Liverpool FC Forum

[weringo]

wat the faak do u kno about soccer u ignorant fak !

nuff said

[curly_whirly]

Ok, this topic is getting very very heated, and a few too many insults being thrown around for some unknown and unaparent reason. Has anyone thought that the reason why Stevie on the right, momo and alonso in the middle has not worked this season has been down to the fact that 1) we have had a number of new players that have been trying to settle into the team 2) They are not clicking with each other due to lack of confidence, esp Gerrard after the World Cup (he and Lampard both have admitted that the WC rocked them big time, and they have suffered as a result!) 3) the team overall has not had an understanding generally! We finally have had players clicking with each other recently and the fact that SG has moved to the centre has helped him gain his confidence as well has support the team.

Now on the topic of formations, has no-one remember the FA Cup run last season, where Rafa tried the 3-5-2 formation, and it worked, then kept it for a couple of prem games. It can work, esp if we keep either Riise or Finnan in the team, however against Barca i'm not convinced it will work, we need a solid back 4. The question then is how do u play the midfield and forwards.

These days i'm slightly tempted to play 5 in the middle, have momo drop back slightly SG and XA infront, with JP and MG the wingers with Kuyt up front. Kuyt can hold the ball very well, link with SG as well as come bak and help out if needs be. He's strong and can turn defences.

If not, then why not play SG, MS, XA, LG? momo can drop bak and look after the likes of mesi or deco, gerrard can peal off to the right, with luis pealing off to the left, with the two front men (at this moment in time it would have to be craig and kuyt) supporting, or if needs be they peal of to the left/right with luis/gerrard pushing up through the middle, either way you still have cover with momo and alonso and gerrard can still get back to help out.

However - my view is that we can all talk about our views on where SG should play, and which team should be picked, however, hands up if your are the manager of the team?

Exactly, so why not leave it upto Rafa, he has proved his worth already, and i'm sure he is thinking of ways of how beating Barca.

The match is not till the 6th of March, so there is plenty of time to train and figure things out! So why not chill?

[weringo]

Ok, this topic is getting very very heated, and a few too many insults being thrown around for some unknown and unaparent reason. Has anyone thought that the reason why Stevie on the right, momo and alonso in the middle has not worked this season has been down to the fact that 1) we have had a number of new players that have been trying to settle into the team 2) They are not clicking with each other due to lack of confidence, esp Gerrard after the World Cup (he and Lampard both have admitted that the WC rocked them big time, and they have suffered as a result!) 3) the team overall has not had an understanding generally! We finally have had players clicking with each other recently and the fact that SG has moved to the centre has helped him gain his confidence as well has support the team.

Now on the topic of formations, has no-one remember the FA Cup run last season, where Rafa tried the 3-5-2 formation, and it worked, then kept it for a couple of prem games. It can work, esp if we keep either Riise or Finnan in the team, however against Barca i'm not convinced it will work, we need a solid back 4. The question then is how do u play the midfield and forwards.

These days i'm slightly tempted to play 5 in the middle, have momo drop back slightly SG and XA infront, with JP and MG the wingers with Kuyt up front. Kuyt can hold the ball very well, link with SG as well as come bak and help out if needs be. He's strong and can turn defences.

If not, then why not play SG, MS, XA, LG? momo can drop bak and look after the likes of mesi or deco, gerrard can peal off to the right, with luis pealing off to the left, with the two front men (at this moment in time it would have to be craig and kuyt) supporting, or if needs be they peal of to the left/right with luis/gerrard pushing up through the middle, either way you still have cover with momo and alonso and gerrard can still get back to help out.

However - my view is that we can all talk about our views on where SG should play, and which team should be picked, however, hands up if your are the manager of the team?

Exactly, so why not leave it upto Rafa, he has proved his worth already, and i'm sure he is thinking of ways of how beating Barca.

The match is not till the 6th of March, so there is plenty of time to train and figure things out! So why not chill?

I feel if Kuyt plays up on his own, we will never be able to hold on to the ball and end up defending very deep. Imo we should play with Gerrard on the right with Momo and Xabi in the middle, this is not because I doubt Gerrards ability in the middle, but because it will keep us tighter at the back and Gerrard will help Finnan at the back dealing with their main man, Ronaldinho. Another reason is because imo Sissoko must play at all costs at the nou camp, he will be running all over the place right to the final whistle and wont allow barca any fluidity.

