Liverpool FC Forum

[Lando_Griffin]

The following season (Rafa's fourth) the Mancs were champions again. We finshed fourth BEHIND ARSENAL (don't you hate it when facts get in the way of total bullsh!t). Arsenal finsihed 7 points ahead of us. We did improve though from our awful previous season to gain 76 points, eight more than the previous campaign, although still six less than we had in our good season. We finished fourth, eleven points behind the Mancs. I'm afraid your argument doesn't hold up.

Awww diddums - after months and months you've managed to dig up a stat to back your argument up...

Well done - your mummy must be so proud of you - I know I am...

To paraphrase a bit of a dullard; "Arsenal have won less trophies than us since Rafa arrived."

All this "your argument doesn't hold up" is beyond tedious. Why don't you drag up the Man U squad when rafa arrived and compare it to last season - let's see how much their starting 11 changed.

No? Didn't think you'd fancy that little stat...

[bigmick]

I refer you to the post above yours. Now jog on

[Lando_Griffin]

In fact, I think the thread should be renamed. It should be titled "It's time to stop chatting sh!t".

Better still - "Will Mick ever stop being a pr*ck?"

There's more of a ring to that.

It's very sad to see a Liverpool fan trying to a*se-kiss managers of other teams, but when you've finished:

Man Utd squad 2004 (players still at the club at the start of the 2008-09 season in bold.):

13 Roy Carroll
1 Tim Howard
35 Ricardo
30 Luke Steele

26 Phil Bardsley
6 Wes Brown
5 Rio Ferdinand
4 Gabriel Ivan Heinze
2 Gary Neville
3 Phil Neville
22 John O'Shea
28 Gerard Pique
27 Mickaël Silvestre
29 Jonathan Spector

33 Chris Eagles
24 Darren Fletcher
25 Quinton Fortune
31 David Jones
16 Roy Keane
15 Kleberson
17 Liam Miller
18 Paul Scholes
39 Paul Tierney
12 David Bellion
40 Sylvan Ebanks-Blake
11 Ryan Giggs
7 Cristiano Ronaldo
8 Wayne Rooney
42 Giuseppe Rossi
9 Louis Saha
14 Alan Smith
20 Ole Gunnar Solskjær
10 Ruud van Nistelrooy
13 Ji-Sung Park

Liverpool squad 2004:

1 Jerzy Dudek
22 Christopher Kirkland
29 Patrice Luzi

23 James Carragher
3 Stephen Finnan
2 Stéphane Henchoz
4 Sami Hyypia
18 John Arne Riise
21 Djimi Traoré
37 Zak Whitbread

25 Igor Biscan
28 Bruno Cheyrou
15 Salif Alassane Diao
Michael Foley-Sheridan
17 Steven Gerrard
16 Dietmar Hamann
7 Harry Kewell
20 Anthony Le Tallec
13 Daniel Murphy
26 Ritchie Partridge
34 Darren Potter
11 Vladimir Smicer
32 John Welsh

5 Milan Baros
9 El Hadji Diouf
8 Emile Heskey
10 Michael Owen
24 Florent Sinama-Pongolle .

I'll leave everyone to make their own minds up. No doubting some utter berk will twist it round and blame Rafa for it...

[Lando_Griffin]

I refer you to the post above yours. Now jog on

Don't act the big man with me, boy.

[bigmick]

Well aside from the fact that obviously Ronaldo, Saha and Sylvestre aren't there any more, I'm not sure what your point is. Out of their squad, obviously Ferdinand would still be in their first team now, as would Rooney. Fletcher back then was but a boy who rarely played, but he's close to being first team material for them now. Scholes and Giggs would have been first choice back then, but Giggs is the only one out of the two who plays regualrly today. O'Shea and Wes Brown kind of share first team duties these days but were both excellent products of their youth system. When you look at that squad they had though, it's easy to see why they didn't win the league for three seasons. It wasn't that strong.

If that's your point, then I agree with you.

Whenever I look at our squad back then, before rafa got his hands on it it looks very weak. That said, a first team of Dudek, Riise, Hyppia, Henchoz, Finnan, Kewell, Gerrard, Hamann, Murphy, Heskey and Owen would probably give the team of today more than a good run for its money.

