Liverpool FC Forum

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:46 pm

GYBS wrote:Its not rumours or anything i wanted people to discuss potential summer targets and now it will just get lost in here

1) If you want people to discuss a topic make the opening post a discussion starter rather than a cut-and-paste job from a newspaper article that is full of unabashed transfer speculation

2) Thanks to the nifty "New Posts" button at the top of page, very threads that people are posting in actually get lost

Now, take a breath and try not to let this ruin your day.

by **GYBS** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:52 pm

Ok cheers bob will try again later

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:00 pm

GYBS wrote:Ok cheers bob will try again later

You can try again now if it makes you feel better. I'm just making you aware of the policy we like to follow in here. Unconfirmed transfer speculation goes in the rumour mill, as it ever has. Discussing what our focus should be this coming transfer window and who we might like to see signed to fill weak areas in our squad can go in General Discussion. If it matters to you, edit your initial post to make the thread suitable for General Discussion. Don't get this idea of threads getting lost though--I just assumed everyone else used the "New Posts" button too. :upside:

by **GYBS** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:04 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
GYBS wrote:Ok cheers bob will try again later

You can try again now if it makes you feel better. I'm just making you aware of the policy we like to follow in here. Unconfirmed transfer speculation goes in the rumour mill, as it ever has. Discussing what our focus should be this coming transfer window and who we might like to see signed to fill weak areas in our squad can go in General Discussion. If it matters to you, edit your initial post to make the thread suitable for General Discussion. Don't get this idea of threads getting lost though--I just assumed everyone else used the "New Posts" button too.

I just look in the general discussion mate - but understand what your saying so its all cool

by **The Good Yank** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:44 pm

Look at it this way GYBS, from mid may-September this will be the most popular thread on the board, aside from the Takeover thread.

Departure List:
Dossena- 6 mill
Voronin- 5 mill
Babel- 9 mill
Lucas- 6 mill
Degan- 1 mill
Agger- 10 mill

Total, 37 mill, added to the 30 mill made available is 67million

My wish list is:

Diego probably 20 mill
Young 20 mill
Owen- Free
Johnson 9 mill
Wheater 6 mill
Barry-12 mill

Total, 67 million.

The team would be:

GK: Reina, Cavellieri
RB:Johnson, Arbeloa
CB:Carragher,Skyrtl,Hypia,Wheater
LB:Aurellio,Insua

CM:Gerrard, Alonso, Mascherano,Spearing
RM:Diego,Kuyt,Bennayoun
LM:Barry,Riera

Which leaves Torres Owen and Young up front.

Hand over the prem trophy now. And no worries about having enough domestic players.

by **Ciggy** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 6:49 pm

If Villa dont qualify Gazbaz is available for 6 million not 12 good yank.

by **The Good Yank** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:07 pm

Ciggy wrote:If Villa dont qualify Gazbaz is available for 6 million not 12 good yank.

Even better

Then there's 6 mill to spend on beer and hookers.

by **Sabre** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:56 pm

ConnO'var wrote:
Sabre wrote:Primary targets:

A top striker, and a top right winged player.

Secondary targets:

Right Back, Another left midfielder (Sorry Babel), an attacking midfielder better than Lucas.

Names I'd like to see linked to Liverpool, Eto'o, Henry (Radomir Antic has said that they're very selfish players but they're quality what is what we need upfront), Villa (seems very unlikely), Ribery, Silva, Alves.

Only names of the calibre of the ones mentioned can improve really the squad as it is now. And with 30M we can get one, or two if we're lucky or we get an aged player like Owen or Henry.

Agreed with most on the list.

You've seen more of Reyes since he left the Gunners, Sabre..... what do you think of him?

If you ever watched Reyes live and you fancied him, I wouldn't blame you, the lad has quality enough to make a quality shop mate.

But then, the mind. Ah, the mind. Reyes is an authentic stereotype of the Andalusian guy, always smiling, always ready for a joke, and a bit lazy as a player. He's not the kind of Spaniard that is very exportable, I can imagine him in Arsenal a whole year, and at the end of the year understanding the same English that he understood the fifth day.

