Liverpool FC Forum

by **Lando_Griffin** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:08 am

bigmick wrote:We've spent more money net than Man Utd in the same period Dav. Not sure of the gross, but it'll be close. Where's S@int when you need him

Yes, and Man Utd had a team of underachievers the red-nosed one had to replace, didn't they?

Div. :no

by **Lando_Griffin** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:17 am

aCe' wrote:our best players:

Gerrard (academy)
Torres (26.5 mill, under American owners)
Mascherano (18 or so mill, under American owners)
Aquilani (20mill, under American owners)
Johnson (18mill, under American owners)

Thats 80something mill spent on 4 players while under our currents owners by Rafa... Add to that players like Babel (11.5mill), Dossena (7mill) and Riera (8mill) and you realize that spending hasnt really been our biggest problem in recent times regardless of the owners and the clubs financial state...

Should Rafa have done better with the money ? probably....

Regardless, i think its still too early in the season to be talking about sacking the manager or anything like that... our main problem atm is managing what we got... its where Benitez has failed so far this season, and its where he needs to improve much, and quick.

Rafa has also recouped £102.1m in the same period.

That's excluding Champions' League money and league positioning prize money.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:19 am

bigmick wrote:People are obsessed with the money angle all of a sudden, whereas last season they hardly mentioned it. Lets look at some facts. I'm going to quote some transfer values here, lets not get bogged down in a million quid either way.

We finished four points behind the Mancs last season, in second place in the Premiership (fact). From there, this happened:

We spent 38 million quid on Johnson, Aquilani and the Greek bloke.
Man Utd spent 18 million quid on Valencia.
Arsenal spent 10 million quid on that Vermeelan bloke.
Chelsea spent 18 million quid on Zhirkov.

Conclusion: We spent around 20 million quid gross more than any other team in the big four since we finsihed four points behind man Utd in second place.

How about NET spend.

Well we sold Alonso for 30 million, and Arbeloa for 3 million, so we SPENT about 5 million quid.
Man Utd sold Ronaldo for 80 million, and lose Carlos Tevez on a free (replaced by Michael Owen on a free), so they NET GAINED around 62 million quid.
Arsenal sold adebayor for 25 million quid, and sold Kolo Toure for 12 million quid, so they NET GAINED around 27 million quid.
Chelsea didn't sell anyone, so they SPENT 18 million quid.

Conclusion: In terms of net SPEND, we were 67 million pounds better off than Man Utd, 32 million pounds better off than Arsenal, and 13 million pounds worse off than Chelsea.

Now, we finished four points behind the Mancs last season remember. Is a 67 million pound turnaround enough to claw it back? We'll have to see obviously. We obviously finished ahead of Arsenal last season, and have spent net around 27 million quid more than them. We ought really to finish well ahead once again if money is the be all and end all right? We'll have to see.

Money truly is the route of all evil when you really look at it.

The difference is Fergie knows he can spend that outstanding money (and much, much more) when required. Rafa can't.

Not to mention, of course, the fact that they have still got 2 £30m+ players up front and God knows how many more throughout the team.

They can spend as much as they need to whenever they need to. We can't.

by **bigmick** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:27 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:
bigmick wrote:We've spent more money net than Man Utd in the same period Dav. Not sure of the gross, but it'll be close. Where's S@int when you need him

Yes, and Man Utd had a team of underachievers the red-nosed one had to replace, didn't they?

Div.

Why oh why do you have to resort to the silly name calling, and then doubly make yourself look silly by doing it while you're talking nonsense.

In the season before Rafa arrived at Anfield, Man Utd finished 3rd in the league, 15 points behind the leaders . To jog your memory it was the season in which Arsenal went unbeaten.

This idea that man Utd had a team of World beaters is utter nonsense. They didn't win the title for the next two seasons either, as Chelsea won it. Ferguson had to build his team just the same as everyone else (well everyone except Arsenal who had to take a team apart first, THEN build it).

It wouldn't be so bad that you are invariably hopelessly wrong, any normal person would leave the "ah feck me sorry mate I didn't realise that was the case" option open. You don't do that though, with the inevitable and increasingly tedious little bits of abuse.

There's only one "div" in this discussion fella.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:28 am

bigmick wrote:I can't be bothered to crunch the numbers and do the research (come back S@int, we miss you mate) but to ignore the fact that we have spent more than the Mancs over the last six seasons and still keep bleating about it, is getting sooooooo tedious. Ferguson had a much stronger squad etc etc, we finished ahead of them a season or two before Rafa came. We won the Champions League with the majority of the squad which was left to Rafa.

I'm not disputing that we needed a rebuild, but come on lets be serious here. Arsenal have rebuilt THE WHOLE TEAM, THE WHOLE SQUAD INFACT AND SPENT LESS MONEY THAN US.

Lets stop playing these silly games with excuses. we finished second and within four points of the mancs last season. They sold the World player of the year, lost Carlos Tevez and replaced them with Antonio Valencia and Michael Owen. Under those circumstances, is there a Liverpool fan anywhere who hand on heart wouldn't have expected us to have a really good chance of making up a four point gap?

By all means lets not overreact, I'm not saying we should sack the manager because we shouldn't, but a little sensibility and objectivity wouldn't go amiss either.

AND ARSENAL HAVE YET TO FINISH ABOVE US SINCE 2004!

What's that about objectivity, old boy?

by **Lando_Griffin** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:30 am

bigmick wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:Well, if we accept that Rafa ought to have had a few quid extra to spend in the summer window - and you used to, Mick -

I still do accept that he ought to have been given more money mate. I've always said the owners are a pair of c...s and getting rid of them is much more the prioroty that getting rid of any manager will be, however inept he is.

