Liverpool FC Forum

[banana]

I find it funny people are saying Rafa has to spend big to get quality, but does that mean players like Benayoun £5m, Arbeloa £2.6m, Reina £6m, Alonso £10.5m were pants?!?! Point being you can get quality, or at least better than Babel £11.5m, Lucas £5m, Dossena £7m without getting mugged several times a season.

Spending outside your means was doomed to fail, the problem is Rafa should have built up the squad to a standard where we could add better players for the kind of money he spends, but he added players liek N'Gog, Lucas, Degen, Voronin, Josemi, Kromkamp, Plessis, Pennant, Kyrgiakos, Cavalieri, Dossena, and changed the strikers every other summer until he managed to get Torres at a reasonable price ie he pulled out and threw back lots of minnows until he landed the big'un. Maybe the truth is he takes lots of shots at fixing a position and cover, but more than a good manager would. What next? Buy Warnock back for £17.5m.........................!?!?!?

On the one hand the signings are much maligned, but yet some refuse to point the finger at the man who signed them and cite tight budgets as an excuse, even though the squad cost well over £100m. Well we can always use the excuse of someone else having more money than us, perhaps the truth is other managers MANAGE THEIR BUDGET better than Rafa ie if they have lots they spend freely and sign top players, if they have little then they find better bargains than Rafa usually does

Unfortunately Ozwat you're wrong. May I remind you about your statements last year when you advocating selling Alonso;

Owzat:
*Alonso Post

He is as wrong about Benitez as he was about Alonso. That is the link.  ---What?

I fear that Liverpool will fall apart. It is time to attack the root causes of the problem. That is not the manager. He built a team well capable of winning everything. That team was basically built BEFORE the americans came along. The improvement last year was only because the team had been playing together for more time. We have not made any significant addition to the team for 24 months. That is a long time.

There will be no quick fix to this problem. Liverpool is buried in American debt and will be so for a long period of time.

Seriously, let go of the grudge.  You seem like a sad person with these arguments from a while ago, who the feck cares if he was wrong about Alonso?  He is arguing about stats and numbers, and you bring a pretty irrelevant issue, and a pretty lame counter argument.

Everyone knows the Americans are a major cause of the problem (in fact if they never came we could of won the league by now, but happens), but no one can say after 5 years, the 5 year plan has went well.  The spine of the team was broken last season; with the sale of Alonso.  Although it was down to player choice, Rafa did no help with man management, and we've seen that as a problem in the past.  The way I see it is, with the amount we spent, we should have a solid spine and decent bench options.  Unfortunately we don't, and after 5 years and lots of transfers you have to ask why?

I do not think we should sack rafa though, he is a top manager and no other manager could probably handle his current situation with the calm he has shown.  But I do think some could of done much better in the transfer markert

I think it is wise to look at the past. If you can't learn from your mistakes you are destined to make the same mistakes over and over again.

Let's get real. Liverpool has only won 1 major trophy for about 20 years. The reason is that Liverpool could not handle the modern game. In the early ninetees for example everywhere I went on my busines travels across the worl I found Man United products. Sweathers, shirts, wallets, beer bottles, cans, bed sheets, pillows, fanzines and so on and so on.

They built a bigger stadium and soon they earned 3 to 4 times as much money as Liverpool. I never found no Liverpool products on my travels. Despite the fact that Liverpool had the best players and the most successful team.

Liverpool did not build a new stadium. The got bypassed on all fronts. Instead they hired the worst manager britain have seen the last 30 years. Forget Glen Roeder and Christian Gross. Souness destroyed Liverpool and managed to finish 8th place with a team consistently winning or taking the runners up spot 10 years in a row. He is also the main reson for Newcastle's misery.

Now we are suffering from 20 years of bad decisions. When Benitez came along we were a lot worse then we are right nor. the treble season. We did not compete against the best teams and quite frankly when we tried to beat United back then we had to play with 10 men behind the ball and hope for a miracle.

The last couple of seasons have been good. We have dominated almost every single game. Our losses have been mostly unlucky but also because of a clear lack of strikers with skills. Our midfield, our goalkeeper and our defense have been better than all other teams on the planet.

This is one hell of a feat, considering the 20 years of mismanagement and financially weak position the club is in.

