Liverpool FC Forum

by **LFC2007** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:39 pm

Well, if we accept that Rafa ought to have had a few quid extra to spend in the summer window - and you used to, Mick - then it follows that it might well have compensated for the loss of Alonso and the injuries to Torres, Gerrard, Riera and Agger in a period when Aquilani was still recovering.

by **bigmick** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:50 pm

LFC2007 wrote:Well, if we accept that Rafa ought to have had a few quid extra to spend in the summer window - and you used to, Mick -

I still do accept that he ought to have been given more money mate. I've always said the owners are a pair of c...s and getting rid of them is much more the prioroty that getting rid of any manager will be, however inept he is.

But in all seriousness, we cannot keep on with this teflon style of arguement where Rafa is concerned. His performance as a manager so far this season (if you take into account the Summer as well) has been absolutely awful. If you look at the fact we didn't buy striker cover, we bought a midfielder who was crocked for the first three months of the season, we tried and abjectly failed to cover the loss of Alonso with Lucas, we found a solution to the problem then reverted back even though we knew it wasn't working, the pre season "campaign", the list goes on and on.

If last seasons league finish wasn't a complete and utter fluke, then our performance this season so far has been a disgrace. None of this "well yes Rafa is partially to blame, nobody can say he's not a hand in it" b0ll0cks either. We are behind Sunderland FFS, just ahead of Stoke and Burnley. If we continue as we are we'll be lucky to finish top ten.

It's an over reaction IMHO to say we should sack the manager. It's not an overreaction however to say his performace so far this season has been a joke. For my part, I find these endless attempts to either discredit the person making the comments (not by you but by many) or to abuse them, or to put excuse after excuse after ecuse in the way of sensible analysis just gets tedious.

We've NET spent 67 million quid more than the Mancs since last Summer (when we finished four points behind them), they've lost the best player in the World, they've lost Carlos Tevez, but that doesn't matter because they were a better team than us six seasons ago

Have a word mate, it's getting daft.

by **LFC2007** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:18 pm

bigmick wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:Well, if we accept that Rafa ought to have had a few quid extra to spend in the summer window - and you used to, Mick -

I still do accept that he ought to have been given more money mate. I've always said the owners are a pair of c...s and getting rid of them is much the prioroty that getting rid of any manager will be, however inept he is.

But in seriousness, we cannot keep on with this teflon style of arguement where Rafa is concerned. His performance as amanager so far this season (if you take into account the Summer as well) has been absolutely awful. If you look at the fact we didn't buy striker cover, we bought a midfielder who was crocked for the first three months of the season, we tried and abjectly failed to cover the loss of Alonso with Lucas, we found a solution to the problem then reverted back even though we knew it wasn't working, the pre season "campaign", the list goes on and on.

If last seasons league finish wasn't a complete and utter fluke, then our performance this season so far has been a disgrace. None of this "well yes Rafa is partially to blame, nobody can say he's not a hand in it" b0ll0cks either. We are behind Sunderland FFS, just ahead of Stoke and Burnley. If we continue as we are we'll be lucky to finish top ten.

It's an over reaction IMHo to say we should sack the manager. It's not an overreaction however to say his perfromace so far this season has been a joke. For my part, I find these endless attemtps to either discredit the person making the comments (not by you but by many) or to abuse them, or to put excuse after excuse after ecuse in the way of sensible analysis just gets tedious.

We've net spent 67 million quid more than the Mancs since last Summer (when we finished four points behind them), they've lost the best player in the World, they've lost Carlos Tevez, but that doesn't matter because they were a better team than us six seasons ago

Have a word mate, it's getting daft.

1) It's quite likely he would've bought striker cover had any money over and above the amount he recouped been made available. Perhaps we would still have had problems in spite of any extra money and for that Rafa would be to blame.

2) He bought a midfielder who was crocked, but for good reason and on advice that he would be ready well before now.

3) Lucas' inclusion alongside Masch was, I suspect, strongly guided by a desire to keep the Torres-Gerrard partnership together. Given that we at least managed with that midfield pairing aganst the Manc's at Old Trafford it was not unreasonable to think it could at least hold out at WHL, and moreover, Aston Villa at home. That Masch was performing as badly as he has done since he joined didn't help at all either. Not that Masch is at all responsible for his performances or anything

He reverted back to it and on that score I would add my criticism, even though against Chelsea I'm not convinced it was such a bad idea, nor did it have a direct bearing on the Sunderland game because of our injury problems.