I can see Reyes being taken the píss by the Arsenal dressroom, not getting a single word of it, but smiling like this!

It would be easier him to adapt to Liverpool than to Arsenal for obvious reasons, but I'm still not sure about that move.

On the football front, he's not a man for partnerships IMHO, if he's to play upfront, is to play alone, but for that we have Torres who's better. He could be a good striker for a mid-big team, but not for us. Granted, he's versatile, he can play as an attacking left winger, he has the ability to beat mans, he's got pace, he knows to cross, and he's dangerous in the box, I definitely like him more than Babel in the role that Babel is asked in this team (which is different to the one Riera has).

I haven't watched him at Benfica, but I've read that Benfica is happy with him and is ready to pay the 8M necessary to complete the transfer to Atletico -- he's currently on loan.

So, in a nutshell, I like the player, he needs something to boost his career, as he has lost international status and he's not likely to recover it. Would a move to Liverpool be the necessary step to boost his career like it meant for Torres or Reina?

Maybe mate, but it's a gamble. Good player though.

P.S. GYBS: Bob's suggestion is good mate, edit the thread starter with your own thoughts, what are your requirements in your opinion, and I'm pretty sure he'll move it to general discussion.

by **JoeTerp** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:38 pm

I am willing to hold off on saying I want to sell any of Babel or Lucas or Dossena. And I don't see Kuyt going anywhere. The first three mentioned are showing some of their best form for the club of late. The trimming needs to come from the overbloated reserves and loanees that aren't doing anything and wont do anything for the first team. We have 3 goal keepers on loan and 4 at Melwood FFS. And this summer we bought an England international for the academy and he isn't even the academy #1. Currently, we have 15 players out on loan. I am confident we can let go of 9 or 10 (if not all 15) without ever having to worry about regretting the decision.

I think we should let Degen, El Zhar, and Itandge go, but I don't see us collecting much from that. Plus Voronin, Leto, and 7 or 8 younger former reserve players like Lindfield, Antwi, Flynn, Anderson, Hammill and Threlfall. Just based on the shear number of people sold, I think we can recoup somewhere around 11-14 million pounds (the bulk coming from Voronin, Leto, and El Zhar)

by **Cool Hand Luke** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:41 pm

Patrick Berger

by **Sabre** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:07 pm

JoeTerp wrote:I am willing to hold off on saying I want to sell any of Babel or Lucas or Dossena. And I don't see Kuyt going anywhere. The first three mentioned are showing some of their best form for the club of late. The trimming needs to come from the overbloated reserves and loanees that aren't doing anything and wont do anything for the first team. We have 3 goal keepers on loan and 4 at Melwood FFS. And this summer we bought an England international for the academy and he isn't even the academy #1. Currently, we have 15 players out on loan. I am confident we can let go of 9 or 10 (if not all 15) without ever having to worry about regretting the decision.

I think we should let Degen, El Zhar, and Itandge go, but I don't see us collecting much from that. Plus Voronin, Leto, and 7 or 8 younger former reserve players like Lindfield, Antwi, Flynn, Anderson, Hammill and Threlfall. Just based on the shear number of people sold, I think we can recoup somewhere around 11-14 million pounds (the bulk coming from Voronin, Leto, and El Zhar)

Joe I can understand what you say in what you have highlighted, and that's one of the reasons that that the positions I consider primary are not LB, AM nd LW.

I don't like too much to see players coming and going in small periods of time mate. I'm not a massive squad rotationist from one year to another if I see progress

The cases you mention are different cases. Dossena's is the first season and we must not forget that, he's gone from Drossena to be mentioned as an option to Riera, which can be considered progress.

Babel has been here longer. He needs to rise his game if he wants to play for a big club like this, and IMHO so far he hasn't. That's why I consider striker and RW a priority, but certainly the clock is running for Babel, so it's a secondary goal.

As for Lucas, I have doubts. He has spells of good games. He can be a good 4th choice in the middle. I think experience can make him only better. But I think that if we want to be a top top squad we have to be crowded with quality and we don't have a player that is top quality to play behind Torres if we don't put Gerrard especifically there.