FFS our match revenues in only a third (33 %) of what United and Arsenal is making. How can you compete with that?

It is very easy indeed to go for the easy fix. Taking it all out on a fall guy. Diverting the attention away from the real problem.

I am bemused some fans walk down that road.

[SupitsJonF]

Don't want to pyramid quote, but good post.  It's easy to forget the past, especially the bad times.  We have been in our best position in years (except this season, but I still think we will get in gear), have a class manager, but I still think he should of done a better job constructing an all around team, not just a starting 11. 

If you asked me if I would want to give up Torres to secure strikers like Defoe, Bent, and Negredo, filling a good bench. I'd obviously say no, it's a mess

No complaints about the way the club is advertised, but even though the Yanks won't give us a cent, I think it's possible that if they ever want to start seeing a better return they will do better advertising (new shirt sponsor is a good start).  New stadium though?  Yeah right 

[aCe']

our best players:

Gerrard (academy)
Torres (26.5 mill, under American owners)
Mascherano (18 or so mill, under American owners)
Aquilani (20mill, under American owners)
Johnson (18mill, under American owners)

Thats 80something mill spent on 4 players while under our currents owners by Rafa... Add to that players like Babel (11.5mill), Dossena (7mill) and Riera (8mill) and you realize that spending hasnt really been our biggest problem in recent times regardless of the owners and the clubs financial state...

Should Rafa have done better with the money ? probably....

Regardless, i think its still too early in the season to be talking about sacking the manager or anything like that... our main problem atm is managing what we got... its where Benitez has failed so far this season, and its where he needs to improve much, and quick.

[bigmick]

People are obsessed with the money angle all of a sudden, whereas last season they hardly mentioned it. Lets look at some facts. I'm going to quote some transfer values here, lets not get bogged down in a million quid either way.

We finished four points behind the Mancs last season, in second place in the Premiership (fact). From there, this happened:

We spent 38 million quid on Johnson, Aquilani and the Greek bloke.
Man Utd spent 18 million quid on Valencia.
Arsenal spent 10 million quid on that Vermeelan bloke.
Chelsea spent 18 million quid on Zhirkov.

Conclusion: We spent around 20 million quid gross more than any other team in the big four since we finsihed four points behind man Utd in second place.

How about NET spend.

Well we sold Alonso for 30 million, and Arbeloa for 3 million, so we SPENT about 5 million quid.
Man Utd sold Ronaldo for 80 million, and lose Carlos Tevez on a free (replaced by Michael Owen on a free), so they NET GAINED around 62 million quid. 
Arsenal sold adebayor for 25 million quid, and sold Kolo Toure for 12 million quid, so they NET GAINED around 27 million quid.
Chelsea didn't sell anyone, so they SPENT 18 million quid.

Conclusion: In terms of net SPEND, we were 67 million pounds better off than Man Utd, 32 million pounds better off than Arsenal, and 13 million pounds worse off than Chelsea.



Now, we finished four points behind the Mancs last season remember. Is a 67 million pound turnaround enough to claw it back? We'll have to see obviously. We obviously finished ahead of Arsenal last season, and have spent net around 27 million quid more than them. We ought really to finish well ahead once again if money is the be all and end all right? We'll have to see.


Money truly is the route of all evil when you really look at it.

[NANNY RED]

...... and Bav makes an appearence at half 11 at night. We've you been whilst some of us have been repulsing the enemy defeatist communists saying Rafa should be sacked all day ffs? 58,000 posts to his name and no where to be seen when we need him.....








Were'nt hiding under the bed were you Bav?

Thats problem ain't it reg this is all just a fecking game for you isn't it fecking pleb well this is my football club and its not game I love it to death and all I see is 1 man fecking it all up for every one else.Please if you fecking around thinking its all game to argue with me over every point I make then you can feck off and I put you on ignor because so far I am yet to see a logical debate from you about real reasons he should stay.

Thats you told then Reg go an get yeh head down now lad.

[bigmick]

I was expecting a flood of posts about where i was wrong on the money side of things, but not a one I've heard it so many times over the last few weeks that it was ALL down to the owners not backing the manager, and I've tried to lay it out what has happened since the end of last season, so far no comebacks

[Reg]

...... and Bav makes an appearence at half 11 at night. We've you been whilst some of us have been repulsing the enemy defeatist communists saying Rafa should be sacked all day ffs? 58,000 posts to his name and no where to be seen when we need him.....