4) The actual planning of pre-season I wouldn't fault much at all (perhaps we might have had one more proper friendly in Europe, but that's about it) - Spurs got beat by South China two weeks after we'd finished our tour of Asia - that didn't stop them having an absolute stormer in their opening fixtures.

5) Well, he is partly to blame and some of that criticism concerns the immediacy, some of it concerns the past, but so too are the owners. I do though think that we've had very little good fortune with injuries.

6) It's not true to say we've 'net spent' £67m more than the Manc's. They received £67m that goes down as cash in their bank. It's not money we've invested, it's simply a loss in asset-terms that they've absorbed.

by **Sabre** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:44 pm

I do find some of the current criticism on Rafa fair, but I also think LFC speaks common sense there.

Why so much patience with Lucas when better players didn't have more chances? Shoudn't he had done better with men like Crouch or Alonso in order to keep them? No, Rafa is not part of the list of the managers who didn't very questionable mistakes.

But it can be denied neither that missing Gerrard, losing Mascherano because of an international, or Torres injured, are massive factors that can lead you to drop points.

But once we have all players available we can be optimistic because remember

"Now we have finally seen the light visa vis mass rotation and the "delayed gazelle" theory, there is no limit to our aspirations".

:buttrock

by **bigmick** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:54 pm

Sabre wrote:"Now we have finally seen the light visa vis mass rotation and the "delayed gazelle" theory, there is no limit to our aspirations".

A predictable retort Sabes, but unfortunately an innaccurate one. there has been a tendency once again to chop and change willy nilly this season, and it certainly hasn't helped any. Unfortunately the litany of other manegerial errors have somewhat masked it's importance and significance, but don't think for a moment that selections such as David N'Gog on his own up front, or Fabio Aurelio in central midfield have gone unnoticed, they haven't.

The sig which you so happily quote, presupposes that we have arrived at the correct team formation in the first place as well. The correct selection while we were waiting for Aquilani (sounds like a song title) was to play Gerrard in central midfield. We did stumble upon it by hook or by crook, only to revert to type as we quickly forgot it again and went from a run where we'd won six on the bounce, into a run where we've lost four on the bounce.

It's only that we've so heavily invested in Rafa, his backroom team, the youth set-up and the rest of the hangers on, allied to the fact most of the good managers have jobs which leads me to think getting rid as of now would be a bad move. His record is increasingly looking extremely patchy, his recent transfer dealings dodgy at best, his man management skills questionable, and his judgement flawed. Lets wait until the end of the season though, and see if he can prove I've been wrong all these years.

by **LFC2007** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:06 am

bigmick wrote:Lets wait until the end of the season though, and see if he can prove I've been wrong all these years.

by **Sabre** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:08 am

I honestly think that once Rafa has Mascherano, Gerrard, Aqua, and Torres together, he'll keep the noticeable policy of rotating less he adopted last year. In fact, as LFC mentioned earlier, I think part of the reasons not to play Gerrard in CM was not to break the partnership with Torres, who scored plenty together.

So I don't think rotation will be a concern, and then we will see how works Rafa's team.

After 4 defeats Mick I can't ask a true fan like yourself not being fuming. You have the right to be fuming like every fan in the world in that situation. But I think you know that once we recover our men, and not choping and changing them much, we'll see a very improved team.

I quote that happily because after reading so much criticism we might forget that in summer we all agreed that we had done some progress (too slow perhaps), that Alonso wasn't as irreplaceable as we may think, and that rotating less had benefited the team. Let's see what happens when the Italian guy comes, then.

by **bigmick** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:08 am

LFC2007 wrote:
bigmick wrote:Lets wait until the end of the season though, and see if he can prove I've been wrong all these years.

Don't know why I'm laughing really but what's funny aboiut that

by **tubby** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:11 am

bigmick wrote:
bavlondon wrote:1.The problem is we have lost balance since Xabi left

2. and Lucas is not good enough to fill that void till Aquilani is fit.

3. On top of that we are playing 10 yards further up the pitch this season and our cb's are having problems adjusting.

4. A few defeats and the confidence goes and that is where we find ourselves now. We need to beat the mancs on Sunday.

Fecking hell . This is like pulling teeth sometimes.

I've split your post up Bav.

1. about the "balance". we haven't lost it in all games, only the ones where Gerrard hasn't played in central midfield. As to the fact that we didn't sign a replacement for Alonso who was ready to step up, who's fault is that exactly? I know, it's the owners.