But in all seriousness, we cannot keep on with this teflon style of arguement where Rafa is concerned. His performance as a manager so far this season (if you take into account the Summer as well) has been absolutely awful. If you look at the fact we didn't buy striker cover, we bought a midfielder who was crocked for the first three months of the season, we tried and abjectly failed to cover the loss of Alonso with Lucas, we found a solution to the problem then reverted back even though we knew it wasn't working, the pre season "campaign", the list goes on and on.

If last seasons league finish wasn't a complete and utter fluke, then our performance this season so far has been a disgrace. None of this "well yes Rafa is partially to blame, nobody can say he's not a hand in it" b0ll0cks either. We are behind Sunderland FFS, just ahead of Stoke and Burnley. If we continue as we are we'll be lucky to finish top ten.

It's an over reaction IMHO to say we should sack the manager. It's not an overreaction however to say his performace so far this season has been a joke. For my part, I find these endless attempts to either discredit the person making the comments (not by you but by many) or to abuse them, or to put excuse after excuse after ecuse in the way of sensible analysis just gets tedious.

We've NET spent 67 million quid more than the Mancs since last Summer (when we finished four points behind them), they've lost the best player in the World, they've lost Carlos Tevez, but that doesn't matter because they were a better team than us six seasons ago

Have a word mate, it's getting daft.

Grow up, you bitter c*nt.

Man Utd are the reigning champions, you stupid boy.

by **bigmick** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:32 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:AND ARSENAL HAVE YET TO FINISH ABOVE US SINCE 2004!

What's that about objectivity, old boy?

And also very similar to us, they haven't won a trophy in some time either (infact in their case I think it's four seasons rather than three).

Thier spending though (since everyone is obsessed with spending for some reason) is dwarfed by ours, and I have a feeling that over the next 18 months or so they have a maturing bunch of players who may well do something. So might we of course, it'll be interesting to see.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:37 am

bigmick wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
bigmick wrote:We've spent more money net than Man Utd in the same period Dav. Not sure of the gross, but it'll be close. Where's S@int when you need him

Yes, and Man Utd had a team of underachievers the red-nosed one had to replace, didn't they?

Div.

Why oh why do you have to resort to the silly name calling, and then doubly make yourself look silly by doing it while you're talking nonsense.

In the season before Rafa arrived at Anfield, Man Utd finished 3rd in the league, 15 points behind the leaders . To jog your memory it was the season in which Arsenal went unbeaten.

This idea that man Utd had a team of World beaters is utter nonsense. They didn't win the title for the next two seasons either, as Chelsea won it. Ferguson had to build his team just the same as everyone else (well everyone except Arsenal who had to take a team apart first, THEN build it).

It wouldn't be so bad that you are invariably hopelessly wrong, any normal person would leave the "ah feck me sorry mate I didn't realise that was the case" option open. You don't do that though, with the inevitable and increasingly tedious little bits of abuse.

There's only one "div" in this discussion fella.

*Sighs at an old man losing his marbles.

They were going through their rebuilding period but had spent the vast majority there and then. Remember £30m on an 18 year old Rooney?

All they did after that was add Carrick and a few more £20m players to an already very capable side.

You still don't get it, do you?

Chelsea won the league because they spent a shed load of money in a short period of time.

Money wins.

Man Utd added the odd £30m player per season. Chelsea stopped spending ridiculously.

Money wins.

Grow up Mick - Rafa is here to stay and you're going to have to get used to it.

by **bigmick** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:47 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:Grow up, you bitter c*nt.

I should have known better than even attempt a sensible debate.

BTW I don't dispute your last point about Rafa being here to stay, nor "the fact that I'll have to get used to it'. Infact I already have :laugh:

.

Enuff though, like I say I should have known better.

by **bigmick** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:55 am

Against my better judgement though, having finished third and 15 points behind the Champions in the season before Rafa arrived, in Rafa's first season Man Utd finished third and 17 points behind the eventual Champions . I'm afraid the argument simply doesn't hold up.

by **bigmick** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:59 am

In Rafa's second season, Man Utd improved into second, they were 9 points behind the eventual Champions . We were third, at that stage only one point behind. Once again, this idea that Fergusons squad was already of World beating standard when Rafa arrived simply doesn't hold up.

by **bigmick** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:03 am

The following season (Rafa's third) man Utd won their first title for four seasons. We, who had been 1 point behind them the previous campaign, found ourselves in joint third spot with Arsenal, twenty one points behind the Mancs (oops). While they had progressed and picked up six more points than the previous season, we had gone backwards and gained fourteen fewer points. I'm afraid your arguement doesn't hold up.

by **bigmick** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:07 am

The following season (Rafa's fourth) the Mancs were champions again. We finshed fourth BEHIND ARSENAL (don't you hate it when facts get in the way of total bullsh!t). Arsenal finsihed 7 points ahead of us. We did improve though from our awful previous season to gain 76 points, eight more than the previous campaign, although still six less than we had in our good season. We finished fourth, eleven points behind the Mancs. I'm afraid your argument doesn't hold up.

by **bigmick** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:10 am

Last season (Rafa's fifth) we had a stormer. True, we didn't actually win anything (for the third season in a row) but we did get 86 points which was an excellent achievement. The mancs won it of course with 90, but it was a top effort by the manager and the players.

And so here we are where we are today. they got rid of talent worth in excess of 100 million quid, we got rid of talent worth 33 million quid. They spent 18 million quid, we spent 39 million quid. Will we catch up those four points? We'll see.

by **bigmick** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:14 am

In fact, I think the thread should be renamed. It should be titled "It's time to stop chatting sh!t".

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