Liverpool FC Forum

[ycsatbjywtbiastkamb]

Again their "ability" has waned massively over the last two years ( due to age ) and now that "ability" doesn't produce the same results on the pitch.

If someone hasn't played well for over a year then that's more than just a form issue - that's them as players getting worse. Hence why they have both done nothing of any significance in the last 12 - 18 months.

Decades ago Maradona had lots of ability and skill - not a great player now though - same with both Etoo and Torres. They were great players but that's past now and it's clear right now that Sturridge is better than them both because he is producing the goods on the pitch consistently - Etoo and Torres aren't.

Why do you think Mourinho said it was a mistake that Chelsea let Sturridge go ?

Players like RvP , Aguero and Rooney are better than Sturridge and they show it by producing the goods now.

You can dribble on about "ability" but it's meaningless unless they produce it on the pitch. Players can be the most skillful player in the world and have all the ability in the world - but if they don't produce the goods on the pitch then they are useless.

Both Torres and Etoo's strongest abilities were their finishing and pace - both of those abilities have waned considerably. That's why they are not the players they once were.

Anyone who suggests both are better right now than Sturridge is utterly clueless

Ability is meaningless?

Really?

So if you put Messi in Stoke Cities tomorrow, he finished the season on lets say... 15-20 goals rather than fifty for Barcelona, does that mean he's a worse player, or the players around him are worse?

And you say I'm clueless???

of course ability is meaningless if you havent got the other attributes to go with it.
why dont we go and sign diego maradona then? maybe the fact that he cant run has something to do with it.

[Stu the Red]

Again their "ability" has waned massively over the last two years ( due to age ) and now that "ability" doesn't produce the same results on the pitch.

If someone hasn't played well for over a year then that's more than just a form issue - that's them as players getting worse. Hence why they have both done nothing of any significance in the last 12 - 18 months.

Decades ago Maradona had lots of ability and skill - not a great player now though - same with both Etoo and Torres. They were great players but that's past now and it's clear right now that Sturridge is better than them both because he is producing the goods on the pitch consistently - Etoo and Torres aren't.

Why do you think Mourinho said it was a mistake that Chelsea let Sturridge go ?

Players like RvP , Aguero and Rooney are better than Sturridge and they show it by producing the goods now.

You can dribble on about "ability" but it's meaningless unless they produce it on the pitch. Players can be the most skillful player in the world and have all the ability in the world - but if they don't produce the goods on the pitch then they are useless.

Both Torres and Etoo's strongest abilities were their finishing and pace - both of those abilities have waned considerably. That's why they are not the players they once were.

Anyone who suggests both are better right now than Sturridge is utterly clueless

Ability is meaningless?

Really?

So if you put Messi in Stoke Cities tomorrow, he finished the season on lets say... 15-20 goals rather than fifty for Barcelona, does that mean he's a worse player, or the players around him are worse?

And you say I'm clueless???

of course ability is meaningless if you havent got the other attributes to go with it.
why dont we go and sign diego maradona then? maybe the fact that he cant run has something to do with it.

Ability means ability, it means a players ability. There isn't anything else to "go with it". A lack of ability may mean a lack of physical ability, mental ability or tactical ability. Gerrard's always been decent tactically, I once got abused for daring to suggest he wasn't immense tacitcally... but I stand by what I said 10 years ago, Technically he's always been very good... still is... Physically, he used to a be monster... now he's just ok. He's still fairly quick over five or ten yards (without being pacey), can still turn ok and still is physically strong enough to go win challenges. He isn't as full of energy as he used to be, he's lost that sharpness, as I have agreed in nearly every post. But you don't seem to understand he still has more than enough physical ability to be able to do his own job and in the first half of two games this season because of Lucas inept (at best) performances he's had to do two players jobs. Luckily, we won both. End of arguement, I refuse to argue with people who don't understand the game, have never played it and come out with statements like Henderson and Lucas are better than Gerrard.

[Benny The Noon]

Again their "ability" has waned massively over the last two years ( due to age ) and now that "ability" doesn't produce the same results on the pitch.