As you say the game is 3 months away and anything could happen between now and then. Gerrard might be injured or one of our recent signings may be hitting some form. (Gonzales, Pennant etc)

[Smeg]

Has aCe' replied yet?

[scouser 'til I die]

The only reason Gerrard was playing under exceptionally at the start of the season was because of the World Cup. It takes time for players who have had bad campaigns to recover, just look at Shevchenko, he still hasn't got his form back on track!

I still think that when momo's back running we should play him in centre mid and put Gerrard right mid where he played great last season.

[83-1165214211]

doesnt make sense...most of what you guys are saying....if you ask me.... Gerrard's best position is central midfield...
against strong opposition, you just cant play him there....not at the moment... i know he scored quite a few, and probably will add some more before the barcelona tie.. but against barca...playin him and momo, or him and Xabi is just not an option...
the way i see it... play

                                  Reina
Finnan           Carragher          Agger          Riise

                      Alonso           Sissoko
Pennant                                                  Garcia
                       Gerrard
                                   Kuyt

Another thicko...

Steven Gerrard is excellent in the tackle, he works hard and he's very very good alround. So why take away 50 percent of his game playing him infront of a midfield?

People used to bang on about "stiffling" his game and only getting half his game out of him playing the holding role for england, now you're on about doing exactly the same (stiffling the defensive side) of his by playing him in an attacking role?

Get a grip ya tool.

He's a midfielder. Not a free role player.

ey smart a$s ! ur playing barcelona not wigan athletic ! think for a sec ! gerrard goes forward and leaves tons of space for the 5 barcelona midfielders and their forward who usually comes deep to help in building up play....still wanna play gerrard along with sissoko in central midfield ?!
THICKO....
wat the faak do u kno about soccer u ignorant fak !
you play sissoko and gerrard and you know you'll get caught on the counter yet and again...we'r not a good side going forward....not in comparison we arent ! we need to keep it tight and play our best team....which believe it or not happens to include gerrard, x.alonso and sissoko all of which play their best when in central roles.... Gerrard happens to be pretty creative and him playin in a more attacking role is sure to limit Xavi's going forward.... you play 4-4-2 with gerrard in the center and you know that'll get you nowhere !
 

What do I know about football?



Listen kiddo, i can't even be arsed going into tactical movements with you... i'll mention some basics for you.

Firstly the formation you are on about using. An adpoted 4-4-2. Basically what you're suggesting is playing Steven Gerrard in a role Wayne Rooney plays....

Steven Gerrard is a natural midfielder, not a forward player. He thinks like a midfielder and not a striker. He does not stretch teams in the same way Rooney does and he certainly doesn't have Rooney's technique, vision or intelligence.

You have different moulds of strikers, some like to play with there back to goal and bring others into play like Chris Sutton, others like to play on the shoulder of full backs across the line and knock down diagnol balls to oncoming strikers, much like what Niall Quinn used to do. Others like to run in behind like Owen, on the shoulder of the last defender, others like to run the channels like Bellamy, others are penalty box strikers like Fowler and van Nistlerooy and others like to drop of and look for the ball and play make, like Rooney and Litmanen. You ocassionally get players who can do a number of things and are therefore excellent strikers.

Steven Gerrard, as good as he is is none of these types of player.

Effectively you've just said to play Dirk Kuyt on his own upfront against Puyol and Marquez who are two excellent footballers.

Now Dirk Kuyt as good as he is, isn't going to hold the ball up consistently well over 90 minutes, sometimes he's very good, sometimes he's poor. He couldn't do that aswell as someone like Ashton for example. Now this causes a problem as the ball will come straight back at you. Also the fact he's going to be pressing at LEAST 3 defenders at all times will mean he'll never get near the ball and will probably run out of energy after 60 minutes or so... The other proplem you have is when a team like Barcelona have the ball there is then no pressure at all on the ball at the back and they have time and space to pick passes into the midfield.

Following so far dipshit?

Now Mr Kuyt also isn't the quickest of players and isn't going to cause trouble to the Barca defence with pace so they can effectively push right up as the chances of him winning a flick on are minimal and if he does there is no-one there to run in behind... Also he doesn't really have the pace to trouble the Barca defence as i already said...

