Liverpool FC Forum

[account deleted by request]

I think this from the Times says it all really!

[red37]

tommy smith had more go in him stood there on one leg before the kick-off...  4s all round near enough    not good enough, again.

[Espionage]

What was the problem?

Formation -  I am not sure if blaming Rafa's formation is the right thing to do at this stage.  I think that what Rafa tried to do was play a good defensive team in a pretty defensive formation and play for a clean sheet (not a bad tactic).  We looked very solid in defense but were undone by a decent goal.  A team of ManU's quality has a pretty high chance of getting a goal such as that in most games (especially at OT), so quit whining about it.  Offensively, Kuyt was isolated becasue he never seemed to get any support.  When Crouch came on and played the role that Garcia played, there seemed to be better link up.  I am not convinced that Rafa's 4-2-3-1 will not work in the PL, I just think that our players were forgetting what thier roles were.  We saw Gerrard and Garcia basically playing a midfield role when they are suppost to both be playing a second striker type role.  Gonzalez and Pennat seemed to suit the system a bit more becasue they played further up the pitch.

Rotation - Dont see how it affected us in this game.

Gerrard and Rafa fued (does one of them have to go?) - This is the most ridiculas piece of garbage I have read in a long time.  You wait till there is smoke before you start spouting this rubbish.  We have a good coach and a good captain.


The truth is I dont know what the problem is, I know that the above things are not the problem.  We are not performing, and to tell you the truth, neither are the fans.  It is our privelidge and a duty to support out club, enjoy the wins, and mourn the defeats.  I watched the game at a local pub, and there were Liverpool fans jeering Garcia, Momo, Kuyt and Rafa.  Would Rafa be doing the same thing to his players when things are not going right? NO, becasue it is not doing anything positive for the team, and it destroys an already dented morale.  Sometimes I see similiar behaviour on this forum, and what I dont understand is these "real fans" that "feel real pain when Liverpool lose" feel they have the right to bag our players when things arent going well but jump back on when things are going well.  None of this "i think hes sh1t, but I hope he proves me wrong" bullsh1t.  You either gut behiend your team or just f*ck off, go support someone else because you are nothing to this club. 

Think about what the words "You'll never walk alone" mean...........

[Bad Bob]

So where are we now? Are we still just unlucky when we play away, is rotation really working?, is it just a tough fixture list that's finding us out? or is there a deeper problem within the ranks?

On the back of a display which was just about as disappointing as any I can remember as a Liverpool fan and with the rumour drums hinting at problems with the captain rumbling in the distance, are we about to reach a tipping point in the direction of the club?

Clearly all is not well with Gerrard, and such is his influence over the team as a whole the effect is a tame acceptance of defeat by our biggest rivals and enemy. That's the bit that irks. It's not the tame way we conceded the goals, nor is the ole's as the Mancs took the p!ss, not even is it that we felt the need to once again re-visit the 4-5-1 to prove conclusively (surely once and for all this time) that it doesn't work for us. No, what it is that really sticks in the craw is the lack of fight, the acceptance that it isn't our day, the willingness to allow the game to drift into the inevitable slow-death of defeat.

I'm a big believer in body language being significant. In those shrugs of the shoulders and sighs of exasperation with your teammates lies the clue to the mood in the ranks. When the players don't believe anymore in the mantra, when they become disillusioned with the tactics and beginn to ring each other on a night to talk about it, they used to call it "losing the dressing room".

Well whether or not the dressing room is lost is one thing, the fact that Gerrard is currently lost beyond help is entirely another. Who knows, it could be due to these cryptic and damaging rumours about his private life, or could it be that he is becoming disillusioned with the way he is being deployed? if it is the latter, then we basically have three choices the way I see it. We either have a chat with him and try and find some accomodation with his misgivings about the tactical approach we are employing (this will probably involve stopping the ridiculous rotations/formation changes and never playing him left hand side again). The other two options are obvious, either he goes or Rafa does.

If it was me I'd go with the first option. It comes to something when you hope the stories about the fellas missus are true as that's the least damaging option.

Is it just me, or have we got a problem here, and if we have what would you do?

Filtering through all of the utter nonsense in this thread and focusing on the original post, I'll say that I'm worried too, Mick.  We've had a number of poor results this season but this is the first game where we were comprehensively out-played in every area of the pitch.  United thoroughly deserved their goals and all three points.

As you say, the really worry was the body language and utter lack of fight.  I can understand the heads dropping a bit at the end of the first half: we came out fighting and looked well up for it but the end product was poor and they came at us.  We conceded an easy goal and the tail-spin started.  So, the lads go into the dressing room at the half, get their heads sorted and come out fighting, right?  Wrong.  They came out tentative, flat and bereft of ideas in the attacking third.  To a man they seemed to look for others to do the business.  There was just no real belief that they were still in the match.  And then the errant passes started leading to scowls, head shakes and all the other worrying signs of a team in turmoil.  As you say, Mick, there's something deeper and more malignant at work here than lack of confidence or the hard-luck of a tough set of fixtures.