About the comment you make about on players on loan, how would be your list of the 6 players that might have a future here? (point the thread if you have already talked about that).

by **ConnO'var** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 1:14 am

Sabre wrote:
ConnO'var wrote:
Sabre wrote:Primary targets:

A top striker, and a top right winged player.

Secondary targets:

Right Back, Another left midfielder (Sorry Babel), an attacking midfielder better than Lucas.

Names I'd like to see linked to Liverpool, Eto'o, Henry (Radomir Antic has said that they're very selfish players but they're quality what is what we need upfront), Villa (seems very unlikely), Ribery, Silva, Alves.

Only names of the calibre of the ones mentioned can improve really the squad as it is now. And with 30M we can get one, or two if we're lucky or we get an aged player like Owen or Henry.

Agreed with most on the list.

You've seen more of Reyes since he left the Gunners, Sabre..... what do you think of him?

If you ever watched Reyes live and you fancied him, I wouldn't blame you, the lad has quality enough to make a quality shop mate.

But then, the mind. Ah, the mind. Reyes is an authentic stereotype of the Andalusian guy, always smiling, always ready for a joke, and a bit lazy as a player. He's not the kind of Spaniard that is very exportable, I can imagine him in Arsenal a whole year, and at the end of the year understanding the same English that he understood the fifth day.

I can see Reyes being taken the píss by the Arsenal dressroom, not getting a single word of it, but smiling like this!

It would be easier him to adapt to Liverpool than to Arsenal for obvious reasons, but I'm still not sure about that move.

On the football front, he's not a man for partnerships IMHO, if he's to play upfront, is to play alone, but for that we have Torres who's better. He could be a good striker for a mid-big team, but not for us. Granted, he's versatile, he can play as an attacking left winger, he has the ability to beat mans, he's got pace, he knows to cross, and he's dangerous in the box, I definitely like him more than Babel in the role that Babel is asked in this team (which is different to the one Riera has).

I haven't watched him at Benfica, but I've read that Benfica is happy with him and is ready to pay the 8M necessary to complete the transfer to Atletico -- he's currently on loan.

So, in a nutshell, I like the player, he needs something to boost his career, as he has lost international status and he's not likely to recover it. Would a move to Liverpool be the necessary step to boost his career like it meant for Torres or Reina?

Maybe mate, but it's a gamble. Good player though.

P.S. GYBS: Bob's suggestion is good mate, edit the thread starter with your own thoughts, what are your requirements in your opinion, and I'm pretty sure he'll move it to general discussion.

I actually did watch him years ago. I was called back to London for a staff meeting at the head office and I was fortunate (maybe unfortunate is a better word) enough to be able to catch the Liverpool game at Highbury.

They ripped us a new @rse that day and as p!ssed off as I was, I couldn't help but notice Reyes' overall play. The lad was immense. He scored a goal and had another disallowed, but what struck me the most was his overall play. Gifted player.

But you are right about his mental state. The fiasco with the homesickness, transfer to Real Madrid etc etc did strike me as odd. I had thought that maybe he was a little too young when he made the move overseas and simply wasn't prepared for the inevitable challanges that represented. A little maturity was all I thought he needed. But from your observations, this may be symptomatic of the man rather than his level of maturity.

In which case, I'd agree...... We shouldn't have to babysit any player.

Pity though..... cause the lad has talent and quality in abundance.... He can fulfill a role down the left, which is something we've needed since Barnesy AND sub in for Torres when required.

by **DanAn** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 2:36 am

Best case scenario for me:
Kuyt- New Contract
Hyppia - Player/Coach contract

Out:
Babel- 9 mill (Too inconsistent)
Agger- 9m (I think he wants to go)
Benayoun - 6m (Too old to be a squad player)
Lucas- 6 mill (Not good enough)
Voronin- 5 mill (Attitude)
Dossena- 5 mill (Hasn't settled)
El Zhar - 3m (23 y/o and not good enough)
Martin:- 3m (Wants to go to Leicester)
Itandje - 1m (No future at the club)
Degen- Free (Too injury prone)
Money raise:47m + 30m = 77m