Were'nt hiding under the bed were you Bav?

Thats problem ain't it reg this is all just a fecking game for you isn't it fecking pleb well this is my football club and its not game I love it to death and all I see is 1 man fecking it all up for every one else.Please if you fecking around thinking its all game to argue with me over every point I make then you can feck off and I put you on ignor because so far I am yet to see a logical debate from you about real reasons he should stay.

Thats you told then Reg go an get yeh head down now lad.

Sorry nan, I had to go find a hankie.

Dazz, you need to put it into perspective, we all love the club but you've way over reacted these last 2 days, you've even eclipsed lando and I dont say that lightly.

[tubby]

...... and Bav makes an appearence at half 11 at night. We've you been whilst some of us have been repulsing the enemy defeatist communists saying Rafa should be sacked all day ffs? 58,000 posts to his name and no where to be seen when we need him.....








Were'nt hiding under the bed were you Bav?

Thats problem ain't it reg this is all just a fecking game for you isn't it fecking pleb well this is my football club and its not game I love it to death and all I see is 1 man fecking it all up for every one else.Please if you fecking around thinking its all game to argue with me over every point I make then you can feck off and I put you on ignor because so far I am yet to see a logical debate from you about real reasons he should stay.

Mate there is no need for the aggro we are all concerned with the present situation.

[Sir Roger]

I was expecting a flood of posts about where i was wrong on the money side of things, but not a one I've heard it so many times over the last few weeks that it was ALL down to the owners not backing the manager, and I've tried to lay it out what has happened since the end of last season, so far no comebacks

I dont think moneys got much to do with it personally

[tubby]

I was expecting a flood of posts about where i was wrong on the money side of things, but not a one I've heard it so many times over the last few weeks that it was ALL down to the owners not backing the manager, and I've tried to lay it out what has happened since the end of last season, so far no comebacks

I will just post this....again as it dispells all the silly myths that people like to bring up. 

T*******: FERGUSON IS WRONG

Thankfully, most media outlets seem to have seen the massive inaccuracy in Alex Ferguson's figures relating to Liverpool's spending.

That he should even choose to come out with such figures in the first place is interesting, given his rather undignified reaction to Rafa's 'fact' press conference a couple of months back.
 
I'm also still smiling over his 'we were the better side' comments following their total humiliation last week, which every neutral I've spoken to found hilarious. That United played so well was obviously the reason Old Trafford was so empty in the last 10 minutes. He's also had a pop by excluding Rafa's name from the best managers in the league, which seems a bit childish for a pensioner.
 
You can't argue with Ferguson's success as a manager, but you can with some of the things he says.
 
This season may be a learning curve for Liverpool, with the league United's to lose even before their two main rivals were drawn against each other in the Champions League (which yet means the teams aspiring to catch United play each other in titanic, exhausting battles, as seen with Chelsea and Arsenal facing Liverpool last season while United get the easy draw.)
 
But the United manager is clearly worried, particularly as stability has been put in place at Anfield regarding the manager's future.
 
That the United manager should already be talking about Liverpool's future spending is fascinating. Why do so, unless he's worried?
 
Ferguson talks about the young players United have signed, and bizarrely says that Rafa, a man who started out in youth development, does things differently.
 
Perhaps Torres, Reina, Alonso, Mascherano, Agger, Lucas, Babel and Skrtel weren't all young players – aged 20-23 – when Rafa signed them after all, and all the teenage talent brought to the club, including Insua, Nemeth, Pacheco, Plessis and Ngog, is just a mirage?
 
How many players in their 30s has Rafa brought to the club? I can't think of one before or after Pellegrino, at 33, in 2005. Nor one as old as Henrik Larsson or Edwin van der Sar.
 
Robbie Keane was the oldest major signing Benítez has made, and perhaps the fact that he turns 29 this summer was why he was shipped out so quickly; at that age, if it doesn't look like it's working, you can't bide your time, particularly if a good offer comes in before the age-related depreciation takes place.
 
But the major flaw in Ferguson's argument is the fact that he already had half of his squad in place in 2004 when Rafa arrived.
 