Perhaps that's your point, that they've improved more obviously than we have. If it is, I agree.

[bigmick]

I refer you to the post above yours. Now jog on

Don't act the big man with me, boy.

 

[banana]

Well aside from the fact that obviously Ronaldo, Saha and Sylvestre aren't there any more, I'm not sure what your point is. Out of their squad, obviously Ferdinand would still be in their first team now, as would Rooney. Fletcher back then was but a boy who rarely played, but he's close to being first team material for them now. Scholes and Giggs would have been first choice back then, but Giggs is the only one out of the two who plays regualrly today. O'Shea and Wes Brown kind of share first team duties these days but were both excellent products of their youth system. When you look at that squad they had though, it's easy to see why they didn't win the league for three seasons. It wasn't that strong.

If that's your point, then I agree with you.

Whenever I look at our squad back then, before rafa got his hands on it it looks very weak. That said, a first team of Dudek, Riise, Hyppia, Henchoz, Finnan, Kewell, Gerrard, Hamann, Murphy, Heskey and Owen would probably give the team of today more than a good run for its money.

Perhaps that's your point, that they've improved more obviously than we have. If it is, I agree.

Get real man. You sound desperate.


The Liverpool team Benitez inherited needed a dramatic overhaul. Only 4-5 players had the necessary quality.

By that time Fergie had built a team with massive quality. Only 1 or maybe 2 of our players could have sompeted for a place in their first 11 back then. Nowadays it is completely different. We have quality but we do not have a quality squad. 5 or 6 of our guys would have eased into their starting 11. It has taken Rafa a lot of time and money to replace the Diaos, Dioufs, Cheyrous, Tallecs, Murphys, Biscans of this world. No manager could have done that on the cheap.

From the players he has bought he has made a handsome profit on many of them on resales. Alonso obviously. But also Bellamy, Crouch, Gonzalez, Sissoko, Leto.

The potential losses will be Kuyt (mostly because he has aged), Pennant ,Johnson (you always loose when you buy English), Keane (lost a few million pounds), Babel (although he may still turn good).

But all those lost pounds could easily be recovered on selling Mascherano or Torres (god forbid). All managers make mistakes in the transfer market. Rafa has made some. But he has been correct a lot of times. The fact that we became the best team in the world for the last two seasons is testiment to this. Now do you sack a manager making Liverpool the number one team in the world?

I am , as I have said earlier, bemused by some of the statemnents and by some of our "fans" short-sightedness. I waited almost 20 years for a good manager to come along and make us compete at home and in Europe. I am to old to wait another 20 years for some stupid sacking Benitez and dismanteling the team we have put together since his arrival.

[bigmick]

Well aside from the fact that obviously Ronaldo, Saha and Sylvestre aren't there any more, I'm not sure what your point is. Out of their squad, obviously Ferdinand would still be in their first team now, as would Rooney. Fletcher back then was but a boy who rarely played, but he's close to being first team material for them now. Scholes and Giggs would have been first choice back then, but Giggs is the only one out of the two who plays regualrly today. O'Shea and Wes Brown kind of share first team duties these days but were both excellent products of their youth system. When you look at that squad they had though, it's easy to see why they didn't win the league for three seasons. It wasn't that strong.

If that's your point, then I agree with you.

Whenever I look at our squad back then, before rafa got his hands on it it looks very weak. That said, a first team of Dudek, Riise, Hyppia, Henchoz, Finnan, Kewell, Gerrard, Hamann, Murphy, Heskey and Owen would probably give the team of today more than a good run for its money.

Perhaps that's your point, that they've improved more obviously than we have. If it is, I agree.

Get real man. You sound desperate.


The Liverpool team Benitez inherited needed a dramatic overhaul. Only 4-5 players had the necessary quality.

By that time Fergie had built a team with massive quality. Only 1 or maybe 2 of our players could have sompeted for a place in their first 11 back then. Nowadays it is completely different. We have quality but we do not have a quality squad. 5 or 6 of our guys would have eased into their starting 11. It has taken Rafa a lot of time and money to replace the Diaos, Dioufs, Cheyrous, Tallecs, Murphys, Biscans of this world. No manager could have done that on the cheap.

