Liverpool FC Forum

[Espionage]

What was the problem?

Formation -  I am not sure if blaming Rafa's formation is the right thing to do at this stage.  I think that what Rafa tried to do was play a good defensive team in a pretty defensive formation and play for a clean sheet (not a bad tactic).  We looked very solid in defense but were undone by a decent goal.  A team of ManU's quality has a pretty high chance of getting a goal such as that in most games (especially at OT), so quit whining about it.  Offensively, Kuyt was isolated becasue he never seemed to get any support.  When Crouch came on and played the role that Garcia played, there seemed to be better link up.  I am not convinced that Rafa's 4-2-3-1 will not work in the PL, I just think that our players were forgetting what thier roles were.  We saw Gerrard and Garcia basically playing a midfield role when they are suppost to both be playing a second striker type role.  Gonzalez and Pennat seemed to suit the system a bit more becasue they played further up the pitch.

Rotation - Dont see how it affected us in this game.

Gerrard and Rafa fued (does one of them have to go?) - This is the most ridiculas piece of garbage I have read in a long time.  You wait till there is smoke before you start spouting this rubbish.  We have a good coach and a good captain.


The truth is I dont know what the problem is, I know that the above things are not the problem.  We are not performing, and to tell you the truth, neither are the fans.  It is our privelidge and a duty to support out club, enjoy the wins, and mourn the defeats.  I watched the game at a local pub, and there were Liverpool fans jeering Garcia, Momo, Kuyt and Rafa.  Would Rafa be doing the same thing to his players when things are not going right? NO, becasue it is not doing anything positive for the team, and it destroys an already dented morale.  Sometimes I see similiar behaviour on this forum, and what I dont understand is these "real fans" that "feel real pain when Liverpool lose" feel they have the right to bag our players when things arent going well but jump back on when things are going well.  None of this "i think hes sh1t, but I hope he proves me wrong" bullsh1t.  You either gut behiend your team or just f*ck off, go support someone else because you are nothing to this club. 

Think about what the words "You'll never walk alone" mean...........

Im sorry mate, I usually agree or at least respect your posts but this ones boll0x. The players showed no pride, no passion, no team spirit and no fight. Where was their loyalty to the fans that support them with passion and pride!

A player or a team can have a bad match, can even have a run of bad matches and they will still have my support, but to give up trying is a disgrace to the red shirt they are wearing.

The first goal cost us the game excuse... is just that an excuse. We should be fighting and tackling to the end not giving up.

The heart and fight has gone out of the side this season and the players need to remember what team they play for and who they represent.

All this boll0x about selling players getting rid of Rafa cr*p I agree with you is wrong, but dont blame people for being upset after a display like that!

If the Mancs had played great and we had lost TRYING I would be less angry. The Mancs arnt that good ,didnt need to be great, and we never tried after 1 - 0.

Contructive criticism is what I ask for, I am as upset as everybody, but I dont go around calling for Rafa to be sacked or any of that.  I just think that the way some people are acting after this defeat shows what kind of fans they are.  Vent your frustration out on something else, not on the latest fad.

I must admit that I didnt see "heart and fight" go out of the team when we went 1 goal down.  I didnt see the negative body language that everyone was talking about.  Its natural for a team to struggle to change from a defensive mind-set to offensive.  It seemed like we were unlikely to score in the first place, but with ManU happy to sit back and hit us on the counter didnt help either.  I think I just saw a team that was outplayed on the day, plain and simple. 

I just want the next game to come so we can all forget about United until we meet them at Anfield.  Keep your chin up, now is when the boys need our support the most.

[Espionage]

What was the problem?

Formation -  I am not sure if blaming Rafa's formation is the right thing to do at this stage.  I think that what Rafa tried to do was play a good defensive team in a pretty defensive formation and play for a clean sheet (not a bad tactic).  We looked very solid in defense but were undone by a decent goal.  A team of ManU's quality has a pretty high chance of getting a goal such as that in most games (especially at OT), so quit whining about it.  Offensively, Kuyt was isolated becasue he never seemed to get any support.  When Crouch came on and played the role that Garcia played, there seemed to be better link up.  I am not convinced that Rafa's 4-2-3-1 will not work in the PL, I just think that our players were forgetting what thier roles were.  We saw Gerrard and Garcia basically playing a midfield role when they are suppost to both be playing a second striker type role.  Gonzalez and Pennat seemed to suit the system a bit more becasue they played further up the pitch.