How do we sort it out?  D.amned if I know, TBH.  Hopefully a clear the air session will take place at Melwood tomorrow and the team can work through some of the simmering problems.  Hopefully they will find the fight within that will spark the turn around.  Otherwise it will be a long season.

I'm gutted with the performance today and I'm more than a little worried about the underlying problems that have confounded us at every turn this season.  What I am sure of is that the players and manager still need and deserve our full support.  No one needs to be sacked.  No one needs to be sold.  No one needs to rot in the reserves.  What all of us--the fans, the organization, the coaching staff and the players--need to remember is that the solution will only come if we stick together and walk on.

[account deleted by request]

What was the problem?

Formation -  I am not sure if blaming Rafa's formation is the right thing to do at this stage.  I think that what Rafa tried to do was play a good defensive team in a pretty defensive formation and play for a clean sheet (not a bad tactic).  We looked very solid in defense but were undone by a decent goal.  A team of ManU's quality has a pretty high chance of getting a goal such as that in most games (especially at OT), so quit whining about it.  Offensively, Kuyt was isolated becasue he never seemed to get any support.  When Crouch came on and played the role that Garcia played, there seemed to be better link up.  I am not convinced that Rafa's 4-2-3-1 will not work in the PL, I just think that our players were forgetting what thier roles were.  We saw Gerrard and Garcia basically playing a midfield role when they are suppost to both be playing a second striker type role.  Gonzalez and Pennat seemed to suit the system a bit more becasue they played further up the pitch.

Rotation - Dont see how it affected us in this game.

Gerrard and Rafa fued (does one of them have to go?) - This is the most ridiculas piece of garbage I have read in a long time.  You wait till there is smoke before you start spouting this rubbish.  We have a good coach and a good captain.


The truth is I dont know what the problem is, I know that the above things are not the problem.  We are not performing, and to tell you the truth, neither are the fans.  It is our privelidge and a duty to support out club, enjoy the wins, and mourn the defeats.  I watched the game at a local pub, and there were Liverpool fans jeering Garcia, Momo, Kuyt and Rafa.  Would Rafa be doing the same thing to his players when things are not going right? NO, becasue it is not doing anything positive for the team, and it destroys an already dented morale.  Sometimes I see similiar behaviour on this forum, and what I dont understand is these "real fans" that "feel real pain when Liverpool lose" feel they have the right to bag our players when things arent going well but jump back on when things are going well.  None of this "i think hes sh1t, but I hope he proves me wrong" bullsh1t.  You either gut behiend your team or just f*ck off, go support someone else because you are nothing to this club. 

Think about what the words "You'll never walk alone" mean...........

Im sorry mate, I usually agree or at least respect your posts but this ones boll0x. The players showed no pride, no passion, no team spirit and no fight. Where was their loyalty to the fans that support them with passion and pride!

A player or a team can have a bad match, can even have a run of bad matches and they will still have my support, but to give up trying is a disgrace to the red shirt they are wearing.

The first goal cost us the game excuse... is just that an excuse. We should be fighting and tackling to the end not giving up.

The heart and fight has gone out of the side this season and the players need to remember what team they play for and who they represent.

All this boll0x about selling players getting rid of Rafa cr*p I agree with you is wrong, but dont blame people for being upset after a display like that!

If the Mancs had played great and we had lost TRYING I would be less angry. The Mancs arnt that good ,didnt need to be great, and we never tried after 1 - 0.

[112-1077774096]

What was the problem?

Formation -  I am not sure if blaming Rafa's formation is the right thing to do at this stage.  I think that what Rafa tried to do was play a good defensive team in a pretty defensive formation and play for a clean sheet (not a bad tactic).  We looked very solid in defense but were undone by a decent goal.  A team of ManU's quality has a pretty high chance of getting a goal such as that in most games (especially at OT), so quit whining about it.  Offensively, Kuyt was isolated becasue he never seemed to get any support.  When Crouch came on and played the role that Garcia played, there seemed to be better link up.  I am not convinced that Rafa's 4-2-3-1 will not work in the PL, I just think that our players were forgetting what thier roles were.  We saw Gerrard and Garcia basically playing a midfield role when they are suppost to both be playing a second striker type role.  Gonzalez and Pennat seemed to suit the system a bit more becasue they played further up the pitch.

Rotation - Dont see how it affected us in this game.

Gerrard and Rafa fued (does one of them have to go?) - This is the most ridiculas piece of garbage I have read in a long time.  You wait till there is smoke before you start spouting this rubbish.  We have a good coach and a good captain.


