Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:09 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:Nobody can deny that he has a brilliant record. However, he is not this "Premiership guarantor" that people make out. He has dropped on in most of his clubs. The best he managed with an unfancied/"poor" club was fifth in a p*ss-poor league where there are 2 or 3 teams basically strolling to the title. (It's pretty much like the Jock Premiership in that respect.)

Moris has the ability to fire players up, but he does not have the mental ability to improve a player's technique, or to analyze and alter games when he doesn't have £40m players to call upon.

At not point can you say that Rafa has spoiled any players worth keeping. Gerrard, Carragher, Reina, Alonso, Torres, Finnan, Arbeloa, Insua, etc, etc, are much better players as a result of his coaching. (And Carra has intimated as much in his autobiography.)
Keane was obviously a bad egg under Rafa's regime, and to lose £1m by selling him to maintain the harmony in the squad isn't the end of the World.

Back on topic, Moris is a good man-manager, but a p*ss-poor coach.

His record is actually much better than I imagined it to be Lando in all honesty. Like you I wrote off the Porto championships as being inevitable, there's only them, Sporting Lisbon and Benfica that I've heard of (Boavista, are they Portuguese?, feck knows). When you start to dig into it though, it was nowhere near so simple. First title in four seasons and improving from third to first is no mean feat, nor is p!ssing it by eleven points.

As for improving players in his posession, I would say that carvallio and Deco are two prime examples. I think he inherited both of those at Porto, and turned the pair into top players. Interestingly, Deco was written off in a previous spell by Graeme Sounness apparently, and sent off on loan somewhere which sounds believeable.

His fifth with the unkown team was in his first season with them, and was a record so it's pretty good I think. The team he built and left behind acutally reached the Cup final the following season without him, but were obviously beaten by a Porto team which by that stage was a formidable outfit.

I have also started to slightly re-evaluate his achievements at Chelsea under closer inspection. He did spend lots of money, but to get that bunch of players to instantly click and gel, losing only one match in his first season in the Premiership and winning 29 (95 points) was a truly staggering achievement.

I know we beat them in the Champions League, and I also know we all felt we were a bit unlucky a couple of times against them in the league. There were a few clear cut victories for them though mixed in with that, and I'm sure they'd point to the Gudjohnsen miss in the dying seconds of the first game, and losing on penalties in the second as an indication that they perhaps were unlucky in the Champions League as well.

It really doesn't matter which way you look at it, his record is absolutely fantastic as you say.

by **Dundalk** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:32 am

What have Chelsea and Kathy Beale Got In Common?
They both fucked Phil and Grant.

What have Chelsea and a girl with an itchy cunt got in common?
They all regret going for that Brazilian.

by **bigmick** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:04 am

Like them mate :laugh:

Just quickly, on the question of improving players, here's what benni Macarthy had to say about Mourinho.

"Mourinho is already in the minds of many, many great clubs.

"He is a trainer with a lot of character and a brilliant man. As a coach he has proved himself at the highest level.

"He has taken Porto to the final on a small budget and with a small squad.

"Imagine him as a trainer with Arsenal, Liverpool, or Chelsea for that matter, where he would have much more of a budget and more big-named players. He would do wonders with those sorts of big teams.

"It's going to be a huge loss for Porto if he goes to a big team.

"He has improved me completely. For any young player he is a brilliant coach.

"He tries to know a player's personality so if you have an off day, he knows how to deal with you."

Some bloke called Silas who played for him at that unknown club which he took into fifth place,

"He's a fantastic coach, the best that I've worked under. He's young, but he has a lot of experience and he knows how to communicate with the players.

"He's got great tactical awareness. He likes his teams to play good football - pass, pass and pass.

"I think his time at Barcelona was critical in his development as a coach, the importance of the philosophy of passing, movement and possession.

"Of course he has also worked under some fantastic managers such as Sir Bobby Robson and Van Gaal.

"He has brought all that he has learnt from his past to this Porto team. Just think how many trophies Porto have already won under him.

"And this with a team that has good players, but not top players, not with big names. That is the key - the work they do as a team and for this Mourinho must take all the credit.

by **bigmick** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:10 am

Been doing a bit of digging on the transfer front at Porto as well, and this idea that he aquired a great team. Apparently they were in disaray when he arrived, and only the aforementioned strong finsih got them into third. He bought Nuno Valente and a striker called Derlei for next to nothing from his previous club (U.D. Leiria), and Maniche from Benfica's B team. Deco was languishing in Porto's reserves at the time and struggling to make an impact, Mourinho saw something in him and promoted him up.

Certainly an interesting record, and an absolute distant shout rather than a far cry from what I and many others had him down for. To win the UEFA Cup and Champions League in successive seasons in that situation is nothing short of astounding.

by **112-1077774096** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:19 am

mick it's like banging your head against a brick wall mate, people are deciding his football credentials based on the fact that they don't like him rather than on what he has achieved

by **bigmick** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:25 am

I think you're probably right mate, but nevertheless since I've started the thread I thought I might as well dig into it a bit. As much as anythign else I've found it interesting from my own point of view. I've come out with similar stuff to what Lando has come out with on this thread many times myself. While you're in the heat of batle with an adversary (not that I personally was but you get my drift) you develop a deep distaste for someone like Mourinho, and you buy into the peddled "facts". Despite that I've kind of always been able to look deeper and at least respect his obvious man management capabilities.

