have supply to their forwards and potential goalscorers all over the field, whereas Liverpool don't. The question of who plays on our wings for instance, seems to be causing predicements for Houllier this season - he doesn't know where to play Kewell, and Scmicer constantly blows hot and cold. In comparison, Man Utd have Giggs firing on all cylinders every week and Ronaldo and Solskjaer to choose from to also play on the wings, who have assisted Van Nistelrooy on dozens of occassions.

[mistyred]

stu_the_red.Listen to yourself! Bla Bla Bla Bla,vallied point....

[115-1073096938]

stu_the_red, it's a fact Alex Ferguson and Shanks were NOT tactical managers, their skill lay/lies in their ability to spot talent, and to drum up passion and belief in that talent.

I recall you slated O'Neill for having 'exceptional motivating skills', hence why I used ferguson and Shanks as examples some of the best managers are not tactical focused.

Your response is confusing. I really don't understand your points.

Ferguson is tactically very good. Not superb, not the best, but very very good.

He has other great managerial skills. O'Neil on the other hand doesn't. He's a great motivator and gets the very best out of average players. That it... nothing more. He won two league cups with Leciester which is a great acheivment and hats off to the man for acheiving that. But i'd be gutted with myself if i couldn't win the league in scotland. Everyone knows its a 2 team league... beat rangers win the title. That simple. I don't rate scotish football at all and until O'Neil does something to prove he's top class or even world class i'd rather not go there. he's a waste of time and certainly no better than what we have already. Besides he's a manc... not a red.

[Owzat]

O'Neil on the other hand doesn't. He's a great motivator and gets the very best out of average players. That it... nothing more. He won two league cups with Leciester which is a great acheivment and hats off to the man for acheiving that. But i'd be gutted with myself if i couldn't win the league in scotland. Everyone knows its a 2 team league... beat rangers win the title. That simple. I don't rate scotish football at all and until O'Neil does something to prove he's top class or even world class i'd rather not go there. he's a waste of time and certainly no better than what we have already. Besides he's a manc... not a red.

I have to agree 100%. Being the best of two teams is not too hard and I don't rate too many Celtic players that highly, nor Rangers. Larsson aside I think most would be at best average Premiership players. People make a big deal about matches between English and Scottish clubs but they raise their game against us as was shown in the play-offs for Euro 2000. Maybe we are harsh on the Old Firm clubs but I truly think they would struggle to make fourth in the Premiership

O'Neill's achievements at Leicester have to be put into perspective. He managed some top ten finishes and a couple of wins in a competition not many good teams take seriously. The beaten finalists of spurs and boro say it all. Those two sides have also finished top ten in the league and neither of those are great by any means. Tranmere have made the final in recent years ffs!

We won't know if/until O'Neill comes to manage a big English club but I think his reputation has been blown out of all proportion by the media

[big al]

I'm not a Martin O'Neill fan but I'd much rather have him managing Liverpool than Houlier.

[big al]

Stu_the _red If ferggies not the best tacticaly in the league, then give us the benefit of your vastly superior intellect and put some perspective on the situation by telling us who is.

[dennisokoh]

Hi there There seems to be a lot of aggro going on out there which basically stems from the state of affairs of the present LFC.
I have always believed in giving a man (or woman) a fair chance of proving themselve but GH has had a lot of time to get things right.

At the end of the day the proof is in the pudding! Who ever we bring in they will need to prove them selves as breaking into the top three is going to be awfully difficult.

lots of bad buys Stu_the_red, Lots of bad buys!

as for attracting good /quality/world class players we can only pray they will be properly motivated to play for the team.

[redandblue]

Top class managers are measured by several things..........motivational skills (including getting the very best out of the players), the ability to bring in top quality players and get them playing even better, buying players at the right price, tactical ability and in particular to turn things around when a game is not going to plan. Oh, and winning the league.

Ferguson is a great motivator, he inspires his players, they frequently overturn deficits. Generally, he buys well although he does make some errors, but overall his purchases have been excellent to inspirational.......Cantona, Van Nistelrooy, Sheringham, Ole Gunner. And he wins important trophies.

Wenger makes sensational purchases......Anelka, Viera and Henry cost very little. He gets the best out of them. They play great football. They can alter a game plan when things are going against them. And he wins important trophies.

O'Neill is a fantastic motivator. He inspires his players. Time will tell whether he can do it in England but there is no doubt that he gets the best out of his players.

Houllier?? Well, where do we start. He buys badly (numerous examples). He fails to inspire his players or get the best out of them (numerous examples). He is incapable of overturning a deficit......the last time Liverpool won a league match when we were behind at half time was 1999. It's an incredible statistic. He seems to fall out easily with key players and a lot of ex-players clearly resent him. And as for his tactics, well, apart from mugging opponents, defending deep and counter attacking, when did Liverpool last play inspirational attacking football. Not for a while. And he doesn't get close to winning important trophies.