Rotation - Dont see how it affected us in this game.

Gerrard and Rafa fued (does one of them have to go?) - This is the most ridiculas piece of garbage I have read in a long time.  You wait till there is smoke before you start spouting this rubbish.  We have a good coach and a good captain.


The truth is I dont know what the problem is, I know that the above things are not the problem.  We are not performing, and to tell you the truth, neither are the fans.  It is our privelidge and a duty to support out club, enjoy the wins, and mourn the defeats.  I watched the game at a local pub, and there were Liverpool fans jeering Garcia, Momo, Kuyt and Rafa.  Would Rafa be doing the same thing to his players when things are not going right? NO, becasue it is not doing anything positive for the team, and it destroys an already dented morale.  Sometimes I see similiar behaviour on this forum, and what I dont understand is these "real fans" that "feel real pain when Liverpool lose" feel they have the right to bag our players when things arent going well but jump back on when things are going well.  None of this "i think hes sh1t, but I hope he proves me wrong" bullsh1t.  You either gut behiend your team or just f*ck off, go support someone else because you are nothing to this club. 

Think about what the words "You'll never walk alone" mean...........

Im sorry mate, I usually agree or at least respect your posts but this ones boll0x. The players showed no pride, no passion, no team spirit and no fight. Where was their loyalty to the fans that support them with passion and pride!

A player or a team can have a bad match, can even have a run of bad matches and they will still have my support, but to give up trying is a disgrace to the red shirt they are wearing.

The first goal cost us the game excuse... is just that an excuse. We should be fighting and tackling to the end not giving up.

The heart and fight has gone out of the side this season and the players need to remember what team they play for and who they represent.

All this boll0x about selling players getting rid of Rafa cr*p I agree with you is wrong, but dont blame people for being upset after a display like that!

If the Mancs had played great and we had lost TRYING I would be less angry. The Mancs arnt that good ,didnt need to be great, and we never tried after 1 - 0.

spot on saint, people shouldnt defend the indefnsible.

espionage its ok to criticise the team mate, it doesnt make you less of a supporter, in my eyes a fan who can give criticism when its deserved is a true fan, they show they care about whats happening and dont just accept the cack we are getting at the moment.

i agree with you about the knee jerk reaction of sacking rafa and selling players, thats just silly talk at the moment. but if rafa cant do it mate at some point he will have to go

I agree that we are here to criticise our team, it is our right.  But at least do it in the right way.  Dont spam threads with Rafa out, Alonso is , Gerrard's form is Rafa's fault.

Either these people are clueless or are....(is he going to say it).....fickle

Its just when the game thread and/or threads like this one have so many topics going through it that nobody can really argue against someone and people just end up ignoring everyone else's comments. Calling for Rafa's head in a 2 line post in a thread that is already getting spammed in is not discussion, its venting frustration.  I think that if people have something that they think is worth saying then create a thread and argue it.  I love a good debate....

[account deleted by request]

I think we will have to agree to disagree on the lack of heart and fight argument, and just agree that the next match cant come soon enough.

[Espionage]

guys i think we have a serious problem, here is rafa interview with sky sports



Liverpool boss Rafa Benitez believes a lack of concentration at vital moments cost his side against Manchester United.

Paul Scholes took advantage of some poor defending to steal in for the opening goal and a result was beyond Liverpool when Rio Ferdinand netted a superb second.

Benitez was happy with the overall performance of his side at Old Trafford but says mistakes cost them the chance of taking something from the game.

"In the first half we didn't have a lot of problems and then we conceded a goal. Against a good team like United that is always a big problem," Benitez told Sky Sports.

"When you see the players working as hard as they work, you cannot blame them, if you make a mistake, you make a mistake.

"From my point of view it is a pity when you concede."

Benitez was disappointed with the lack of clear-cut chances his side created on the day.