The truth is though that when you dig, the accepted "facts" are miles off. The simple truth of the matter is that he is incredibly successful wherever he has been, even his achievements at Chelsea extraordinary when put into context.

by **Bad Bob** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:55 am

Very interesting career that and I think, in hindsight, it's fair to say that he didn't really get the credit he deserved for the job he did at Chelsea. I thought he was an absolute and utter t.wat at the time--the kind of adversary that you took great pleasure in hating...the real villain of the piece. But that doesn't change the fact that the man knows how to get the best out of the talent at his disposal and post up results. Undoubtedly a good manager.

by **bigmick** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:33 am

Some Mourinho quotes.

"I feel I have a lot to learn from English football and I am completely open to good influences in my way of thinking football. But I also have things to give them".

"I think the best place to work in football is England."

" I was nine or 10 years old and my father was sacked on Christmas Day. He was a manager, the results had not been good, he lost a game on December 22 or 23. On Christmas Day, the telephone rang and he was sacked in the middle of our lunch."

"The team is completely close. Anything you say outside, there is no chance it will go inside. So the team is really strong and compact. We know what we want and how to achieve it on the pitch."

"When I go to the press conference before the game, in my mind the game has already started."

"You see how Spanish, Italians, Portuguese play football. I don't say they are perfect, I say English football has a few things to learn from them in the same way they have a lot of things to learn from English football."

"I don't say we are a defensive team. I say we are a strong team in defensive terms, but at the same time lacking sufficient fluidity in attack because that will take time to come."

The last quote was when he first arrived at Chelsea, within the first couple of months. While he was getting the hang of things though, they won match after match after match, finishing on 95 points and a mile clear of their nearest challengers. While he was getting the hang of things they improved from the previous season where they came second under Ranieri by 16 points. They eventually amassed a total which was five points better tahn Arsenal's "invinvible team" had managed the season before.

by **loopyliverpool** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:15 am

I think he's undoubtedly a fantastic manager, I don't know what the issue is! A part from a brilliant 'winning' record on the pitch he is an entertainer in the rather unexceptional world of manager's interviews! He also draws women in to watch the game, which in our house is no mean feat. He won two champinoships at Chelsea and was very close to getting through to the Champions League final against us, those games could have gone either way. If Rafa suddenly decided to leave us (and lets remember he hasn't signed a new contract citing the same reasons why he left Valencia ie.control of transfers) and take up the annual vacancy at Real, his childhood club, Mourinho would be my choice to take the helm, barring of course the availability of Wenger!!

by **Roger Red Hat** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:19 am

fk wenger. sad day when he takes over. I really dont rate him

by **loopyliverpool** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:29 am

Lee J wrote:fk wenger. sad day when he takes over. I really dont rate him

He's having a bad one this season but for the way they have played since he's taken over has been joyful on the eye, and all done on a relatively modest budget! It was said in jest, he will probably only leave Arsenel to take the national job in France.

by **bigmick** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:03 pm

I know it's a bit of a drag to do so, but I urge anyone who is unsure of Mourinho's abilities or thinks that he has bought his way to success wherever he has been to trawl through the thread. There really is some interesting stuff obviously interspersed with my usual b0ll0cks. If you don't come out thinking that he is a much better manager than you realised I'd be amazed. His record is in parts absolutely astounding.

by **GYBS** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:14 pm

Like has been mentioned by a few people - maureen had two big massive helping hands - Money and Inheriting Talented players . Without those he would not be anywhere near as successful as he was .

by **bigmick** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:24 pm

GYBS wrote:Like has been mentioned by a few people - maureen had two big massive helping hands - Money and Inheriting Talented players . Without those he would not be anywhere near as successful as he was .

That must mean you haven't read the thread mate. I know it's a pain, but unless you do you will continue to make silly statements like that one.

It's absolutely understandable to not like the bloke, but to put all his success down to money or luck with taking over top players is simply miles off when you look at it. If you read from about page four onwards, you'll see what I mean. In the meantime, could I request that we don't smother the thread with one liners, I've put a wee bit of time into the research.

by **GYBS** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:41 pm

Mick i have read the thread and seen his success at a small club and at porto so dont need to go over it again . At Porton he had a lot of very talented players inculding deco carvhalo mc carthy etc etc and at chelsea there were already a lot of high quality players there plus he was able to spend millions on 20 mil pound players . and then to inter where he was able to walk into a already title winning team and was able to buy again . so Yes he has been helped out a lot with money and players being there already . And as for one liners surely thats up to the posters what they post - not everyone needs to write 28 paragraphs or a novel to get their point accross.

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