Houllier is not a serious manager. Ferguson is. Wenger is. O'Neill might be. We'd be better off with someone who might be than someone who will never be good enough.

[115-1073096938]

Stu_the _red If ferggies not the best tacticaly in the league, then give us the benefit of your vastly superior intellect and put some perspective on the situation by telling us who is.

I would say Ranieri is excellent tactically. George Graham and Gerard Houllier. All of whom have extensive tactical knowledge.

Tactical knowledge isn't about playing pretty. Its about identifying a strength or weakness and knowing how to use it and winning games. Houllier has stung sides out to get certain results and knows how to do it.

The way we've played against United before the ridiculous events of last season proves this. They had the better players, you've said yourself he can't motivate players but we always used to "do 'em" (like tha sayin). The fact is we stopped them playing. Barcelona away... he went for the 0-0 and got it, i don't care how many chances they had the fact is we won the game. Newcastle this season missing 6 players away... we go and get a draw which is a decent result under the circumstances. the FA cup final i keep hearing people say how we got battered.... in football you make your own luck and if you have class like Owen who needs 2 chances to score two goals its not luck. Liverpool will probably never be able to have the very best players again so sometimes its going to take tactical play to win us games.

Houllier done this with his treble team and the team of the season after which finished second. Defensively there isn't great pace in the side so we sit deep in our own half which doesn't allow space in behind the centre halfs and full backs as they were all strong defenders they all played to there strengths. If you have pacey defenders who aren't as good positionally and at out an out defending you push higher up the pitch so they can use there pace as a recovery. The because we sat deep with Hamann infront of them it became VERY hard to break down as teams were confronted by basically an 8 man defense, this also stopped other teams midfields making runs beyond our own which is why some games were very "boring" to some people.

When you have players who can play through balls in midfield aswell then basically it was a case of suck the other teams onto you, leave space for Owen and Heskey to run onto.... How many goals were scored from through balls and balls over the top? My point exactly... this wasn't a fluke... this was down to excellent tactical play. this shouldn't have changed... Imagine playing the same way but Kewell in for Smicer? like i've said before thats more points... he's a better player in just about every department.

Imo tactically recently we've changed, we now push further up the field which leaves us more vunerable to pace at the back and allows less space for Owen and Baros to use there pace and movement upfront. Also with Biscan't in the side it doesn't matter what tactics you use.

Tactically i know practically f##k all to be honest its very long winded and hard to explain and i can't be arsed. I've only done my FA coaching badge which covers basic tactical knowledge, when i complete the uefa "a" i might be able to explain a little more clearly.

Alot of you seem to think Houllier is tactically inept which is along way short of the truth, my advice... if you want to learn about football and tactics properly and understand just what these managers are like and how clever they actually are and how tacitcal play effects games try doing these courses and getting to a uefa "b" level... maybe then some of you will realise just whats what and understand the situation a little better.

[JBG]

Stu the Red.....    

You are only here five minutes and already you are probably the most controversial member.....Cheeesecakery will be getting upset!

By the way, the rest of us have been here a while and we don't go around swearing and insulting each other. We might not always agree, but we try to listen to each other and reply intelligently to each others arguements. I think one of the biggest insults you can make is to argue that someone isn't a real fan of the club, so lay off the likes of Coops just because he disagrees with you.

[supersub]

stu you must of missed last season because the garbage you've just spewed out was exactly how we played last year and it was cr#p,complete and utter cr#p.Now you being an expert on tactics should have noticed that the treble was won ,with the aid of lady luck,on those defensive instructions but that was 3 years ago and it hasn't worked since.Even your messiah Houllier has decided to ditch that approach,thankfully,and gone down the road of attack is probably the best means to gain admission into the champions league because strangely enough the best teams in Europe with probably the better tactically aware managers/coaches seem to employ an attacking style of play.

[115-1073096938]

fair enough but some fruitcake questioned what i want for the club. thats just as bad.

at the end of the day i'm a supporter... not a critic. Yes i get p#ssed off an puzzled with some decisions houllier makes and yes sometimes i cringe when i hear some of the signings he's made but i don't have a short memory and i am plainly a realist and know what is and isn't possible. I can't understand this mentallity of NOT being objective and then calling for the bosses head... its damn right stupid. "£100m on average players" i hear... its not 100 million on average players... alot of good players where also signed with that money.

Also what people are prepared to say is he can't win the league with 100 million. thats signed around thirty players.

now lets look at other teams spending over the last 5 years.

Chelsea spent more this season than Houllier has in his entire reign... thats without taking into account the previous 4 years.

Man Utd
RvN - £18m
Veron - £28m
Ferdinand £30

jib it can't be arsed looking but theres £74 from united in the last 2 years on three players... chelsea spend a ridiculous amount in the summer, how can you expect us to compete with that without patience and belief? footballs changed people... get used to it.