In:
Silva - 23m (Replaces Benayoun)
CM/AM/LM/LB -Barry 12 m (Replaces Lucas)
Stiker - Keirrison 12m (Replaces Babel)
AM/RW - Buonanotte 15m (Replaces El Zhar/Pennant)
RB - Johnson 9 m (Replaces Degen)
CB - Wheater 6 m (Replaces Hyppia)
Total - 77m

Cover:
Gk's: Riena Cavalieri, Gulácsi
RB's: Johnson, Arbeloa, Darby
CB's: Carragher, Wheater, Skrtel, Hyppia
LB's: Aurelio, Insua, Barry
CM: Alonso, Masherano, Barry, Spearing, Gerrard
RW: Buonanotte, Kuyt, Silva, Gerrard
AM: Gerrard, Silva, Barry, Pacheco
LW: Silva, Riera, Barry, Leto
ST: Torres, Keirrison, Kuyt, N'gog, Nameth

Pipe dream stuff but that would be one hell of a team

by **JoeTerp** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 4:03 am

Sabre wrote:
JoeTerp wrote:I am willing to hold off on saying I want to sell any of Babel or Lucas or Dossena. And I don't see Kuyt going anywhere. The first three mentioned are showing some of their best form for the club of late. The trimming needs to come from the overbloated reserves and loanees that aren't doing anything and wont do anything for the first team. We have 3 goal keepers on loan and 4 at Melwood FFS. And this summer we bought an England international for the academy and he isn't even the academy #1. Currently, we have 15 players out on loan. I am confident we can let go of 9 or 10 (if not all 15) without ever having to worry about regretting the decision.

I think we should let Degen, El Zhar, and Itandge go, but I don't see us collecting much from that. Plus Voronin, Leto, and 7 or 8 younger former reserve players like Lindfield, Antwi, Flynn, Anderson, Hammill and Threlfall. Just based on the shear number of people sold, I think we can recoup somewhere around 11-14 million pounds (the bulk coming from Voronin, Leto, and El Zhar)

Joe I can understand what you say in what you have highlighted, and that's one of the reasons that that the positions I consider primary are not LB, AM nd LW.

I don't like too much to see players coming and going in small periods of time mate. I'm not a massive squad rotationist from one year to another if I see progress

The cases you mention are different cases. Dossena's is the first season and we must not forget that, he's gone from Drossena to be mentioned as an option to Riera, which can be considered progress.

Babel has been here longer. He needs to rise his game if he wants to play for a big club like this, and IMHO so far he hasn't. That's why I consider striker and RW a priority, but certainly the clock is running for Babel, so it's a secondary goal.

As for Lucas, I have doubts. He has spells of good games. He can be a good 4th choice in the middle. I think experience can make him only better. But I think that if we want to be a top top squad we have to be crowded with quality and we don't have a player that is top quality to play behind Torres if we don't put Gerrard especifically there.

About the comment you make about on players on loan, how would be your list of the 6 players that might have a future here? (point the thread if you have already talked about that).

well I want to be clear that for a player like Babel, who certainly has underperformed in his 1.75 seasons at the club, I am just not ready to declare him a lost cause. However, I would be looking for him to show me some improvement in this final stretch of the season.

Rafa likes having the option of playing two left backs on the same flank and Dossena seems to be doing pretty well in the more advanced role, and could settle in even more next season.

Lucas is an enigma for me. He doesn't seem to play like he did in Brazil. Granted youtube clips can be misleading and he was playing against weaker opposition, but still you NEVER see him try and surge forward with the ball and put a stamp on a game. I am not sure if this is instructions, lack of confidence, or he just knows that it wont work against better players in a faster more physical game? From watching Babel's clips you can tell its the same player. He tries to do more or less the same things, it just doesn't work out as often. This is why I am confused on Lucas. Also, if we bring in someone to start regularly up front or someone that is an automatic straight swap cover for Gerrard, than Lucas is 4th choice CM again. I don't see the need to bring in a replacement for him if that is his role.

All this being said, I would say that all three of them have prices that would warrant a sale this summer. I don't think we need to try and shop them around, but if somebody comes calling with money or they start to whine about their role in the team, then I would have a problem selling.

And now as for the loan players:
People with virtually 0% chance of contributing at even a mid table premiership side: Miki Roque, Craig Lindfield, Ryan Flynn, Godwin Antwi, Jordy Brouwer.