He hasn't needed to rebuild an entire squad from scratch, merely add the £15m-£30m adornments. Rafa has clearly had to deal in quantity to cover all positions, but Ferguson has had the luxury of looking solely at quality.
 
So the two situations are poles apart. Ferguson had already spent big on players like Rio Ferdinand before Rafa pitched up.
 
He already had the players who emerged because of his youth system, which took almost seven years to bear fruit beyond one player (Giggs emerged in year five). Benítez would only be at that stage in 2011.
 
Indeed, if you add together every single player Rafa has bought (and there have been around 60, many of whom were mere kids), it still does not reach the total cost of United's current squad.
 
Even if you also add the cost of those players Rafa inherited who are still at the club (and there are just three), it still does not reach the total cost of United's current squad.
 
Including players out on loan (but not the full Tevez fee due this summer), United's squad costs over £215m, compared with Liverpool's £134m.
 
Let me remind you of what I said a few weeks back:
 
“Unless Ferguson is banned from fielding players like Ferdinand and Ronaldo (which would be illogical), or forced to start from scratch in 2004 (again illogical), it is not a fair comparison, is it? – I mean, come on, use your brain for a second here.”
 
Benítez is trying to overturn an established superpower, one that still has a dozen-or-so players who predate his arrival in England. Rafa has just three who were good enough and young enough to endure (not that Hyypia was young, but like Giggs he is evergreen).
 
As well as buy players, Rafa has had to change the culture of the club to fit in with his ideas, as all managers do; Ferguson did that 20 years ago. It's why it took him so long to win the title, as you cannot change things overnight.
 
Unless Benítez was going to try and compete for honours with the likes of Diao, Cheyrou, and Diouf, or players like Smicer, Dudek, Hamann and Henchoz, who are now all in their mid-30s (and therefore had a very short shelf-life), or injury-prone stars like Harry Kewell, Liverpool needed a fairly complete overhaul.
 
Particularly as Owen and Heskey had left, and Djibril Cissé was about to arrive, all of which had been pretty much decided before Rafa took the job. (Also, including Cissé as a Benítez signing only further skews the figures.)
 
So the inaccuracies are clear for all to see. But let's switch things a little.
 
How did Ferguson overtake Liverpool? The situation was very similar to that now, even if it was a long time ago now.
 
Remember, both Ferguson and Benítez arrived aged 44, and inherited squads that had averaged 4th over the previous four seasons, and finished 4th the season before they arrived. All the fours, then!
 
Each had a massive burden of expectation, brought about by a desperately long wait for the title. Alex Ferguson's average league position in his first five seasons at United was 8.6 (11th, 2nd, 11th, 13th, and 6th). Benítez's, if Liverpool finish only 3rd this season, will be 3.6.
 
But Ferguson faced in Liverpool in the '80s an established team with a top-class manager. He couldn't get close to Dalglish during their time in the respective dugouts.

Ferguson spent more money between 1986 and February 1991 (£12.8m gross, £9.87m net) than Dalglish managed in his six seasons (£12.5m gross, but only £5.77m net), but got nowhere near to toppling the Reds in that time.
 
So United's net spend was virtually twice that of Liverpool, and yet Ferguson still didn't trouble Dalglish. The money Ferguson spent wisely in the late '80s on players like Ince, Pallister, Hughes and Bruce took four years to have any effect on the league title. This is only Torres and Mascherano's second season.
 
So why did Ferguson spend so much more than Dalglish?
 
Well, Dalglish (like Ferguson in 2004) had a lot of his squad already in place.
 
Grobbelaar, Hansen, McMahon, Whelan and Nicol all spanned the entire period when Dalglish and Ferguson managed the two English superpowers.
 
(Liverpool raised £3.2m from selling Ian Rush in 1987, but the Reds also spend almost as much to bring him back a year later.)
 
Those men formed the heart of Dalglish's Liverpool.
 
They were five players who didn't need to be signed between 1986 and 1991; the kind of quality that could cost a king's ransom if they hadn't already been snapped up before at the top of their powers.
 
Ian Rush, the sixth name, also had a Liverpool connection which meant that although he needed to be re-signed, it was a relatively easy deal because of his time at Anfield.
 