2. Lucas not being good enough? Unbelieveable really, who could have forseen that? Given that we now know he isn't good enough to "fill that void" but have lost four times in the league proving it, who's fault is it that we tried it and it didn't work? I know, it's Lucas's fault.

3. We are playing ten yards further up the pitch. We aren't. Our centre backs are having trouble adjusting. They are having trouble adjusting to not having two sitters in front, not having someone who is prepared to take the ball off them, and having a right back who bombs on. I agree with that. Who's fault is it that they haven't managed to come to terms with the adjustments? I know, it's the centre backs fault.

4. A few defeats (the players) and confidence goes (the owners for undermining the manager in the press).

lets continue.

Zonal marking isn't working. Who's fault is it? It's the players. Innit.

Morale is a bit low. Who's fault is that? Gerrards, sh!t captain.

Sergio Aguero is a good player and we didn't sign him. Who's fault? the owners. Gareth Barry? fecking Parry (and the fact that he's a greedy barsterd).

We haven't won any trophies for 3 and half seasons? the owners obviously.

We've gone backwards since last season? Man City's owners.

If any other complaints come up Bav, pass em in my direction and I'll tell em who's fault it is.

Sorry I dnt quite see what you are getting at. Aside from the playing further up the pitch you have basically just added your reasons to my quotes so what you agree with them?

It's all the owners fault and here is the :censored:

reason. If Rafa had been allowed to pursue every single one of primary targets I can guarantee we would not be in this position we are in now. Well I can't guarantee that obviously but when your shopping for top players instead of bargain basement you tend to get more for your money, most of the time anyway.

So there you go it all comes down to the owners.

by **bigmick** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:14 am

Sabre wrote:After 4 defeats Mick I can't ask a true fan like yourself not being fuming. You have the right to be fuming like every fan in the world in that situation.

Funnily enough Sabes, I reckon I'm fuming a whole lot less than most. There are a couple of reasons for that.

Firstly, I'm not massively surprised. I always felt that last season we got the bounce of the ball and then some, and some of Rafa's really silly mistakes (Portsmouth away and 2-1 with a minute to go) were wriggled out of and not mentioned. I ventured the "golden opportunity" theory precisely as a reflection of the fact that IMHO circumstances had been unbelieveably favourable towards us.

Secondly, we've had problems accross the park with various little things, and these things happen in football. Luck has deserted us to a large extent, and our threadbare squad was always going to get found out sooner or later.

So I'm not fuming with the team, nor am I particularly fuming with the manager either. Much bigger a wind up for me if I'm honest is the constant excuse making on here. why we can't just discuss it without people talking about Man Utds team six years ago, or the owners every second word is a mystery to me.

by **bigmick** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:15 am

bavlondon wrote:
bigmick wrote:
bavlondon wrote:1.The problem is we have lost balance since Xabi left

2. and Lucas is not good enough to fill that void till Aquilani is fit.

3. On top of that we are playing 10 yards further up the pitch this season and our cb's are having problems adjusting.

4. A few defeats and the confidence goes and that is where we find ourselves now. We need to beat the mancs on Sunday.

Fecking hell . This is like pulling teeth sometimes.

I've split your post up Bav.

1. about the "balance". we haven't lost it in all games, only the ones where Gerrard hasn't played in central midfield. As to the fact that we didn't sign a replacement for Alonso who was ready to step up, who's fault is that exactly? I know, it's the owners.

2. Lucas not being good enough? Unbelieveable really, who could have forseen that? Given that we now know he isn't good enough to "fill that void" but have lost four times in the league proving it, who's fault is it that we tried it and it didn't work? I know, it's Lucas's fault.

3. We are playing ten yards further up the pitch. We aren't. Our centre backs are having trouble adjusting. They are having trouble adjusting to not having two sitters in front, not having someone who is prepared to take the ball off them, and having a right back who bombs on. I agree with that. Who's fault is it that they haven't managed to come to terms with the adjustments? I know, it's the centre backs fault.

4. A few defeats (the players) and confidence goes (the owners for undermining the manager in the press).

lets continue.

Zonal marking isn't working. Who's fault is it? It's the players. Innit.

Morale is a bit low. Who's fault is that? Gerrards, sh!t captain.

Sergio Aguero is a good player and we didn't sign him. Who's fault? the owners. Gareth Barry? fecking Parry (and the fact that he's a greedy barsterd).

We haven't won any trophies for 3 and half seasons? the owners obviously.