Still a low (5%) chance of contributing to a top half in the table first team: David Martin, Robbie Threlfall,

Sliver of hope: Mihaylov (GK), Gulacsi (GK), Paul Anderson (RW), Adam Hammill (LW/RW), Jack Hobbs (CB), Leto

Pros waiting to be sold/released: Voronin, Pennant

CM/AM/LM/LB -Barry 12 m (Replaces Lucas)
Stiker - Keirrison 12m (Replaces Babel)
AM/RW - Buonanotte 15m (Replaces El Zhar/Pennant)

I believe that Barry is entering the last year of his contract, which means he can just buy himself out, so I would expect that would lower his fee, especially if Arsenal finish ahead of Villa.

Keirrison is certainly a player of quality, but he is going to have lots of suitors and his ownership rights are very complicated because he is 80% owned by Traffic. Also, I think it is fair to question how well his game would translate to the Prem. Although I would still love it if we got him. I think he would be the perfect person to bring on for Torres once the game is one to ease him in, or bring in for Mascherano when we are chasing.

Buonanotte I am also a big fan of. I love the little fella, but again, I would question him even more for making it over here

And I don't know what you want to sell Bennayoun for? Over the last 6 weeks or so he has been our best attacking player when Gerrard and Torres were struggling with fitness. He knows the league and has experience. He will be 29 next season, that isn't too old for me. He can play in all kinds of positions and is a real asset to the squad.

by **JoeTerp** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 9:23 am

Its theoretically possible that we could be buying players from almost any position, depending on who is sold and how much cover Rafa wants and what kind of deals are out there. Players that I think we have a natural advantage in the negotiations on are: Players on teams not in the Champions League, Players on teams in smaller European leagues (French, Portuguese, Dutch, Russian, etc.), young English players from clubs outside the premier league or in the relegation zone, experienced English players on teams out of the Champions League, or players on the big European teams (other than United) that are finding it hard for one way or another to see the pitch.

Players on teams not in the Champions League (from Italy, Spain, and Germany) ^ 24/3 ^:
Defense Per Mertesacker (24) Werder Bremen, Naldo (26) Werder Bremen, Heiko Westermann (25) Schalke, Rafinha (23) Schalke, Cicinho (28) Roma, Juan Manuel Vargas (25) Fiorentina, Clemens Fritz (28) Werder Bremen, Gonzalo Castro (21) Leverkusen, Gyorgy Garics (25) Atalanta, Neven Subotic (20) Borussia Dortmund, Lorenzo Di Silvestre (20) Lazio

Midfield David Silva (23) Valencia, Maxi Rodriguez (28) Atletico Madrid, Marek Hamsik (21) Napoli, Renato Augusto (21) Leverkusen, Diego (24) Werder Bremen, Mesut Ozil (20) Werder Bremen, Simao (29) Atletico Madrid, Gokhan Inler (25) Udinese, Marko Marin (20) Borussia Mönchengladbach, Andres Guardado (22) Deportivo La Coruna, Juan Mata (20) Valencia, Joaquin (27) Valencia, Vicente (27) Valencia, Ever Banega (20) Valencia, Arturo Vidal (21) Leverkusen, Ivan Rakitic (21) Schalke, Jakub Blaszcykowski (23) Borussia Dortmund, Angel Lafita (24) Deportivo La Coruna, Jérémy Menez (21) Roma, Zdravko Kuzmanovic (21) Fiorentina, Alessandro Rosina (25) Torino, Ignazio Abate (22) Torino, Pedro Leon (22) Real Valladolid, Tranquillo Barnetta (23) Bayer Leverkusen

Attack David Villa (27) Valencia, Kun Aguero (20) Atletico Madrid, Ezequiel Lavezzi (23) Napoli, Fernando Llorente (24) Bilbao, Mario Gómez (23) Stuttgart, Stevan Jovetic (19) Fiorentina, Goran Pandev (25) Lazio, Alexis Sanchez (20) Udinese, Álvaro Negredo (23) Almeria, Mirko Vucinic (25) Roma, Fabio Quagliarella (26) Udinese, Alberto Gilardino (26) Fiorentina, Jefferson Farfan (24) Schalke, Mario Santana (27) Fiorentina, Hugo Almeida (24) Werder Bremen