So therefore you have already, even before you kicked off gave Barcelona the initiative. As they have time at the back and the space at the back to work the ball forward. Now the counter for that would be to sit deep and for Liverpool to only start pressing on the half way line... excellent... Liverpool camped deep in there own half and not able to get out... where have we seen that before?

You also suggest playing Luis Garcia on the left wing which offers absoloutely no protection to Riise who will be attacked by a winger and an overlapping full back. Luis Garcia also has a nasty tendancy to give the ball away in daft positions, can you imagine him giving the ball away to Ronaldinho on the edge of our box once?

Also the team you have suggested lacks Sami Hyypia's experience and arial dominance. An area which we are far superior to Barcelona so again, why hand them the initiative in that department? Believe it or not they will play long and high passes aswell as on the deck, thats football and Hyypia will be vital. Infact, I am sure if fit he'll start that match.

Now tactically you have suggested a flat 4-5-1. Playing that formation I can realistically only see a goal threat from Riise.

Now, had we two wide players who are capable of tucking in like Robben and maybe Wright-Phillips with an attacking midfielder like Aimar, i could see the logic but the players we have don't provide the goal threat, technical ability or athletic ability to play such a formation. Also how do you propose we attack? In what way? Using overlaps? Usinging an on rushing midfielder? Using someones pace through the middle or wings? or as a complete unit which can leave us exposed to counter attacks?

Liverpool should start with there strongest line up. Gerrard in the middle with Alonso, Kewell on the left, Pennant on the right and Kuyt and Bellamy upfront. We need pressure on the ball all over the park and we need to stretch them while being able to stay fairly compact ourselves.

This isn't like any other opposition in europe. It doesn't matter who you are these will create chances at will, with players like Deco, Ronaldinho, Guily, Gudjohnson, Messi and Etoo the best form of defense is to keep possession.

Something we'll conceed ALOT of playing your fantastic system as we won't have the option of going forward, stretching Barcelona or playing a ball in behind.

Now if you really want me to get technical and make you look a tit. Say the word. In future think about who you're arguing with. Now run along...

Do you think Rafa will be going for a draw in the 1st leg or might he surpirse everyone and go for a win.

No-one ever plays the game to draw. Rafa will want to win. Just because a draw is acceptable doesn't mean a team is playing to draw.

Even under Houllier last time i don't believe for a second he didn't want the team to win, managers play a tactical game to give them the best chance of winning or even damage limitation.

Just because you don't want to lose 5-0 doesn't mean you don't want to win.

[Espionage]

Stu's back and no one is safe........

I agree with your analysis though, but Pennant if it was up to me, Pennant has to prove that he will do a better job in the side that Momo will.  I am a fan of Gerrard on the right even with the lack of width that he sometimes provides.  I think that the missing link this season has been the pure winger of Harry Kewell to balance this, Garcia cuts in like Gerrard and Gonzalez just (as much as i hate to say) isnt up to a starting spot in our line-up yet.

I am interested to see how Rafa handles the central midfield once Momo returns.  I am skeptical whether Pennant will show the form required to keep Momo on the bench.   I believe that he will go back to the same formation of Alonso/Momo with Gerrard on the right cutting in.  But thats just me.

[112-1077774096]

doesnt make sense...most of what you guys are saying....if you ask me.... Gerrard's best position is central midfield...
against strong opposition, you just cant play him there....not at the moment... i know he scored quite a few, and probably will add some more before the barcelona tie.. but against barca...playin him and momo, or him and Xabi is just not an option...
the way i see it... play

                                  Reina
Finnan           Carragher          Agger          Riise

                      Alonso           Sissoko
Pennant                                                  Garcia
                       Gerrard
                                   Kuyt

Another thicko...

Steven Gerrard is excellent in the tackle, he works hard and he's very very good alround. So why take away 50 percent of his game playing him infront of a midfield?

People used to bang on about "stiffling" his game and only getting half his game out of him playing the holding role for england, now you're on about doing exactly the same (stiffling the defensive side) of his by playing him in an attacking role?

Get a grip ya tool.