The truth is I dont know what the problem is, I know that the above things are not the problem.  We are not performing, and to tell you the truth, neither are the fans.  It is our privelidge and a duty to support out club, enjoy the wins, and mourn the defeats.  I watched the game at a local pub, and there were Liverpool fans jeering Garcia, Momo, Kuyt and Rafa.  Would Rafa be doing the same thing to his players when things are not going right? NO, becasue it is not doing anything positive for the team, and it destroys an already dented morale.  Sometimes I see similiar behaviour on this forum, and what I dont understand is these "real fans" that "feel real pain when Liverpool lose" feel they have the right to bag our players when things arent going well but jump back on when things are going well.  None of this "i think hes sh1t, but I hope he proves me wrong" bullsh1t.  You either gut behiend your team or just f*ck off, go support someone else because you are nothing to this club. 

Think about what the words "You'll never walk alone" mean...........

Im sorry mate, I usually agree or at least respect your posts but this ones boll0x. The players showed no pride, no passion, no team spirit and no fight. Where was their loyalty to the fans that support them with passion and pride!

A player or a team can have a bad match, can even have a run of bad matches and they will still have my support, but to give up trying is a disgrace to the red shirt they are wearing.

The first goal cost us the game excuse... is just that an excuse. We should be fighting and tackling to the end not giving up.

The heart and fight has gone out of the side this season and the players need to remember what team they play for and who they represent.

All this boll0x about selling players getting rid of Rafa cr*p I agree with you is wrong, but dont blame people for being upset after a display like that!

If the Mancs had played great and we had lost TRYING I would be less angry. The Mancs arnt that good ,didnt need to be great, and we never tried after 1 - 0.

spot on saint, people shouldnt defend the indefnsible.

espionage its ok to criticise the team mate, it doesnt make you less of a supporter, in my eyes a fan who can give criticism when its deserved is a true fan, they show they care about whats happening and dont just accept the cack we are getting at the moment.

i agree with you about the knee jerk reaction of sacking rafa and selling players, thats just silly talk at the moment. but if rafa cant do it mate at some point he will have to go

[The_Rock]

Rafa has to go?  Get a grip fellas. The fact we have started poorly might have something to do with the number of changes to the squad. Man U are settled. Arsenal, not much change. Chelsea are very similar. Liverpool? We have changed our whole system and to much personnel to gel to soon. Next year with few changes we'll be geared better.

I know a lot of you are impatient! But, we just can't hope for miracles.

Gerrard is suffering, but for england aswell. It's his problem has much as rafa's. The reason i say this is cos stevie has changed hs game too. Two seasons ago you could count on stevie to get his foot in. Tackle, track back and occasionally get forward. Now, he is becoming too attack minded. We need the complete gerrard back. Read his book, that's what he thinks he's strong at.

As for rafa going. Nonsense!  How can you get rid of a manager that's won more in the last two seasons than fergie and wenger combined. The man needs to get back to his blueprint for success and not the fan's or media's fascination with attacking football.

Ask capello, his teams are set up from the back and aren't over attack minded. Teams with a backbone win things more often than attack minded teams. Newcastle, Madrid etc.

Look at world cup, euro's cl? Winners Italy, Greece, Porto, Liverpool. Need i go on.

All in all, rafa needs to get back to basics.

Can someone send those idiots asking for rafa to get fired and alonso to get sold a  warning or a three match ban?

Its all about opinions....if u don't like it...then u can shove it up your..........

I like alonso. But the thing is,...... it is evident that he and gerrard can't play in the same team unless.....

1)We play a 3 man midfield (which then takes away the width of this team)
2)Gerrard play RW or LW (I admit gerrard looks good at RW, but is that position he wants to play in ? He already looking pi$$ed and it is just october).

If Alonso is willing to be on the bench, then its ok with me...as then, it will mean  we have dept in the central midfield department ..but alonso is part of squad who keeps getting picked no matter how he plays (reina, garcia...etc).  Like i said earlier, when alonso's passing ability fails him, his game goes down by 50%.

As for Gerrard, his best position is as an attacking central midfielder who has to be supported with a midfield anchor-man (ie..... sissoko or more aptly hamann), so that he can do what Lamptard does best (scoring). And believe me, Gerrard can score 2 times as many goals as lamptard if we just utilise him correctly. So we need someone to play anchorman. But everytime i see alonso play as an anchorman, i see opposition players get pass him quite easily. And this immediately, puts a lot of pressure on our central defenders who don't like players running at them.

Gerrard is our best player and we have to build our team around him. He shouldn't be moved around the pitch to accomodate less quality players.

[The_Rock]

keep dreaming son

alonso is one of the reasons we aint moving forward

he hasnt improved since he got here?

we need gerrard in centre mid, and sissoko in the holding role.