"We were defending well but we couldn't create a lot of clear chances, if you want to win you need to score," he continued.

Meanwhile, Benitez refused to rule out his sides chances of still challenging for the title.

The Reds are now 11 points behind United at the top, but Benitez is not looking any further ahead than their next league outing against Reading.

He added: "In football you never know. I need to think about the next game. When you are at the top, bottom or middle of the table you need to think about the next three points.

"If you want to have possibilities (of being in the title race) you need to start winning games."







so he thought our players worked had and just a couple of lapses of concentration cost us, he must have watched a different game to me. while he can not see the problems that are in front of him we really dont stand any chance

I thought that we defended quite well.  Thier first goal was well worked and judging on how much of a threat they were in the first half, they didnt deserve a 1-0 lead.  The real problem is that we didnt threaten them at all.  If Rafa thinks that they didnt try hard enough then they would be getting torn into in every training and meeting between now and our next game so I wouldnt read too much into this interview if I were you.  Rafa says the same thing everytime anyway.

[112-1077774096]

guys i think we have a serious problem, here is rafa interview with sky sports



Liverpool boss Rafa Benitez believes a lack of concentration at vital moments cost his side against Manchester United.

Paul Scholes took advantage of some poor defending to steal in for the opening goal and a result was beyond Liverpool when Rio Ferdinand netted a superb second.

Benitez was happy with the overall performance of his side at Old Trafford but says mistakes cost them the chance of taking something from the game.

"In the first half we didn't have a lot of problems and then we conceded a goal. Against a good team like United that is always a big problem," Benitez told Sky Sports.

"When you see the players working as hard as they work, you cannot blame them, if you make a mistake, you make a mistake.

"From my point of view it is a pity when you concede."

Benitez was disappointed with the lack of clear-cut chances his side created on the day.

"We were defending well but we couldn't create a lot of clear chances, if you want to win you need to score," he continued.

Meanwhile, Benitez refused to rule out his sides chances of still challenging for the title.

The Reds are now 11 points behind United at the top, but Benitez is not looking any further ahead than their next league outing against Reading.

He added: "In football you never know. I need to think about the next game. When you are at the top, bottom or middle of the table you need to think about the next three points.

"If you want to have possibilities (of being in the title race) you need to start winning games."







so he thought our players worked had and just a couple of lapses of concentration cost us, he must have watched a different game to me. while he can not see the problems that are in front of him we really dont stand any chance

I thought that we defended quite well.  Thier first goal was well worked and judging on how much of a threat they were in the first half, they didnt deserve a 1-0 lead.  The real problem is that we didnt threaten them at all.  If Rafa thinks that they didnt try hard enough then they would be getting torn into in every training and meeting between now and our next game so I wouldnt read too much into this interview if I were you.  Rafa says the same thing everytime anyway.

my concern is that he believe what he is saying, if he didnt actually beleiev it why is he persisiting with something that doesnt work. it seems he actually believes that we are doing ok

[Rafa D]

I resisted so far as to post in this thread, as it may lose me some friends - but we have got to stop this Rafa bashing right now.

  Yes we have not performed at all this season, we have not had that stand out performance and our lack of goals is worrying. Gerrard doesn't look right, same with Carra for me as well. He is half the player he was last year and he needs to start reading the game better. Gonzo been average along with Pennant and Alonso has been shocking in some games. Even Pepe has been a shadow of himself from last year. But don't you think Rafa knows this?

   I am absolutely gutted at how are season is going, I had high hopes after the last two years but it seems we are fighting a losing battle this year for the league and in all honesty I would take 4th now. However for people to criticise Rafa and suggest he should go is bordering on insanity. I have seen people, suggest he is "tactically inept", "losing the plot" and "turning into Houllier". These are typical knee jerk reactions of a modern day fan. They expect results straight away and if they dont get them, they turn against the team and the manager.

Some of you are sounding ridiculous:

1) To suggest we sell Alonso is absurd. He is quality, he is in very poor form but to sell one of our best players and passers of the ball is downright stupid.