If someone hasn't played well for over a year then that's more than just a form issue - that's them as players getting worse. Hence why they have both done nothing of any significance in the last 12 - 18 months.

Decades ago Maradona had lots of ability and skill - not a great player now though - same with both Etoo and Torres. They were great players but that's past now and it's clear right now that Sturridge is better than them both because he is producing the goods on the pitch consistently - Etoo and Torres aren't.

Why do you think Mourinho said it was a mistake that Chelsea let Sturridge go ?

Players like RvP , Aguero and Rooney are better than Sturridge and they show it by producing the goods now.

You can dribble on about "ability" but it's meaningless unless they produce it on the pitch. Players can be the most skillful player in the world and have all the ability in the world - but if they don't produce the goods on the pitch then they are useless.

Both Torres and Etoo's strongest abilities were their finishing and pace - both of those abilities have waned considerably. That's why they are not the players they once were.

Anyone who suggests both are better right now than Sturridge is utterly clueless

Ability is meaningless?

Really?

So if you put Messi in Stoke Cities tomorrow, he finished the season on lets say... 15-20 goals rather than fifty for Barcelona, does that mean he's a worse player, or the players around him are worse?

And you say I'm clueless???

Ability is meaningless unless it's used to produce the goods on the pitch - Supersub is right you are stuck in 2008.

What exactly have both Etoo and Torres produced on the field ? Next to nothing is the answer.

And if Messi was playing for Stoke he would still get over 30 goals a season  because he is that good.

Etoo and Torres play in front of some of the must creative talented players in the league and yet can't score between them. Sturridge plays in front of far less superior players yet scores on a regular basis currently

You can't argue against facts.

So why did Mourinho say it was a mistake to let Sturridge go - I'll tell you why - because he knows he would be his number one striker ahead of both Torres and Etoo.

[damjan193]

Remind us again Stu. What is it exactly that you don't rate with Sturridge as a striker? I saw what you expect from players, but which of those things you think that Sturridge lacks?

[Stu the Red]

Remind us again Stu. What is it exactly that you don't rate with Sturridge as a striker? I saw what you expect from players, but which of those things you think that Sturridge lacks?

He doesn't read the game or offer anything other than a reaction. He is a good finisher and his movement is good and quick. He will always score goals, but I believe he'll miss chances he should put away (fairly regularly) he'll shoot or hold onto it when he should pass, his link up play is quite frankly average and slow at best.

He was praised against United, but in the second half there were four or five times he held it up brilliantly, but then failed to release it quickly enough to set up potential counter attacks, there were two in particular were we had numbers forward, one pass of his went back instead of square early, and one he held onto too long.

Great players see those chances when they arrive, thats what makes them great. Sturridge didn't.

[damjan193]

Remind us again Stu. What is it exactly that you don't rate with Sturridge as a striker? I saw what you expect from players, but which of those things you think that Sturridge lacks?

He doesn't read the game or offer anything other than a reaction. He is a good finisher and his movement is good and quick. He will always score goals, but I believe he'll miss chances he should put away (fairly regularly) he'll shoot or hold onto it when he should pass, his link up play is quite frankly average and slow at best.

He was praised against United, but in the second half there were four or five times he held it up brilliantly, but then failed to release it quickly enough to set up potential counter attacks, there were two in particular were we had numbers forward, one pass of his went back instead of square early, and one he held onto too long.

Great players see those chances when they arrive, thats what makes them great. Sturridge didn't.

I see.

Well, first of, I don't know what you mean by "reading the game"? Defensively or offensively? I presume offensively. He actually does read the game well, for a striker. His link up play and partnership with Countinho from last season was something that we all agreed that we should build our team around. Also, he knows how to make something out of nothing, like picking up that back pass by Shelvey when we played Swansea.

I'll agree that he doesn't always make the best decisions. He's always selfish and shoots instead of making a pass. But for someone who says that he knows the game well, you should know that that's a striker's instinct. Since young age, strikers are taught to think about nothing but scoring a goal. Over time it becomes a reflex reaction and they become single minded. Also, isn't this something characteristic for Suarez as well? And Sturridge puts away more of his chances than Suarez does as well, that's for certain.