Tell you what, c*nt:

We play Gerrard and Sissoko in Centre Midfield, and sell Alonso, and we'll never win another match again, you f*cking lemon.

Are you THAT stupid? (Obviously not - you're just a pr*ck on a windup).

I will say to anyone, anytime, any place - ALonso is our best player, and if you can't see that you need to f*cking study the game a lot more.

Gerrard (seeing as Pennant isn't 1st-choice) is our weak link in midfield on current form - you're just too far up his a*se to see it for yourself.

Gimp.

Guess...you are the one who has to wake up your f@ckin eyes.....Gerrard is a weak link in our midfield 









Give me a break.

[The_Rock]

Seems like rafa is living in a cuckoo land.....If we keep playing like this (and losing away games and drawing home games)...we will only be playing 40 odd games this season too.  Sometimes a great man will admit his mistakes...but rafa....

BTW, was valencia even a big club ? How many fans they have outside spain ?



http://www.tribalfootball.com/article.php?id=15580

Benitez warning for Liverpool moaners

Liverpool boss Rafa Benitez says any player unhappy with his rotation policy can leave.
"When the players say 'the press say you are always changing', I say: 'If you want to play every game, go to a small club. You will play one game a week and you will always be in the starting line-up. How many games do a small club play in a season? Maybe 40, 42. A player here might not play every week but will finish with 50 games'."

[112-1077774096]

guys i think we have a serious problem, here is rafa interview with sky sports



Liverpool boss Rafa Benitez believes a lack of concentration at vital moments cost his side against Manchester United.

Paul Scholes took advantage of some poor defending to steal in for the opening goal and a result was beyond Liverpool when Rio Ferdinand netted a superb second.

Benitez was happy with the overall performance of his side at Old Trafford but says mistakes cost them the chance of taking something from the game.

"In the first half we didn't have a lot of problems and then we conceded a goal. Against a good team like United that is always a big problem," Benitez told Sky Sports.

"When you see the players working as hard as they work, you cannot blame them, if you make a mistake, you make a mistake.

"From my point of view it is a pity when you concede."

Benitez was disappointed with the lack of clear-cut chances his side created on the day.

"We were defending well but we couldn't create a lot of clear chances, if you want to win you need to score," he continued.

Meanwhile, Benitez refused to rule out his sides chances of still challenging for the title.

The Reds are now 11 points behind United at the top, but Benitez is not looking any further ahead than their next league outing against Reading.

He added: "In football you never know. I need to think about the next game. When you are at the top, bottom or middle of the table you need to think about the next three points.

"If you want to have possibilities (of being in the title race) you need to start winning games."







so he thought our players worked had and just a couple of lapses of concentration cost us, he must have watched a different game to me. while he can not see the problems that are in front of him we really dont stand any chance

[The_Rock]

Benitez was happy with the overall performance of his side at Old Trafford but says mistakes cost them the chance of taking something from the game.

Happy with the overall performance Give me a break. Is he a M0R0N or what ? That was a pi$$ horrible performance.........

If rafa was happy with that performance, maybe he should just go back to spain....

I would really like to read what those "in rafa we trust" gang will come up with now.........

[The_Rock]

"If you want to have possibilities (of being in the title race) you need to start winning games."

That didn't take a rocket scientist.... 

How about picking to right team and keeping to it, so that the players can win matches.......

[account deleted by request]

He just said all that cr*p for the cameras, hes not daft. Even a blind idiot could see the problems we have. If he believes what he said then we are fkd.

I dont like it when a manager comes out and blasts the players in public, I always think the manager has done it more for their own popularity with the fans rather than to improve the team.

I do think its time he rattled a few cages in private though.

He would be a fool to say the Title has gone, even I still hope a miracle will happen.

[The_Rock]

http://www.tribalfootball.com/article.php?id=15648

Benitez may drive Gerrard out of Liverpool


Former Liverpool midfielder Jamie Redknapp fears Rafa Benitez could drive Steven Gerrard out of Anfield.
TV pundit Redknapp says Gerrard is fed-up with his wide-role and insisted: "The more I watch Stevie the more frustrated I see him becoming.

"How long will he put up with it? That's the big question."

[Kopboyau]

Whats the problem ??

We are conceding to many goals, and are not scoring enough goals !!.

So whats the soloution ??

Give Reina a wake up call and play Dudek ??

Buy another GK in January and sell Dudek (give Reina Competition) ??

I think Rafa HAS TO play Stevie G in Central midfield [B][U] with Sissoko. Play Alonso off the bench .

Play Kuyt and Crouch together. Or Bellamy and Crouch or Kuyt and Bellamy give each combo 4 games and see which one generates more goals.

Gerrard can score goals from CM not from RM.

Please Rafa stop it with your Spanish allegiences and play Stevie G in the middle