Of course, Rush's initial departure led to the greatest influx of talent seen under Dalglish: the wonderful quartet of Aldridge, Beardsley, Barnes and Houghton. So Dalglish was partly 'blessed' in that Rush, whom he inherited, at least raised enough money to rebuild the attack upon his transfer.
 
Ferguson has enjoyed similar bonuses more recently: selling his best players for big fees as they approached their 30s (such as Stam, Beckham and Van Nistelrooy). Such sales now help keep Ferguson's net spend down, but in his first five years he couldn't get such impressive sums for Ron Atkinson's flops. So his net spend was very high for the times.
 
Again, make the comparison with Benítez and the likes of Diao and Cheyrou, who raised nothing.
 
Benítez never had such a luxury. Owen's value wasn't great due to his contract situation, leaving £10m less coming in. The only seriously saleable asset was Steven Gerrard.
 
The biggest profits Rafa has made have been on players he himself bought: Crouch, Bellamy, Sissoko. Of course, he hasn't been in the job long enough to sell his real gems, in the way Ferguson and Wenger (with Henry and Vieira) have picked the perfect time to cash in on world-class players aged 29/30/31.
 
If Rafa wanted to sell Torres he could make a massive profit, but thankfully the striker still has five years before he even reaches 30. So it's not relevant. Ideally, Torres would score loads of goals, win Liverpool titles, and return to his beloved Atletico no earlier than 2014 for a big fee.
 
Therefore you cannot ignore the way Ferguson overcame Liverpool – not by spending more, but by spending twice the amount.
 
So there you have it. It took the resignation of Dalglish to open the way for Ferguson, who had spent twice as much money but only averaged 9th place between 1986 and 1991. No wonder United fans wanted him out in 1990. But it just goes to show how difficult it is to overtake a side that already has the momentum, but that the best managers get there in the end.
 
If Ferguson is thinking back to how he did so, then no wonder he's feeling worried.

[LFC2007]

People are obsessed with the money angle all of a sudden, whereas last season they hardly mentioned it. Lets look at some facts. I'm going to quote some transfer values here, lets not get bogged down in a million quid either way.

We finished four points behind the Mancs last season, in second place in the Premiership (fact). From there, this happened:

We spent 38 million quid on Johnson, Aquilani and the Greek bloke.
Man Utd spent 18 million quid on Valencia.
Arsenal spent 10 million quid on that Vermeelan bloke.
Chelsea spent 18 million quid on Zhirkov.

Conclusion: We spent around 20 million quid gross more than any other team in the big four since we finsihed four points behind man Utd in second place.

How about NET spend.

Well we sold Alonso for 30 million, and Arbeloa for 3 million, so we SPENT about 5 million quid.
Man Utd sold Ronaldo for 80 million, and lose Carlos Tevez on a free (replaced by Michael Owen on a free), so they NET GAINED around 62 million quid. 
Arsenal sold adebayor for 25 million quid, and sold Kolo Toure for 12 million quid, so they NET GAINED around 27 million quid.
Chelsea didn't sell anyone, so they SPENT 18 million quid.

Conclusion: In terms of net SPEND, we were 67 million pounds better off than Man Utd, 32 million pounds better off than Arsenal, and 13 million pounds worse off than Chelsea.



Now, we finished four points behind the Mancs last season remember. Is a 67 million pound turnaround enough to claw it back? We'll have to see obviously. We obviously finished ahead of Arsenal last season, and have spent net around 27 million quid more than them. We ought really to finish well ahead once again if money is the be all and end all right? We'll have to see.


Money truly is the route of all evil when you really look at it.

I don't think anyone has recently argued that the owners are entirely to blame for our present situation on the pitch. Even Igor accepts that Rafa's quite culpable on the football side of things.

Anyway, to your question, the Manc's have had a stronger squad than us for years so they were better equipped to absorb the losses of Tevez and Ronaldo than we were the loss of Alonso, and the temporary loss of Agger, Riera, Torres and Gerrard in a period when we were most exposed.

[tubby]

Exactly. They have after all won the league how many times in the last 10 years? They have had a strong squad for a long time so when someone goes it doesn't hurt them as much as it hurts us. Our problem is we need out first 11 to get the 3 points, they do not, even without Ronaldo or Tevez.