He's a midfielder. Not a free role player.

ey smart a$s ! ur playing barcelona not wigan athletic ! think for a sec ! gerrard goes forward and leaves tons of space for the 5 barcelona midfielders and their forward who usually comes deep to help in building up play....still wanna play gerrard along with sissoko in central midfield ?!
THICKO....
wat the faak do u kno about soccer u ignorant fak !
you play sissoko and gerrard and you know you'll get caught on the counter yet and again...we'r not a good side going forward....not in comparison we arent ! we need to keep it tight and play our best team....which believe it or not happens to include gerrard, x.alonso and sissoko all of which play their best when in central roles.... Gerrard happens to be pretty creative and him playin in a more attacking role is sure to limit Xavi's going forward.... you play 4-4-2 with gerrard in the center and you know that'll get you nowhere !
 

What do I know about football?



Listen kiddo, i can't even be arsed going into tactical movements with you... i'll mention some basics for you.

Firstly the formation you are on about using. An adpoted 4-4-2. Basically what you're suggesting is playing Steven Gerrard in a role Wayne Rooney plays....

Steven Gerrard is a natural midfielder, not a forward player. He thinks like a midfielder and not a striker. He does not stretch teams in the same way Rooney does and he certainly doesn't have Rooney's technique, vision or intelligence.

You have different moulds of strikers, some like to play with there back to goal and bring others into play like Chris Sutton, others like to play on the shoulder of full backs across the line and knock down diagnol balls to oncoming strikers, much like what Niall Quinn used to do. Others like to run in behind like Owen, on the shoulder of the last defender, others like to run the channels like Bellamy, others are penalty box strikers like Fowler and van Nistlerooy and others like to drop of and look for the ball and play make, like Rooney and Litmanen. You ocassionally get players who can do a number of things and are therefore excellent strikers.

Steven Gerrard, as good as he is is none of these types of player.

Effectively you've just said to play Dirk Kuyt on his own upfront against Puyol and Marquez who are two excellent footballers.

Now Dirk Kuyt as good as he is, isn't going to hold the ball up consistently well over 90 minutes, sometimes he's very good, sometimes he's poor. He couldn't do that aswell as someone like Ashton for example. Now this causes a problem as the ball will come straight back at you. Also the fact he's going to be pressing at LEAST 3 defenders at all times will mean he'll never get near the ball and will probably run out of energy after 60 minutes or so... The other proplem you have is when a team like Barcelona have the ball there is then no pressure at all on the ball at the back and they have time and space to pick passes into the midfield.

Following so far dipshit?

Now Mr Kuyt also isn't the quickest of players and isn't going to cause trouble to the Barca defence with pace so they can effectively push right up as the chances of him winning a flick on are minimal and if he does there is no-one there to run in behind... Also he doesn't really have the pace to trouble the Barca defence as i already said...

So therefore you have already, even before you kicked off gave Barcelona the initiative. As they have time at the back and the space at the back to work the ball forward. Now the counter for that would be to sit deep and for Liverpool to only start pressing on the half way line... excellent... Liverpool camped deep in there own half and not able to get out... where have we seen that before?

You also suggest playing Luis Garcia on the left wing which offers absoloutely no protection to Riise who will be attacked by a winger and an overlapping full back. Luis Garcia also has a nasty tendancy to give the ball away in daft positions, can you imagine him giving the ball away to Ronaldinho on the edge of our box once?

Also the team you have suggested lacks Sami Hyypia's experience and arial dominance. An area which we are far superior to Barcelona so again, why hand them the initiative in that department? Believe it or not they will play long and high passes aswell as on the deck, thats football and Hyypia will be vital. Infact, I am sure if fit he'll start that match.

Now tactically you have suggested a flat 4-5-1. Playing that formation I can realistically only see a goal threat from Riise.

Now, had we two wide players who are capable of tucking in like Robben and maybe Wright-Phillips with an attacking midfielder like Aimar, i could see the logic but the players we have don't provide the goal threat, technical ability or athletic ability to play such a formation. Also how do you propose we attack? In what way? Using overlaps? Usinging an on rushing midfielder? Using someones pace through the middle or wings? or as a complete unit which can leave us exposed to counter attacks?

Liverpool should start with there strongest line up. Gerrard in the middle with Alonso, Kewell on the left, Pennant on the right and Kuyt and Bellamy upfront. We need pressure on the ball all over the park and we need to stretch them while being able to stay fairly compact ourselves.

