Liverpool FC Forum

by **Lando_Griffin** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:45 pm

bigmick wrote:I don't think there are too may similarities to the 4-5-1 which Mourinho played and the one which Valencia employed. Mourinho's version was built for English football, with Drogba just about as typical an English centre forward who's not English as you could get. They were more than willing to miss the midfield out and hit from either fullback channel, which is not a method Valencia went for. Chelsea got much criticism (some of it deserved) for being overly 'route-oneish', and at their best were a powerhouse of a team.

They differed from us right now mainly in the sense that their wide players were far better. I've absolutely no doubts (and I don't think you would disagree Lando even) that if you stuck Robben and Duff of that time into our team, we'd win the Premiership with our current team, provided Torres or Gerrard didn't get injured.

Ultimately though, who thought of a system first in a different country is something you could go on about all day. The 4-5-1 which he used over here was different at the time he used it, unique in England and to be honest although teams have copied it over here nobody has come close to matching that units efficiency. They were rock solid at the back and ruthlessly efficient going forward, without ever really playing the flowing football of the mancs or Arsenal at their best. In his first season there, they lost one match and won 29. Tactical muppetry doesn'tallow any manager to do that. They did many times beat us along the way as well. Yes we ended up on the right side of two extremely tight Champions League semi's, but overall we lost many more against them than we won that's for sure.

Two key words can resolve the reasons why Moris succeeded:

Money and inheritance.

Without these two, Moris would not have only lost 1 and won 29 in his first season IMO.

Can give me an example of his ability at a team where he did not have distinct financial or inherited advantages over the opposition? Look at Avram Grant - a nobody in footballing terms. Even HE managed to get a shadow of the Moris team to the CL final (and 1" from winning it) - something which the Portugeezer couldn't.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:50 pm

bigmick wrote:Well I' sorry you are disappointed in a Liverpool fan looking at Jose Mourinhos' record. I've said a couple of times in the thread already that I don't think he will end up at anfield as I think Rafa will get a new contract. I've also said a couple of times int he thread, IF WE WERE LOOKING FOR A NEW MANAGER IN THE SUMMER ETC ETC. I essntially started the thread because you didn't put him in your daft poll (and I'm the one being disrespectful ). I thought I'd have a wee look into his record, beyond the "he's a c..." angle and have a proper look at where he's coming from. I've criticised him myself heavily in the past, I've been extremely unconvinced by the hype, so I thought I'd have a little look and set out his record so people could judge.

Now understandably, some people can't get past the feeling that he's a c... which is fine. I'm simply looking at his record and trying to take that aspect out of it. I've started the thread in Premiership, General discussion so it's not like I'm infecting the Liverpool part of the forum. I can't really see what the problem is myself but there you go.

But it doesn't matter how long you look at the stats, Mick. He will always be a c*nt.

You can't change people - it doesn't work that way. You either take them warts and all, or you don't.

No middle ground.

by **Sabre** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:53 pm

Can give me an example of his ability at a team where he did not have distinct financial or inherited advantages over the opposition?

F.C. Barcelona. He was Robson's translator, he translated from to cráp english, to cráp Spanish.

Some say that a massive chip on the shoulder was grown about England in Mourinho, it was common knowledge that Robson didn't have much time for him.

So yes, we all remember El Traductor here, so there you have some notes of his ability in other clubs, Lando.

Those were the days

by **bigmick** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:10 pm

By the way, I checked out his record pre Porto. Mourinho's managerial career began with a brief spell at Benfica in 2000. His reign lasted only 9 games by alla ccounts, despite the team starting very well. Benfica elected a new president (Manuel Viaharinho) and he spoke of bringing in a new coach (ex Benfica player Toni). On the back of a famous 3-0 victory over Sporting Lisbon, Mourinho asked for a contract extension to solidify his position and put the rumours to bed. Viaharinho refused, and Mourinho resigned instantly.

The president was later to rue his decision "put me back then and I would do exactly the opposite". "Personality and pride cannot be put before the institution we serve".

Apparently having worked under Bobby Robson, just after Morinho began at Benfica Robson offered him the assistant managers job at Newcastle and promised him that within two years he would retire, leaving Mourinho in charge. His great friend though didn't believe Robson would leave the job he loved, so he stayed at Benfica.

Havinf resigned from Benfica, Mourinho went to a club called U.D. Leiria (no I haven't either). He was there only a year, but took them to fifth place in the Portugguese league, which remains the highest finish in the clubs history.

This got him recognised in Portugal, and in January 2002 he joined Porto mid season, taking over from Octavio Machado. By all accounts the club were in chaos and in danger of their lowest ever league position. He led them to third place that season with a strong finish, finishing with a run of won 11, drawn 2 and lost 2. He promised they would be Champions the following season to much shock and disbelief. He recalled Jorge Costa from loan at Charlton, he took Baia on loan from Barcelona, and recognised within his team some players who should be achieveing more than they were. Ricardo Carvallio and Deco became prominent players, as did Helda Postiga.