2) Gerrard is not bigger than the club. Someone actually commented that Rafa should go because he is playing Gerrard out of position. However good Stevie G is, he plays where the manager sees fit. If I was Rafa I would play him in the middle with Momo, but as I dont have a european cup and f.a cup winners medal - I will leave that decision to the manager.


  We have been poor, I admit it but the suggestions that Rafa should go are absurd and I am ashamed they are coming from a fellow red. Liverpools motto is "You'll Never Walk Alone" and we should stick by the team through thick and thin.

We never publically criticise our own, Shanks instilled that and Rafa is following the script. He knows whats wrong and he is trying to fix it. Rafa brought us our 5th European Cup and our best ever Premiership performance last year. We were so consistent last year and we were confident going into every game. I know people in todays game cannot live on past glories but this fella saved a sinking ship and the lack of respect for him in this thread is shocking.

  We're Liverpool Football Club, yes, we struggling but it should be all hands on deck trying to get the team out of this mess, not condemning the man and players as failures because they stuggling to get their groove back.

[66-1112520797]

So where are we now? Are we still just unlucky when we play away, is rotation really working?, is it just a tough fixture list that's finding us out? or is there a deeper problem within the ranks?
On the back of a display which was just about as disappointing as any I can remember as a Liverpool fan and with the rumour drums hinting at problems with the captain rumbling in the distance, are we about to reach a tipping point in the direction of the club?
Clearly all is not well with Gerrard, and such is his influence over the team as a whole the effect is a tame acceptance of defeat by our biggest rivals and enemy. That's the bit that irks. It's not the tame way we conceded the goals, nor is the ole's as the Mancs took the p!ss, not even is it that we felt the need to once again re-visit the 4-5-1 to prove conclusively (surely once and for all this time) that it doesn't work for us. No, what it is that really sticks in the craw is the lack of fight, the acceptance that it isn't our day, the willingness to allow the game to drift into the inevitable slow-death of defeat.

I'm a big believer in body language being significant. In those shrugs of the shoulders and sighs of exasperation with your teammates lies the clue to the mood in the ranks. When the players don't believe anymore in the mantra, when they become disillusioned with the tactics and beginn to ring each other on a night to talk about it, they used to call it "losing the dressing room".

Well whether or not the dressing room is lost is one thing, the fact that Gerrard is currently lost beyond help is entirely another. Who knows, it could be due to these cryptic and damaging rumours about his private life, or could it be that he is becoming disillusioned with the way he is being deployed? if it is the latter, then we basically have three choices the way I see it. We either have a chat with him and try and find some accomodation with his misgivings about the tactical approach we are employing (this will probably involve stopping the ridiculous rotations/formation changes and never playing him left hand side again). The other two options are obvious, either he goes or Rafa does.

If it was me I'd go with the first option. It comes to something when you hope the stories about the fellas missus are true as that's the least damaging option.

Is it just me, or have we got a problem here, and if we have what would you do?

I think you possibly may of touched on a significant point Mick. " Losing the dressing room " so to speak, this is an obvious possibilty when the team are in a bad run of form, and of course the Rafa's selections, tactics and personel sometimes may not just have us (fans) perplexed but the players too. I'm not saying the 'dressing room' is lost but the players could be in doubt or question some of Rafa's decisions, and not understanding them could for the want of a better word leave the players lost.
Take Crouch for example, the lad has been playing reasonably well and if I'm not mistaken is our top goalscorer? He netted in the Bordeaux game but yet found himself on the bench in the ManU game. What would you be thinking if you've scored in the game previously but hadnt made the starting line-up the following game? Its inevitable with situations like this heads will drop.
Rafa said the other day and I think it was aimed at Crouch,' Even if you score goals regulary you wont be guarenteed a start'. Personally I couldnt understand that, especially at a time when we're finding goals hard to come by, Rafa chose to spin that off with 'the performance has to come with it'.
The same can be said for the rest of the team, especially the more "rotated ones" like Aurelio, Gonzalez, Fowler, Bellamy, Crouch, Pennant and Hyypia. Not only is it hard to find the cohesion, but what about building up a winning mentality amongst a usual eleven.
Heads will drop in ANY team after a few poor performances and results thats natural, but it must be even harder to rectify the last result with a different selection of players. This is where the rotation debate comes in for now, the chopping and changing and what not. Where Claudio Raneri (the tinkerman) failed and others likewise, Rafa is in the midst of finding that out. He is fully in THE transitional period of his reign as Liverpool manager, he must be trying to convert the rotation element of his game onto his players. They as a team are currently playing as though they havent come to grips with it, and possibly a few will question it along the way, I have no doubt.
All is not well with Steven Gerrard thats apparent, he too may have slight doubts over the mangers decisions. But rather than just worry about Gerrard, the whole team collectively are in trouble. For the short-term we may suffer through Rafa's persistance in tactics, it may eventually work, it may not who knows? I dont think we've really gone through a transitional period under Rafa until now, and I think we're right in the middle of it now, and as a player you may not agree, but its time for them to show their faith in him and support his decisions they have to all pull the same way, if there is any chance to suceed.