[bigmick]

I can't be bothered to crunch the numbers and do the research (come back S@int, we miss you mate) but to ignore the fact that we have spent more than the Mancs over the last six seasons and still keep bleating about it, is getting sooooooo tedious. Ferguson had a much stronger squad etc etc, we finished ahead of them a season or two before Rafa came. We won the Champions League with the majority of the squad which was left to Rafa.

I'm not disputing that we needed a rebuild, but come on lets be serious here. Arsenal have rebuilt THE WHOLE TEAM, THE WHOLE SQUAD INFACT AND SPENT LESS MONEY THAN US.

Lets stop playing these silly games with excuses. we finished second and within four points of the mancs last season. They sold the World player of the year, lost Carlos Tevez and replaced them with Antonio Valencia and Michael Owen. Under those circumstances, is there a Liverpool fan anywhere who hand on heart wouldn't have expected us to have a really good chance of making up a four point gap?

By all means lets not overreact, I'm not saying we should sack the manager because we shouldn't, but a little sensibility and objectivity wouldn't go amiss either.

[tubby]

I can't be bothered to crunch the numbers and do the research (come back S@int, we miss you mate) but to ignore the fact that we have spent more than the Mancs over the last six seasons and still keep bleating about it, is getting sooooooo tedious. Ferguson had a much stronger squad etc etc, we finished ahead of them a season or two before Rafa came. We won the Champions League with the majority of the squad which was left to Rafa.

I'm not disputing that we needed a rebuild, but come on lets be serious here. Arsenal have rebuilt THE WHOLE TEAM, THE WHOLE SQUAD INFACT AND SPENT LESS MONEY THAN US.

Lets stop playing these silly games with excuses. we finished second and within four points of the mancs last season. They sold the World player of the year, lost Carlos Tevez and replaced them with Antonio Valencia and Michael Owen. Under those circumstances, is there a Liverpool fan anywhere who hand on heart wouldn't have expected us to have a really good chance of making up a four point gap?

By all means lets not overreact, I'm not saying we should sack the manager because we shouldn't, but a little sensibility and objectivity wouldn't go amiss either.

That season we won in 2005 we also finished like 30 points of the top where as it was a fraction of that last season.

The problem is we have lost balance since Xabi left and Lucas is not good enough to fill that void till Aquilani is fit. On top of that we are playing 10 yards further up the pitch this season and our cb's are having problems adjusting. A few defeats and the confidence goes and that is where we find ourselves now. We need to beat the mancs on Sunday.

[bigmick]

1.The problem is we have lost balance since Xabi left




2. and Lucas is not good enough to fill that void till Aquilani is fit.




3. On top of that we are playing 10 yards further up the pitch this season and our cb's are having problems adjusting.




4. A few defeats and the confidence goes and that is where we find ourselves now. We need to beat the mancs on Sunday.

Fecking hell . This is like pulling teeth sometimes.

I've split your post up Bav.

1.  about the "balance". we haven't lost it in all games, only the ones where Gerrard hasn't played in central midfield. As to the fact that we didn't sign a replacement for Alonso who was ready to step up, who's fault is that exactly? I know, it's the owners.

2. Lucas not being good enough? Unbelieveable really, who could have forseen that? Given that we now know he isn't good enough to "fill that void" but have lost four times in the league proving it, who's fault is it that we tried it and it didn't work? I know, it's Lucas's fault.

3. We are playing ten yards further up the pitch. We aren't. Our centre backs are having trouble adjusting. They are having trouble adjusting to not having two sitters in front, not having someone who is prepared to take the ball off them, and having a right back who bombs on. I agree with that. Who's fault is it that they haven't managed to come to terms with the adjustments? I know, it's the centre backs fault.

4. A few defeats (the players) and confidence goes (the owners for undermining the manager in the press).

lets continue.


Zonal marking isn't working. Who's fault is it? It's the players. Innit.

Morale is a bit low. Who's fault is that? Gerrards, sh!t captain.

Sergio Aguero is a good player and we didn't sign him. Who's fault? the owners. Gareth Barry? fecking Parry (and the fact that he's a greedy barsterd).

We haven't won any trophies for 3 and half seasons? the owners obviously.

We've gone backwards since last season? Man City's owners.






If any other complaints come up Bav, pass em in my direction and I'll tell em who's fault it is.