I think you ask too much from players. This isn't a five-a-side football where all players must be all-rounders, capable of playing everything and everywhere. It's a game of different positions and players with different abilities. Sturridge's job isn't to be a creator, to make a pick players out or play a defense splitting pass (although he does that sometimes). His job is to score a goal, to be a poacher. And so far, he's been great and has done his job.

[Stu the Red]

Remind us again Stu. What is it exactly that you don't rate with Sturridge as a striker? I saw what you expect from players, but which of those things you think that Sturridge lacks?

He doesn't read the game or offer anything other than a reaction. He is a good finisher and his movement is good and quick. He will always score goals, but I believe he'll miss chances he should put away (fairly regularly) he'll shoot or hold onto it when he should pass, his link up play is quite frankly average and slow at best.

He was praised against United, but in the second half there were four or five times he held it up brilliantly, but then failed to release it quickly enough to set up potential counter attacks, there were two in particular were we had numbers forward, one pass of his went back instead of square early, and one he held onto too long.

Great players see those chances when they arrive, thats what makes them great. Sturridge didn't.

I see.

Well, first of, I don't know what you mean by "reading the game"? Defensively or offensively? I presume offensively. He actually does read the game well, for a striker. His link up play and partnership with Countinho from last season was something that we all agreed that we should build our team around. Also, he knows how to make something out of nothing, like picking up that back pass by Shelvey when we played Swansea.

I'll agree that he doesn't always make the best decisions. He's always selfish and shoots instead of making a pass. But for someone who says that he knows the game well, you should know that that's a striker's instinct. Since young age, strikers are taught to think about nothing but scoring a goal. Over time it becomes a reflex reaction and they become single minded. Also, isn't this something characteristic for Suarez as well? And Sturridge puts away more of his chances than Suarez does as well, that's for certain.

I think you ask too much from players. This isn't a five-a-side football where all players must be all-rounders, capable of playing everything and everywhere. It's a game of different positions and players with different abilities. Sturridge's job isn't to be a creator, to make a pick players out or play a defense splitting pass (although he does that sometimes). His job is to score a goal, to be a poacher. And so far, he's been great and has done his job.

Anticipation is speed of thought and ability to "predict"/see whats developing and get yourself into a position. Sturridge doesn't do this, he reacts to situations rather than reads them. His movement is very good at times, but its also very selfish and limited. I've said that, he will always score goals, movement is a very different attribute. It can be broken down, he doesn't show short well and he doesn't offer someone under pressure a good outlet ball.

I knew you'd use Shelvey's backpass as an example. I'll be honest, I don't play upfront, I'd have scored that blindfolded. He took it well, but to use that as an example of anticipation is misguided.

Its because I do know the game that I know what you're saying about a striker shooting is complete rubbish. Alot of people say it, they all know it isn't true. Graet strikers like Owen, Fowler, Henry, Torres, van Persie, Rooney all know when to shoot... they do not run down blind alleys and shoot when there is a better option on. Sturridge sees the shot, and only the shot, not the one two before hand that will allow him to get a shot away with more time and more space, or the one two which if he gives to someone, may not go back to him but put a different player through on goal who finishes the chance.

All the little details make a team and make a player.

Based on Suarez, quite simply over the last two season, less so last season, I seen him get into the box and there was nothing on, or he was more likely to stick it in himself. I've seen him square balls in the box, he shows that awareness so to compare Sturridge to Luis is greatly unfair as they're a completely different class of player.

And I really don't ask alot of players. Just that they can offer more than doing "one job". You'll never win a league with "job doers". Your good players have to have other attributes, your lesser players have to be solid. Liverpool over the last few years have always been at least one player short, now, they're probably 5 or 6. Sturridge is one we can get away with providing the right quality is around him, but for me, if that lads your strongest link, you're always going to have games like yesterday.

[Stu the Red]

In expantion to the point, his movement ability is equal to but very different to what Bellamy used to bring to the table. Bellamy was a great unselfish runner who offered a fabulous outlet, but not great at making goal scoring runs (the Michael Owen run), Sturridge is much more like the Owen type of player (only nowhere near as good).