We've gone backwards since last season? Man City's owners.

If any other complaints come up Bav, pass em in my direction and I'll tell em who's fault it is.

Sorry I dnt quite see what you are getting at. Aside from the playing further up the pitch you have basically just added your reasons to my quotes so what you agree with them?

It's all the owners fault and here is the reason. If Rafa had been allowed to pursue every single one of primary targets I can guarantee we would not be in this position we are in now. Well I can't guarantee that obviously but when your shopping for top players instead of bargain basement you tend to get more for your money, most of the time anyway.

So there you go it all comes down to the owners.

Fecking hell I give up.

by **Dazzer** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:43 am

bigmick wrote:
bavlondon wrote:
bigmick wrote:
bavlondon wrote:1.The problem is we have lost balance since Xabi left

2. and Lucas is not good enough to fill that void till Aquilani is fit.

3. On top of that we are playing 10 yards further up the pitch this season and our cb's are having problems adjusting.

4. A few defeats and the confidence goes and that is where we find ourselves now. We need to beat the mancs on Sunday.

Fecking hell . This is like pulling teeth sometimes.

I've split your post up Bav.

1. about the "balance". we haven't lost it in all games, only the ones where Gerrard hasn't played in central midfield. As to the fact that we didn't sign a replacement for Alonso who was ready to step up, who's fault is that exactly? I know, it's the owners.

2. Lucas not being good enough? Unbelieveable really, who could have forseen that? Given that we now know he isn't good enough to "fill that void" but have lost four times in the league proving it, who's fault is it that we tried it and it didn't work? I know, it's Lucas's fault.

3. We are playing ten yards further up the pitch. We aren't. Our centre backs are having trouble adjusting. They are having trouble adjusting to not having two sitters in front, not having someone who is prepared to take the ball off them, and having a right back who bombs on. I agree with that. Who's fault is it that they haven't managed to come to terms with the adjustments? I know, it's the centre backs fault.

4. A few defeats (the players) and confidence goes (the owners for undermining the manager in the press).

lets continue.

Zonal marking isn't working. Who's fault is it? It's the players. Innit.

Morale is a bit low. Who's fault is that? Gerrards, sh!t captain.

Sergio Aguero is a good player and we didn't sign him. Who's fault? the owners. Gareth Barry? fecking Parry (and the fact that he's a greedy barsterd).

We haven't won any trophies for 3 and half seasons? the owners obviously.

We've gone backwards since last season? Man City's owners.

If any other complaints come up Bav, pass em in my direction and I'll tell em who's fault it is.

Sorry I dnt quite see what you are getting at. Aside from the playing further up the pitch you have basically just added your reasons to my quotes so what you agree with them?

It's all the owners fault and here is the reason. If Rafa had been allowed to pursue every single one of primary targets I can guarantee we would not be in this position we are in now. Well I can't guarantee that obviously but when your shopping for top players instead of bargain basement you tend to get more for your money, most of the time anyway.

So there you go it all comes down to the owners.

Fecking hell I give up.

by **aCe'** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:33 am

To be honest, i quite like our buys in the summer... 38mill, 2 players who imo drastically improve our starting 11... the catch is/was that we havent been able to afford some of the other buys we would have liked...

Dont get me wrong, i still think Johnson is overpriced at 18mill, and i still think that signing Aquilani who was injured for 3months should have meant we sign an experienced player to fill the Alonso void until the Italian is back, but all in all when it comes to the players we bought, i think that the least i can give the manager on this one is that 'he didnt waste the money like he usually does.'

I dont think we lost 4 in the league and 2 in the CL because of the owners, dont think we lost those games because of Lucas, dont think we lost them because Gerrard and Torres were injured (sure 2 of the games had alot to do with the injuries)... to me it all comes down to how Benitez decided to setup the team in the different occasions, and how he quite frankly fcked that up...

by **Lando_Griffin** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:00 am

heimdall wrote:1.) I'd actually try to play Babel or Bennayoun there, just to give a bit of energy to the midfield

2.) Anyway does anybody want to try defending Rafa for taking off Bennayoun and putting on Voronin with a few minutes to go?

1.) Oh Heimdall, you really don't have a clue, do you? :blush:

2.) Benayoun couldn't possibly have been tired, could he? :oops:

by **Lando_Griffin** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:06 am

DAV wrote:just a quick response. When fergie leaves man utd. Will no one want that job because of their debt which is alot more than ours? ? And their idiot of an owner?

Do you have a brain?

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