This isn't like any other opposition in europe. It doesn't matter who you are these will create chances at will, with players like Deco, Ronaldinho, Guily, Gudjohnson, Messi and Etoo the best form of defense is to keep possession.

Something we'll conceed ALOT of playing your fantastic system as we won't have the option of going forward, stretching Barcelona or playing a ball in behind.

Now if you really want me to get technical and make you look a tit. Say the word. In future think about who you're arguing with. Now run along...

[woof woof !]

Whatever tactic and formation Rafa goes with , imo it's vital we get an away goal . Realistically I expect Barca to win at home and for us to win at our place . The tie could very well be decided on away goals .

[alxy]

I guess this is about where Gerrard is most effective, not where he can play. Yes, he can play RM, but his best position is CM without a doubt. Most of us fans think so, the England manager thinks so, even Gerrard himself thinks so. I think no one, even Rafa will question that.

Now the main gist of the matter is which position does Gerrard play which is best for the TEAM, not the player. If Momo is back, then that question becomes more debatable. For me, it's still CM. When you have a player as good and as influential as Gerrard, then I would play the team around him, not the other way around.

[66-1112520797]

Good point & post Peewee



































Four goals in six games
































































Steven Gerrard
























































Does exactly what it says on the tin, if you you play him in the middle.

23 three goals and countless assists last season along with our best form since Benitez took over says otherwise.

This season we haven't once hit the heights of last season. Wigan were awful, Fulham fell to bits after one goal and Charlton on that day were one of the worst ever premiership sides.

We'll see whats really happening over the coming weeks. Gerrard is back to his best, but don't sit there and say he wasn't doing this from the right last season because you'll only be lying to yourself.

23 goals, Last season yes, spot on mate that was last season.

And I wont lie that his form was great last season, I wont, but his best position in my mind is in the middle and nothing will change that.

[SouthCoastShankly]

Now Dirk Kuyt as good as he is, isn't going to hold the ball up consistently well over 90 minutes, sometimes he's very good, sometimes he's poor. He couldn't do that aswell as someone like Ashton for example.

Well said Stu but you couldn't keep yourself from slipping a sly Dean Ashton arselick in could you!

[sissoko_22]

the fact is when you have special players like stevie, you build your side around them because "special players do special things at special times". when he is in the middle though he does not track back occasionally and this leaves us very open.this could have disasterous effects in the nou camp. its all about stevie getting the right balance.             
When alonso and sissoko are inthe centrew we become a very safe team and very deep.this makes the strikers job more difficult. they are quality footballers but it is very difficult to play attractive football with both in the side.we went on a great run last season which was mainly due to the defence as the majority of our wins were 1 nil.this season the defence hasnt been up to the usual standard and therefore when we concede first we never look like breaking through. stevie is much more dynamic and therefore if we want to win well and put teams under constant pressure likethe scum and arsenal,then stevie should be in centre with alonso or sissoko.

[tubby]

Good point & post Peewee



































Four goals in six games
































































Steven Gerrard
























































Does exactly what it says on the tin, if you you play him in the middle.

23 three goals and countless assists last season along with our best form since Benitez took over says otherwise.

This season we haven't once hit the heights of last season. Wigan were awful, Fulham fell to bits after one goal and Charlton on that day were one of the worst ever premiership sides.

We'll see whats really happening over the coming weeks. Gerrard is back to his best, but don't sit there and say he wasn't doing this from the right last season because you'll only be lying to yourself.

23 goals, Last season yes, spot on mate that was last season.

And I wont lie that his form was great last season, I wont, but his best position in my mind is in the middle and nothing will change that.

But you could also argue that last season we didnt have any major problems with Momo and Alonos was playing a lot better than he had started this season.

Stevie is such a calabre of player that he will score from anywhere he plays.

As Stu said though the coming weeks will tell. Im just glad he is scoring now. And Bellamy also for that matter so the heat isnt on Steve as much to score in every game.

[weringo]

Building the team around one player is was sides do who only have one decent player. Look at Barcelona, their best player is Ronaldinho who's best position is argueably as a central attacking midfielder, but he is played out on the left wing (albeit he drifts inside alot) for the good of the team. As good as Gerrard is he cant win every game by himself so the question has to be asked, do we have a better team with Gerrard on the right with Alonso and Sissoko in the centre or with Gerrard in the centre and Sissoko/Alonso not starting.