In the following season 2002/03 Porto won the league title by 11 points. It was their first league title win for four seasons. They won 27 matches, drew 5 and lost 2. They achived 86 points in the season whcih was a Portuguese record. In the same season they won the Portuguese Cup, and also the UEFA Cup beating Celtic in the final.

In the following season, Porto had a perfect Home record and won the title with five weeks to spare, despite being heavily involved in the Champions League. they lost the super cup to a single goal by Shevchenko, and they also lost the Portugguese Cup final to Benfica. Two weeks later however they defeated Monaco 3-0 to win the win the Champions League. On the way to the final they had beaten Manchester United, Lyon and Deportivo. They lost one match in the whole of the group stages, against real Madrid.

At this time, other European clubs began to sit up and take notice. Morinho was linked with various jobs, Real Madrid, Chelsea and Liverpool. At the time Mourinho was quoted as saying "Liverpool are a team that interests everyone and Chelsea does not interest me so much because it is a new project with lots of money invested in it. I think it is a project which, if the club fail to win everything, then Abramovich could retire and take the money out of the club. It's an uncertain project. It is interesting for a coach to have the money to hire quality players but you never know if a project like this will bring success."

by **GYBS** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:14 pm

Well his actions didnt really back up his words there did it as he went to the job that supposedly didnt interest him . And turned us down by all reports .

by **bigmick** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:16 pm

Now I hope people understand that once again this is "premiership general discussion" and I'm simply doing a bit of digging into the fella's record. My stats are always wrong, so these might be wrong too, but I offer them out there to be shot at. I do remember when Robson first came back to England him talking in glowing terms about Mourinho, so I can fairly safely say Sabre's thing about him hvaing no time for him is a mistake. .

Anyway, my analysis is there and people can pick holes in it and the stuff no bother. His record though is surprisingly good when you look at it, I think that at least is pretty much beyond dispute.

by **Sabre** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:22 pm

I will always take the píss of him because I dislike the man. It's like starting to love Rooney, I can't, because I hate him too much.

His record, in all seriousness has been excellent and he has taught me a couple of lessons since he has arrived to Italy, I'll give him that.

But I don't want him because I don't like him, because somehow I don't see him with the values of Liverpool, for personal reasons mostly... and the fact that I'm happy with Rafa's progress at this club. Progress that is admitted by Alonso, Carra, Torres and any player you ask, and that is confirmed by the fact Benitez is wanted by top clubs, Madrid wouldn't hesitate to kick Ramos' back any night to bring Rafa.

I know that this is topic drifting, but Rafa's defence almost came naturally to my post as I feel like I'm writing in the "Why Mourinho would be our ideal manager" thread.

so I can fairly safely say Sabre's thing about him hvaing no time for him is a mistake. .

I wrote that for a laugh, if you want a serious response to that it's not a mistake, but the common talk, the common banter that was said back then in any taberna, in any bar. Kind of the things you say about Neville, or any other archenemy...

As you know those "street stories" usually are not 100% loyal to reality, nonetheless are told and said, and that's what I did.

by **bigmick** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:28 pm

No need to defend Rafa here Sabes, nobody is talking about him or they shouldn't be anyway. This is Premiership general discussion and I'm simply setting out Mourinho's record for analysis.

by **Sabre** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:30 pm

His record can be summed up as excellent, I must admit then, if that's what we're discussing here.

by **GYBS** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:34 pm

As soon as you started the thread comparisons would be mentioned and your basically screaming out that you want him to replace Rafa so off course people will defend rafa against him . Taggert has an even better record but would anyone want him at liverpool ?

by **Bad Bob** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:35 pm

Sabre wrote:I will always take the píss of him because I dislike the man. It's like starting to love Rooney, I can't, because I hate him too much.

I used to know what you mean, mate, but I've been watching a lot of Setanta Sports over the last year and I get a weekly dose of these guys:

Modeled on the real Mourinho, Sven and Rooney, to be sure, but infinitely more likeable. After a few months of watching the puppet 'Special One' doing his thing, you start to forget what a tw.at the real Mourinho is! :nod

"Shut up Voyeur!"

by **Zidane** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:54 pm

I think he'd fit in quite well and he is a good manager. Our owners are punks, the only reason Rafa doesn't get along with them is because Rafa keeps to himself too much and is too quiet/timid etc. Rafa looks like he just minds his business even though he hates how a lot of things are done at the club. He talks through the media and all that but behind closed doors I would assume Rafa plays nice with ownership. He's not the confrontational type at all I think Mourinho would get his way more often than not here with our owners and his attitude is an attitude that would serve us well imo.

That said I hope Rafa can win the league and or the CL this year, if he doesn't I don't think he should be here much longer. Maybe one more year but that is being generous honestly (assuming we don't win anything this year) so I dunno.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:54 pm

bigmick wrote:By the way, I checked out his record pre Porto. Mourinho's managerial career began with a brief spell at Benfica in 2000. His reign lasted only 9 games by alla ccounts, despite the team starting very well. Benfica elected a new president (Manuel Viaharinho) and he spoke of bringing in a new coach (ex Benfica player Toni). On the back of a famous 3-0 victory over Sporting Lisbon, Mourinho asked for a contract extension to solidify his position and put the rumours to bed. Viaharinho refused, and Mourinho resigned instantly.