From the players he has bought he has made a handsome profit on many of them on resales. Alonso obviously. But also Bellamy, Crouch, Gonzalez, Sissoko, Leto.

The potential losses will be Kuyt (mostly because he has aged), Pennant ,Johnson (you always loose when you buy English), Keane (lost a few million pounds), Babel (although he may still turn good).

But all those lost pounds could easily be recovered on selling Mascherano or Torres (god forbid). All managers make mistakes in the transfer market. Rafa has made some. But he has been correct a lot of times. The fact that we became the best team in the world for the last two seasons is testiment to this. Now do you sack a manager making Liverpool the number one team in the world?

I am , as I have said earlier, bemused by some of the statemnents and by some of our "fans" short-sightedness. I waited almost 20 years for a good manager to come along and make us compete at home and in Europe. I am to old to wait another 20 years for some stupid sacking Benitez and dismanteling the team we have put together since his arrival.

Suffice to say I don't think we're going to agree on much, but that's Ok  .

[made in UK]

1) It's quite likely he would've bought striker cover had any money over and above the amount he recouped been made available. Perhaps we would still have had problems in spite of any extra money and for that Rafa would be to blame.

2) He bought a midfielder who was crocked, but for good reason and on advice that he would be ready well before now.

3) Lucas' inclusion alongside Masch was, I suspect, strongly guided by a desire to keep the Torres-Gerrard partnership together. Given that we at least managed with that midfield pairing aganst the Manc's at Old Trafford it was not unreasonable to think it could at least hold out at WHL, and moreover, Aston Villa at home. That Masch was performing as badly as he has done since he joined didn't help at all either. Not that Masch is at all responsible for his performances or anything   He reverted back to it and on that score I would add my criticism, even though against Chelsea I'm not convinced it was such a bad idea, nor did it have a direct bearing on the Sunderland game because of our injury problems.

4) The actual planning of pre-season I wouldn't fault much at all (perhaps we might have had one more proper friendly in Europe, but that's about it) - Spurs got beat by South China two weeks after we'd finished our tour of Asia - that didn't stop them having an absolute stormer in their opening fixtures.

5) Well, he is partly to blame and some of that criticism concerns the immediacy, some of it concerns the past, but so too are the owners. I do though think that we've had very little good fortune with injuries.

6) It's not true to say we've 'net spent' £67m more than the Manc's. They received £67m that goes down as cash in their bank. It's not money we've invested, it's simply a loss in asset-terms that they've absorbed.

1. Nobody knows what Rafa would of done if he had the money available to buy someone. It's not as if we're in sheer desperation of just needing a striker to challenge and win the league. If he had the money he could of spent it on a few positions. Had Rafa purchased a striker anyhow and he for some unfortunate reason became injured, aswell as Torres. I'm pretty sure a more objective view would have been taken by many in light of this new signing getting injured.

2. "He bought a midfielder who was crocked", that was probably Rafa's first mistake then wasn't it? Especially knowing the cover he had for him wasn't/isn't exactly tip top. But he has been excused now and what, the finger of blame  pointed at the club doctor? Looking at the Italian's injury history, it gives you a fair idea  knowing that he has fitness issues which are dubious to say the least.

3. I do agree to an extent with the 'wanting to keep Gerrard and Torres playing together' notion. With masharano's early poor form and Lucas playing next to him we are now highlighted as having two (thats being generous) standout Achilles heels.

4. I think pre-season was a shambles this year personally. We spent more time on the plane than we did training for starters. And from our performancers during these friendlies it became apparent all did not look good when the begining of the season was on the horizon.

5. I do agree, but you look at managers like Wenger who's had more injuries in a month than we've had in five years and wonder how he copes.

6. We've spent alot of money in Rafa's five years, there is no two ways of looking at it. And currently we have players like Lucas, Babel, Dossena, Degen (wages), Voronin (wages), N'Gog, Insua, Aurelio in attacking mid and the hot and cold riera playing for us. That is where we're at, moneys been spent players have come and gone and we've got dross backing the team up.

[Reg]

Great debate lads, keep it up.