[Benny The Noon]

Wow you certainly do have a high opinion of yourself

You played a bit of semi pro football - that's nothing in the big picture - that's just a step up from Sunday league football and it certainly doesn't mean you know more than people that haven't played "semi pro for £40 a match " football

I know a guy who has played prem football ( currently plays League 1 ) - can guarantee you that he isnt the greatest when it comes to knowing about the game.

Every time you post totally dismissing anyone's opinion you actually show that you don't know that much at all.

Anyone that says Johnson is poor , Torres is better than Sturridge clearly doesn't know as much as he constantly declares.

[damjan193]

Stu, you must understand, Sturridge is a poacher.

Remember what we lacked the season we were with Kenny? Someone to stick the ball in the damn net. That's what Sturridge does and that's why he was brought in.

And he does have player with the right quality and right attributes around him, and that's Suarez and Coutinho. They can do most of the things that you want Sturridge to do. They will feed him the balls and he will score.

I just don't get it, if you know that he will score the goals, I really don't understand what else you want from him. No offense but I think that you're just trying to seem smart and knowledgeable of the game because you've spotted some of his weaknesses. He has them I agree, but it doesn't make him a bad striker.

[Stu the Red]

Stu, you must understand, Sturridge is a poacher.

Remember what we lacked the season we were with Kenny? Someone to stick the ball in the damn net. That's what Sturridge does and that's why he was brought in.

And he does have player with the right quality and right attributes around him, and that's Suarez and Coutinho. They can do most of the things that you want Sturridge to do. They will feed him the balls and he will score.

I just don't get it, if you know that he will score the goals, I really don't understand what else you want from him. No offense but I think that you're just trying to seem smart and knowledgeable of the game because you've spotted some of his weaknesses. He has them I agree, but it doesn't make him a bad striker.

But the point is mate we aren't the same team we were under Kenny. That side, for all its flaws had alot about it and was very sharp on the counter, we were regularly out playing sides that season, we played as a unit and counter attacked at times with breath taking speed, had Sturridge played in that system with the players we had he would have probably been the right player to help us win games. The fact is this new style for me is clearly wrong for the players we have and it certainly isn't masking our midfield problem which is starting to become a real issue. Sturridge unfortunately is a massive part of that.

The keeper, Skrtel, Toure (at right back at least) Lucas and Suarez aren't suited to it. Suarez (mainly because he'll have to play wide).

This side can't afford players to "do jobs" just yet. It needs improving with quality. Sturridge, while he certainly has his uses is by no means a great player.

Now what you're clearly not understanding, is I'm not saying he's *****, I'm not saying he should be out the door and I'm not saying he was a waste of money. All I'm saying is, if we want to win a league, he needs to be the weakest link, not one of the strongest. The lad is no where near as good as people are making out.

We've even had one nugget on here saying he's a better player than Suarez...

[damjan193]

Stu, you must understand, Sturridge is a poacher.

Remember what we lacked the season we were with Kenny? Someone to stick the ball in the damn net. That's what Sturridge does and that's why he was brought in.

And he does have player with the right quality and right attributes around him, and that's Suarez and Coutinho. They can do most of the things that you want Sturridge to do. They will feed him the balls and he will score.

I just don't get it, if you know that he will score the goals, I really don't understand what else you want from him. No offense but I think that you're just trying to seem smart and knowledgeable of the game because you've spotted some of his weaknesses. He has them I agree, but it doesn't make him a bad striker.

But the point is mate we aren't the same team we were under Kenny. That side, for all its flaws had alot about it and was very sharp on the counter, we were regularly out playing sides that season, we played as a unit and counter attacked at times with breath taking speed, had Sturridge played in that system with the players we had he would have probably been the right player to help us win games. The fact is this new style for me is clearly wrong for the players we have and it certainly isn't masking our midfield problem which is starting to become a real issue. Sturridge unfortunately is a massive part of that.

The keeper, Skrtel, Toure (at right back at least) Lucas and Suarez aren't suited to it. Suarez (mainly because he'll have to play wide).