Players on teams in smaller European leagues
Defense Yuri Zhirkov (25) CSKA Moscow, Luisão (27) Benfica, Francois Clerc (25) Lyon, Mouhamadou Dabo (22) St. Etienne, Mamadou Sakho (19) PSG,

Midfield Lucho González (28) Porto, Pablo Aimar (29) Benfica, Darijo Srna (26) Shaktar Donetsk, Jérémy Toulalan (25) Lyon, João Moutinho (22) Sporting Lisbon, Arda Turan (22) Galatasaray, Miguel Veloso (22) Sporting Lisbon, Kim Kallstrom (26) Lyon, Cristian Rodríguez (23) Porto, Matias Delgado (26) Besiktas, Fernando Belluschi (25) Olympiacos, Ibrahim Afellay (22) PSV, Ángel Di María (21) Benfica, Sotiris Ninis (18) Panathinaikos, Hatem Ben Arfa, (22) L'OM, Ederson (23) Lyon, Stephane M'Bia (22) Rennes, Luis Suárez (22) Ajax

Attack Karim Benzema (21) Lyon, Lisandro Lopez (26) Porto, José Antonio Reyes (25) Benfica, Fernando Cavenaghi (25) Bordeaux, Mauro Zárate (22) Al-Sadd, Bafe Gomis (23) St. Etienne, Hulk (22) Porto, Eljero Elia (22) FC Twente, Diogo (21) Olympiacos

young English players from clubs outside the premier league or in the relegation zone
Defense David Wheater (22) Boro, Micah Richards (20) Man City*, Michael Mancienne (21) Chelsea*, Joe Mattock (18) Leicester, Kyle Naughton (20) Sheffield United, Mark Beevers (19) Sheffield Wednesday
Midfield Fabian Delph (19) Leeds, Adam Johnson (21) Boro, Joe Ledley (22) Cardiff, Adam Lallana (20) Southampton
Attack Cameron Jerome (22) Birmingham, Sylvan Ebanks-Blake (22) Wolves, Dexter Blackstock (22) QPR, Victor Moses (18) Crystal Palace,

experienced English players on teams not in the Champions League
Defense Glen Johnson (24) Pompey, Steven Taylor (23) Newcastle
Midfield Stewart Downing (24) Boro, Gareth Barry, (28) Aston Villa*, David Bentley (24) Spurs, Aaron Lennon (22) Spurs
Attack Michael Owen (29) Newcastle, Dean Ashton (25) West Ham

experienced Premiership players on teams not in the Champions League
Defense Brede Hangeland (27) Fulham, Vedran Corluka (23) Spurs
Midfield Antonio Valencia (24) Wigan, Niko Kranjcar (24) Pompey, Luka Modric (23) Spurs, Elano (27) City, Morten Gamst Pedersen (27) Blackburn, Valon Behrami (23) West Ham, Jonas Gutierrez (26) Newcastle, Clint Dempsey (26) Fulham
Attack Obafemi Martins (24) Newcastle, Roque Santa Cruz (27) Blackburn, Tuncay (27) Boro, John Utaka (27) Pompey, Kenwyne Jones
(24) Sunderland
players on the big European teams finding it hard to see the pitch.
Defense Christoph Metzelder (28) Real Madrid, Royston Drenthe (21) Real Madrid, Christian Lell (24) Bayern
Midfield Joe Cole (27), Chelsea, Yoann Gourcuff (22) Milan, Ruben De La Red (23) Real Madrid, Fran Mérida (19) Arsenal
Attack Thierry Henry (31) Barca*, Eidur Gudjohnsen (30) Barca, Podolski (23) Bayern,

* means that they don't exactly fit the category at the moment but circumstances could change or we are being linked anyway. Such as Normally I don't see how we would be able to buy a young promising English player off of Chelsea but we have been linked a lot with Mancienne as if it was no big deal.

obviously we can't go after everyone

But I am NOT saying that ALL those players would fit in at the club or are of the quality to get into our first team.

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