[Lando_Griffin]

Well aside from the fact that obviously Ronaldo, Saha and Sylvestre aren't there any more, I'm not sure what your point is. Out of their squad, obviously Ferdinand would still be in their first team now, as would Rooney. Fletcher back then was but a boy who rarely played, but he's close to being first team material for them now. Scholes and Giggs would have been first choice back then, but Giggs is the only one out of the two who plays regualrly today. O'Shea and Wes Brown kind of share first team duties these days but were both excellent products of their youth system. When you look at that squad they had though, it's easy to see why they didn't win the league for three seasons. It wasn't that strong.

If that's your point, then I agree with you.

Whenever I look at our squad back then, before rafa got his hands on it it looks very weak. That said, a first team of Dudek, Riise, Hyppia, Henchoz, Finnan, Kewell, Gerrard, Hamann, Murphy, Heskey and Owen would probably give the team of today more than a good run for its money.

Perhaps that's your point, that they've improved more obviously than we have. If it is, I agree.

And you wonder why I don't often humour you with a footballing post... 

[Reg]

Landos in da house.  Condoms on and take your seats.

[bigmick]

Well aside from the fact that obviously Ronaldo, Saha and Sylvestre aren't there any more, I'm not sure what your point is. Out of their squad, obviously Ferdinand would still be in their first team now, as would Rooney. Fletcher back then was but a boy who rarely played, but he's close to being first team material for them now. Scholes and Giggs would have been first choice back then, but Giggs is the only one out of the two who plays regualrly today. O'Shea and Wes Brown kind of share first team duties these days but were both excellent products of their youth system. When you look at that squad they had though, it's easy to see why they didn't win the league for three seasons. It wasn't that strong.

If that's your point, then I agree with you.

Whenever I look at our squad back then, before rafa got his hands on it it looks very weak. That said, a first team of Dudek, Riise, Hyppia, Henchoz, Finnan, Kewell, Gerrard, Hamann, Murphy, Heskey and Owen would probably give the team of today more than a good run for its money.

Perhaps that's your point, that they've improved more obviously than we have. If it is, I agree.

And you wonder why I don't often humour you with a footballing post... 

Stay down fella. Just let it go.

[LFC2007]

1. Nobody knows what Rafa would of done if he had the money available to buy someone. It's not as if we're in sheer desperation of just needing a striker to challenge and win the league. If he had the money he could of spent it on a few positions. Had Rafa purchased a striker anyhow and he for some unfortunate reason became injured, aswell as Torres. I'm pretty sure a more objective view would have been taken by many in light of this new signing getting injured.

2. "He bought a midfielder who was crocked", that was probably Rafa's first mistake then wasn't it? Especially knowing the cover he had for him wasn't/isn't exactly tip top. But he has been excused now and what, the finger of blame  pointed at the club doctor? Looking at the Italian's injury history, it gives you a fair idea  knowing that he has fitness issues which are dubious to say the least.

3. I do agree to an extent with the 'wanting to keep Gerrard and Torres playing together' notion. With masharano's early poor form and Lucas playing next to him we are now highlighted as having two (thats being generous) standout Achilles heels.

4. I think pre-season was a shambles this year personally. We spent more time on the plane than we did training for starters. And from our performancers during these friendlies it became apparent all did not look good when the begining of the season was on the horizon.

5. I do agree, but you look at managers like Wenger who's had more injuries in a month than we've had in five years and wonder how he copes.

6. We've spent alot of money in Rafa's five years, there is no two ways of looking at it. And currently we have players like Lucas, Babel, Dossena, Degen (wages), Voronin (wages), N'Gog, Insua, Aurelio in attacking mid and the hot and cold riera playing for us. That is where we're at, moneys been spent players have come and gone and we've got dross backing the team up.

Alright Bam, enjoying freedom? 

1) Obviously 'nobodies knows' what he would've done with any extra money. What kind of comment is that?   Judging by the fact that Carlos Tevez's agent came out on at least one occassion telling the press 'Liverpool would be interested in him', it suggested we might well have been interested in securing forward cover. Besides, any extra money needn't necessarily have been spent forward to make a significant difference. It could've been a midfielder or a centre half capable of coming in for Lucas or Masch and Skrtl or Carra respectively.