This side can't afford players to "do jobs" just yet. It needs improving with quality. Sturridge, while he certainly has his uses is by no means a great player.

Now what you're clearly not understanding, is I'm not saying he's *****, I'm not saying he should be out the door and I'm not saying he was a waste of money. All I'm saying is, if we want to win a league, he needs to be the weakest link, not one of the strongest. The lad is no where near as good as people are making out.

We've even had one nugget on here saying he's a better player than Suarez...

So basically, what you're saying is that it's not Sturridge but the overall team that's not good enough? That's a different discussion Stu and it mainly has nothing to do with Sturridge.

Regardless of what you or I think, it's a fact that Sturridge has done well so far and there is really not much room for criticism. Until he goes bad, he deserves praise, especially from us as Liverpool fans. I think you should lower your expectations a bit. Not everyone's Gabriel Batistuta. I don't think there's more I can add to this discussion.

[Stu the Red]

Stu, you must understand, Sturridge is a poacher.

Remember what we lacked the season we were with Kenny? Someone to stick the ball in the damn net. That's what Sturridge does and that's why he was brought in.

And he does have player with the right quality and right attributes around him, and that's Suarez and Coutinho. They can do most of the things that you want Sturridge to do. They will feed him the balls and he will score.

I just don't get it, if you know that he will score the goals, I really don't understand what else you want from him. No offense but I think that you're just trying to seem smart and knowledgeable of the game because you've spotted some of his weaknesses. He has them I agree, but it doesn't make him a bad striker.

But the point is mate we aren't the same team we were under Kenny. That side, for all its flaws had alot about it and was very sharp on the counter, we were regularly out playing sides that season, we played as a unit and counter attacked at times with breath taking speed, had Sturridge played in that system with the players we had he would have probably been the right player to help us win games. The fact is this new style for me is clearly wrong for the players we have and it certainly isn't masking our midfield problem which is starting to become a real issue. Sturridge unfortunately is a massive part of that.

The keeper, Skrtel, Toure (at right back at least) Lucas and Suarez aren't suited to it. Suarez (mainly because he'll have to play wide).

This side can't afford players to "do jobs" just yet. It needs improving with quality. Sturridge, while he certainly has his uses is by no means a great player.

Now what you're clearly not understanding, is I'm not saying he's *****, I'm not saying he should be out the door and I'm not saying he was a waste of money. All I'm saying is, if we want to win a league, he needs to be the weakest link, not one of the strongest. The lad is no where near as good as people are making out.

We've even had one nugget on here saying he's a better player than Suarez...

So basically, what you're saying is that it's not Sturridge but the overall team that's not good enough? That's a different discussion Stu and it mainly has nothing to do with Sturridge.

Regardless of what you or I think, it's a fact that Sturridge has done well so far and there is really not much room for criticism. Until he goes bad, he deserves praise, especially from us as Liverpool fans. I think you should lower your expectations a bit. Not everyone's Gabriel Batistuta. I don't think there's more I can add to this discussion.

To be fair, I suppose yes, thats a slant you could put on it. Do I think Sturridge could play in a league winning side? Yes probably. But as the worst player in one. If that makes sense?

Do I think he could be the "main man". Absolutely not a chance in this world.

Look, I don't think Sturridge is useless, he's not one of the players I look at and wonder "if I had knees that worked could I do better" but do I think he's as good as made out by some? Not a chance. I'm not for over hyping things that don't deserve it, but by the same token, if someone called him Sh*t I'd have there head on a plate. He's there, he's not letting us down and thats fine, could we do better? I'd think so, but to lay the blame soley at Gerrard's feet is crazy as this lad should be offering more of an outlet. Luckily its only attitude really holding him back (his attitude towards team play) Lets see if that ever changes...

[Stu the Red]

Just to add to that... I've had a few bevvies, so if I was chatting Sh*t before (unlikely )

Then the next thirty minute I probably, definately (sounds like an oasis sound track) will do....

[devaney]

Stu I think you've been having more than just a few bevies since you came back !!!