[account deleted by request]

my concern is that he believe what he is saying, if he didnt actually beleiev it why is he persisiting with something that doesnt work. it seems he actually believes that we are doing ok

One look at the league table will dissuade him from that idea. He must know how bad we are doing, the question is does he know how to put it right?

I just think he needs to get the players working and fighting to win games, rather than expecting to win because we have the best players. Games in the EPL ARE A BATTLE  not a game of chess.

There is something wrong with the players this season and God only knows what it is. I have heard rumours of training ground fights, Gerrards mrs, Rafa's lost the dressing room, Benitez wanting Gerrard out etc and it all boils down to one thing ,people are just looking for reasons why the players arnt performing.

[account deleted by request]

I resisted so far as to post in this thread, as it may lose me some friends - but we have got to stop this Rafa bashing right now.

  Yes we have not performed at all this season, we have not had that stand out performance and our lack of goals is worrying. Gerrard doesn't look right, same with Carra for me as well. He is half the player he was last year and he needs to start reading the game better. Gonzo been average along with Pennant and Alonso has been shocking in some games. Even Pepe has been a shadow of himself from last year. But don't you think Rafa knows this?

   I am absolutely gutted at how are season is going, I had high hopes after the last two years but it seems we are fighting a losing battle this year for the league and in all honesty I would take 4th now. However for people to criticise Rafa and suggest he should go is bordering on insanity. I have seen people, suggest he is "tactically inept", "losing the plot" and "turning into Houllier". These are typical knee jerk reactions of a modern day fan. They expect results straight away and if they dont get them, they turn against the team and the manager.

Some of you are sounding ridiculous:

1) To suggest we sell Alonso is absurd. He is quality, he is in very poor form but to sell one of our best players and passers of the ball is downright stupid.

2) Gerrard is not bigger than the club. Someone actually commented that Rafa should go because he is playing Gerrard out of position. However good Stevie G is, he plays where the manager sees fit. If I was Rafa I would play him in the middle with Momo, but as I dont have a european cup and f.a cup winners medal - I will leave that decision to the manager.


  We have been poor, I admit it but the suggestions that Rafa should go are absurd and I am ashamed they are coming from a fellow red. Liverpools motto is "You'll Never Walk Alone" and we should stick by the team through thick and thin.

We never publically criticise our own, Shanks instilled that and Rafa is following the script. He knows whats wrong and he is trying to fix it. Rafa brought us our 5th European Cup and our best ever Premiership performance last year. We were so consistent last year and we were confident going into every game. I know people in todays game cannot live on past glories but this fella saved a sinking ship and the lack of respect for him in this thread is shocking.

  We're Liverpool Football Club, yes, we struggling but it should be all hands on deck trying to get the team out of this mess, not condemning the man and players as failures because they stuggling to get their groove back.

Thanks for the great post Rafa - You actually made me smile for the first time since the match. TOP POST MATE 

[66-1112520797]

I have heard rumours of training ground fights

S@int can you elaborate on this a bit, who's apparently involved and are they constant rumours or just the one off?

[account deleted by request]

I have heard rumours of training ground fights

S@int can you elaborate on this a bit, who's apparently involved and are they constant rumours or just the one off?