2) With hindsight, that's a safe judgment to make. At the time, however, he was expected to be fit a lot earlier than now, and as I pointed out in another thread, it was perfectly reasonable that - given the importance of the signing and the need to get right for the long-term - this player had to be the right one. For the sake of what was originally slated to be a month or two on the sidelines at most, it seemed reasonable enough gamble. If that wasn't enough, it was quite unfortunate that Gareth Barry had been snapped up by City at the start of the window when we had fully intended to sign him up (one who could've steadied the ship, no doubt), and as a few pointed out, there weren't many brilliant playmakers out there for £20m anyway. Although we did miss out on Fabregas, which was criminal given how realistic a shot it was    That was a sign of the times remember; there was actually a sense that were quite decent and wouldn't be anywhere near the position we're in even if we had to make do without Aquilani for two months.

3)...

4) B0llocks was it a 'shambles' Bam. Most of the top sides were off round the globe and we arrived back earlier than most of them. At best we might have had another proper friendly or two in the schedule. That I'd accept, not the jet-setting criticism (as if he'd be allowed not to).

5) I suppose then I'd say that they havn't won anything for four seasons.

6) Agreed, except I'd chalk Aurelio and Insua off that list instantly. No way at a million quid + wages between the two were they bad signings.

[made in UK]

1) Obviously 'nobodies knows' what he would've done with any extra money. What kind of comment is that?   Judging by the fact that Carlos Tevez's agent came out on at least one occassion telling the press 'Liverpool would be interested in him', it suggested we might well have been interested in securing forward cover. Besides, any extra money needn't necessarily have been spent forward to make a significant difference. It could've been a midfielder or a centre half capable of coming in for Lucas or Masch and Skrtl or Carra respectively.

2) With hindsight, that's a safe judgment to make. At the time, however, he was expected to be fit a lot earlier than now, and as I pointed out in another thread, it was perfectly reasonable that - given the importance of the signing and the need to get right for the long-term - this player had to be the right one. For the sake of what was originally slated to be a month or two on the sidelines at most, it seemed reasonable enough gamble. If that wasn't enough, it was quite unfortunate that Gareth Barry had been snapped up by City at the start of the window when we had fully intended to sign him up (one who could've steadied the ship, no doubt), and as a few pointed out, there weren't many brilliant playmakers out there for £20m anyway. Although we did miss out on Fabregas, which was criminal given how realistic a shot it was    That was a sign of the times remember; there was actually a sense that were quite decent and wouldn't be anywhere near the position we're in even if we had to make do without Aquilani for two months.

3)...

4) B0llocks was it a 'shambles' Bam. Most of the top sides were off round the globe and we arrived back earlier than most of them. At best we might have had another proper friendly or two in the schedule. That I'd accept, not the jet-setting criticism (as if he'd be allowed not to).

5) I suppose then I'd say that they havn't won anything for four seasons.

6) Agreed, except I'd chalk Aurelio and Insua off that list instantly. No way at a million quid + wages between the two were they bad signings.

1) So we now take it as gospel from an agent whoring his player around top clubs that Rafa wanted a striker? Couldn't you do better and try and back you're statement up from the horses mouth? We're bitter rivals with the mancs and Fergie couldn't do owt about where his player ended up. In other words, by coming out and saying 'Rafa wants Tevez' his agent was putting the pressure on Man. U to stop this from happening i.e give more money for Tevez. By saying LFC wanted him his agent was hoping to get a better deal for Tevez. There was know evidence (apart from an agent! lol) to show Rafa wanted a striker. I don't remember Rafa saying he did. It was the case of a  typical agent playing 'the typical game', not much can be said apart from the fact Tevez ended up at Man.C, where the money was.

2) So it is the doctors fault! And Rafa's gamble didn't pay off correct!

Bringing Barry into the conversation highlights another bad error in regards to Alonso leaving. You're digging a deeper hole for yourself.

3) .

4) Okay the fact the squad was flying around Europe and Asia along with the worrying performances (not results) concludes that it was good preperation for our season ahead. Oh okay! Because we didn't look well equipped for it down at White Hart lane on the first day of the season.

5) You can safely say that. So if our injury record hasn't been as bad as Arsenal's AND we've spent more money than them and haven't won anything for three seasons AND our squad is paper thin with quality, what does that indicate?

6) ...