The president was later to rue his decision "put me back then and I would do exactly the opposite". "Personality and pride cannot be put before the institution we serve".

Apparently having worked under Bobby Robson, just after Morinho began at Benfica Robson offered him the assistant managers job at Newcastle and promised him that within two years he would retire, leaving Mourinho in charge. His great friend though didn't believe Robson would leave the job he loved, so he stayed at Benfica.

Havinf resigned from Benfica, Mourinho went to a club called U.D. Leiria (no I haven't either). He was there only a year, but took them to fifth place in the Portugguese league, which remains the highest finish in the clubs history.

This got him recognised in Portugal, and in January 2002 he joined Porto, taking over from Octavio Machado. He led the team to third place that season with a strong finish, finishing with a run of won 11, drawn 2 and lost 2. He promised he would be Champions the following season. He recalled Jorge Costa from loan at Charlton, he took Baia on loan from Barcelona, and recognised within his team some players who should be achieveing more than they were. Ricardo Carvallio and Deco became prominent players, as did Helda Postiga.

In the following season 2002/03 Porto won the league title by 11 points. It was their first league title win for four seasons. They won 27 matches, drew 5 and lost 2. They achived 86 points in the season whcih was a Portuguese record. In the same season they won the Portuguese Cup, and also the UEFA Cup beating Celtic in the final.

In the following season, Porto had a perfect Home record and won the title with five weeks to spare, despite being heavily involved in the Champions League. they lost the super cup to a single goal by Shevchenko, and they also lost the Portugguese Cup final to Benfica. Two weeks later however they defeated Monaco 3-0 to win the win the Champions League. On the way to the final they had beaten Manchester United, Lyon and Deportivo. They lost one match in the whole of the group stages, against real Madrid.

At this time, other European clubs began to sit up and take notice. Morinho was linked with various jobs, Real Madrid, Chelsea and Liverpool. At the time Mourinho was quoted as saying "Liverpool are a team that interests everyone and Chelsea does not interest me so much because it is a new project with lots of money invested in it. I think it is a project which, if the club fail to win everything, then Abramovich could retire and take the money out of the club. It's an uncertain project. It is interesting for a coach to have the money to hire quality players but you never know if a project like this will bring success."

Nobody can deny that he has a brilliant record. However, he is not this "Premiership guarantor" that people make out. He has dropped on in most of his clubs. The best he managed with an unfancied/"poor" club was fifth in a p*ss-poor league where there are 2 or 3 teams basically strolling to the title. (It's pretty much like the Jock Premiership in that respect.)

Moris has the ability to fire players up, but he does not have the mental ability to improve a player's technique, or to analyze and alter games when he doesn't have £40m players to call upon.

At not point can you say that Rafa has spoiled any players worth keeping. Gerrard, Carragher, Reina, Alonso, Torres, Finnan, Arbeloa, Insua, etc, etc, are much better players as a result of his coaching. (And Carra has intimated as much in his autobiography.)
Keane was obviously a bad egg under Rafa's regime, and to lose £1m by selling him to maintain the harmony in the squad isn't the end of the World.

Back on topic, Moris is a good man-manager, but a p*ss-poor coach.

by **bigmick** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:58 pm

GYBS wrote:As soon as you started the thread comparisons would be mentioned and your basically screaming out that you want him to replace Rafa so off course people will defend rafa against him . Taggert has an even better record but would anyone want him at liverpool ?

Who's making comparisons? This is simply a thread about Mourinho and as the title suggests, discussing whether he is a miracle or a myth (or in between which is the more likely). I don't think I've mentioned Rafa once off my own bat, although I may have tried to answer a couple of points Lando raised.

It really is typical of the ultra defensive nature of a faction of the forum that you can't have a discussion, in the proper place, without people seeking to smother all debate.

As for "Taggart", yes he does have an excellent record, particularly when you include his Aberdeen exploits which were remarkable. If you wish to start a thread on him, go for your life.

This one though, is about Mourinho. It's not about Rafa, and it's not about Ferguson.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:00 pm

bigmick wrote:
GYBS wrote:As soon as you started the thread comparisons would be mentioned and your basically screaming out that you want him to replace Rafa so off course people will defend rafa against him . Taggert has an even better record but would anyone want him at liverpool ?

Who's making comparisons? This is simply a thread about Mourinho and as the title suggests, discuyssing whether he is a miracle or a myth (or in between which is the more likely). I don't think I've mentioned Rafa once off my own bat, although I may have tried to answer a couple of points Lando raised.

It really is typical of the ultra defensive nature of a faction of the forum that you can't have a discussion, in the proper place, without people seeking to smother all debate.

As for "Taggart", yes he does have an excellent record, particularly when you include his Aberdeen exploits which were remarkable. If you wish to start a thread on him, go for your life.

This one though, is about Mourinho. It's not about Rafa, and it's not about Ferguson.

OK. Moris is a tw*t who has either bought or had his successes bought for him.

There's no more to it IMO.

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