I read it on RAWK and it didnt say who was involved. Its like all the other rumours,  people are desperate for a reason why we are playing so bad. Im having a look for the post now and if I find it I will PM you the details.

Gerrard and his Mrs rumours on the other hand are rife at the moment. 

[Rafa D]

Saint  -  I know how disapointing yesterday was and I was screaming at some of the players. The lads will know they haven't played well and will expect the criticism. But to suggest Rafa goes or sell players because of a a dreadful start is ridiculous and is much in the mould of Newcastle United.

  On Gerrard's personal problems  - Alex always had a reputation for being a bit of a goer and was a 5 star shagging machine in her younger days so this video would not surprise me.

[Espionage]

guys i think we have a serious problem, here is rafa interview with sky sports



Liverpool boss Rafa Benitez believes a lack of concentration at vital moments cost his side against Manchester United.

Paul Scholes took advantage of some poor defending to steal in for the opening goal and a result was beyond Liverpool when Rio Ferdinand netted a superb second.

Benitez was happy with the overall performance of his side at Old Trafford but says mistakes cost them the chance of taking something from the game.

"In the first half we didn't have a lot of problems and then we conceded a goal. Against a good team like United that is always a big problem," Benitez told Sky Sports.

"When you see the players working as hard as they work, you cannot blame them, if you make a mistake, you make a mistake.

"From my point of view it is a pity when you concede."

Benitez was disappointed with the lack of clear-cut chances his side created on the day.

"We were defending well but we couldn't create a lot of clear chances, if you want to win you need to score," he continued.

Meanwhile, Benitez refused to rule out his sides chances of still challenging for the title.

The Reds are now 11 points behind United at the top, but Benitez is not looking any further ahead than their next league outing against Reading.

He added: "In football you never know. I need to think about the next game. When you are at the top, bottom or middle of the table you need to think about the next three points.

"If you want to have possibilities (of being in the title race) you need to start winning games."







so he thought our players worked had and just a couple of lapses of concentration cost us, he must have watched a different game to me. while he can not see the problems that are in front of him we really dont stand any chance

I thought that we defended quite well.  Thier first goal was well worked and judging on how much of a threat they were in the first half, they didnt deserve a 1-0 lead.  The real problem is that we didnt threaten them at all.  If Rafa thinks that they didnt try hard enough then they would be getting torn into in every training and meeting between now and our next game so I wouldnt read too much into this interview if I were you.  Rafa says the same thing everytime anyway.

my concern is that he believe what he is saying, if he didnt actually beleiev it why is he persisiting with something that doesnt work. it seems he actually believes that we are doing ok

I share your concern.  But I agree with him that we are doing ok, but only in defense.  We just look terrible up front, we are not creating chances and constantly giving away posession.  Last year we were good at scoring first and holding off a team, but we just cant score.

[5 stars]

I thought I'd post this here...

If you look at the results comparison now and this time last season, is not as bad as it looks at first glance.  We have played the four hardest away fixtures already, unfortunately we have not been able to take any points home.

You look at the start to the previous season, we played both Manchester United and Chelsea.  The difference being we played them at home.  We only managed to get a draw against this Manchester United, and received a embarrassing defeat against Chelsea.  When we did play to return fixture we lost on both occasions, and only managed one point out six in the meetings with them. 

So if this season we can beat both of them at home we would take away five more points than it did last season, considering we are only four points behind atm what we were this time last year, it makes for interesting reading.

[account deleted by request]

Saint  -  I know how disapointing yesterday was and I was screaming at some of the players. The lads will know they haven't played well and will expect the criticism. But to suggest Rafa goes or sell players because of a a dreadful start is ridiculous and is much in the mould of Newcastle United.

  On Gerrard's personal problems  - Alex always had a reputation for being a bit of a goer and was a 5 star shagging machine in her younger days so this video would not surprise me.

I think they are just letting off steam mate, I have been trying to ignore them. Everyone is hurting. As soon as we beat Reading and Villa they will be back on board.

The players on the other hand deserve criticism and no doubt are getting it.

I dont know anything about Alex apart from the rumours ,but even if the pictures/video are from before they met(which is what I heard), its still upsetting for the lad.